Tyr Anazasi
Banned
The Baltics are out of the game for the time being. Lenin wants to capture them as well, but Germany is the far bigger reward.
No Miracle at the Vistula
- Thread starter Tyr Anazasi
- Start date
The Baltics are out of the game for the time being. Lenin wants to capture them as well, but Germany is the far bigger reward.
Tyr Anazasi
Banned
In 1919 this would have been a possibility. In 1920, well, we'll see. Oh, there were fights with Commies in 1920 in Saxony and Prussian Saxony, Anhalt and Thuringia. The question is, if that can, again become a revolution. You'll see.
It is good that the Germans politely had the French leave. I am assuming that the Soviets would be sending scouts ahead. I wonder if the French would secretly aid the Soviet scouts as a way to make life difficult as possible for the Germans. With the French goes, the German's have better control of their terrority.
"For Capitaine Marron the duty in Upper Silesia was both, a happy and dull one. Happy, as he was in a position to make the Germans the way of life as difficult as possible- and dull, as really nothing happened."
"For Capitaine Marron the duty in Upper Silesia was both, a happy and dull one. Happy, as he was in a position to make the Germans the way of life as difficult as possible- and dull, as really nothing happened."
Chapter 7: Communist Considerations
Tyr Anazasi
Banned
A Kneipe in Berlin-Wedding, September 2nd 1920, 19:33:
The Kneipe (Inn) was full with workers. It was a place where most guests, if not all, were KPD members. Many of them sang proudly the songs of world revolution. Much beer was drunk that night. Many celebrated the victories of the Soviet Armies in Poland. That the leaders of the KPS, Heinrich Brandler and Paul Levi, met in a quiet corner most did not regard.
HB: So, we're under heavy pressure from Moscow to start our own revolution.
PL: It is too early. Or too late. Yes- he drank a little beer- it is too late. In 1919 there was a chance. Now we don't have it. This... putschism doesn't change anything.
HB: You're right. We won't win. We have simply no chance. We're too few.
PL: It would change, when the Soviets were crossing the Oder.
HB: Yes, it would. However, Lenin demands we should rise up in a few days, when the Red Army launches their attack.
PL: It's insane. When the Red Army crosses the Oder we're already history.
HB: IF the Red Army comes so far.
PL: Yes. When looking into the reports they seem to win every battle due to their heroic deeds. But when reading between the lines they use too often bayonet charges. That means their supply is strained.
HB: And with the Reichswehr mobilized, even stronger than today, they will be crushed, no matter how many soldiers are sent to the front.
PL: Yes. Our uprising would be too early and will fail. Then the Soviets will be beaten and the KPD will be destroyed, at least for some time.
HB: Indeed. We can only try to save the KPD.
PL: I concur. And there is something else. I heard some rumors. If the Soviets really acted like wild beasts in Poland, they might do here as well.
HB: Hmm, I hope the reports are wrong, but... No, if they did they won't be considered as liberators.
PL: We simply have no chance than to keep silent.
HB: Yes. We should do nothing and wait. But Lenin won't be very amused.
PL: No, not at all. And his work I have to criticize as well. He isn't working like Marx did. He needs to make a civil revolution and not a socialistic. It is too early.
HB: He won't hear. He didn't listen on Rosa and won't listen on us.
PL: So we agree to do nothing?
HB: Yes. I thought it was clear. I fear that will have consequences.
PL: Yes. But for the party and world revolution we have to pay it.
HB: Yes, we do.
PL: Hopefully someone else does nothing stupid...
The Kneipe (Inn) was full with workers. It was a place where most guests, if not all, were KPD members. Many of them sang proudly the songs of world revolution. Much beer was drunk that night. Many celebrated the victories of the Soviet Armies in Poland. That the leaders of the KPS, Heinrich Brandler and Paul Levi, met in a quiet corner most did not regard.
HB: So, we're under heavy pressure from Moscow to start our own revolution.
PL: It is too early. Or too late. Yes- he drank a little beer- it is too late. In 1919 there was a chance. Now we don't have it. This... putschism doesn't change anything.
HB: You're right. We won't win. We have simply no chance. We're too few.
PL: It would change, when the Soviets were crossing the Oder.
HB: Yes, it would. However, Lenin demands we should rise up in a few days, when the Red Army launches their attack.
PL: It's insane. When the Red Army crosses the Oder we're already history.
HB: IF the Red Army comes so far.
PL: Yes. When looking into the reports they seem to win every battle due to their heroic deeds. But when reading between the lines they use too often bayonet charges. That means their supply is strained.
HB: And with the Reichswehr mobilized, even stronger than today, they will be crushed, no matter how many soldiers are sent to the front.
PL: Yes. Our uprising would be too early and will fail. Then the Soviets will be beaten and the KPD will be destroyed, at least for some time.
HB: Indeed. We can only try to save the KPD.
PL: I concur. And there is something else. I heard some rumors. If the Soviets really acted like wild beasts in Poland, they might do here as well.
HB: Hmm, I hope the reports are wrong, but... No, if they did they won't be considered as liberators.
PL: We simply have no chance than to keep silent.
HB: Yes. We should do nothing and wait. But Lenin won't be very amused.
PL: No, not at all. And his work I have to criticize as well. He isn't working like Marx did. He needs to make a civil revolution and not a socialistic. It is too early.
HB: He won't hear. He didn't listen on Rosa and won't listen on us.
PL: So we agree to do nothing?
HB: Yes. I thought it was clear. I fear that will have consequences.
PL: Yes. But for the party and world revolution we have to pay it.
HB: Yes, we do.
PL: Hopefully someone else does nothing stupid...
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I am glad to see this post. I am sure that there are people on the right who would love to crush the KPD if given the excuse.
I am wondering how binding is this decision on the KPD in different parts of Germany. Does this decision apply to the KPD in the Ruhr valley or in Bavaria? Or does the KPD in each region in Germany have some ability to make a different decision on their own.
I am wondering how binding is this decision on the KPD in different parts of Germany. Does this decision apply to the KPD in the Ruhr valley or in Bavaria? Or does the KPD in each region in Germany have some ability to make a different decision on their own.
Tyr Anazasi
Banned
The decision was made by the two chairmen of the KPD. However, the other leadership has to agree as well. And as Germany is a federal state there are other local leaders as well. They can make other decisions.
... or rather ... 
B-29_Bomber
Banned
When the Soviets invade the German Right might just use this as an excuse to purge Germany of the KPD, regardless of what the KPD does.
Chapter 8: The Fall of Danzig, September 3rd 1920
Tyr Anazasi
Banned
OOC: Sometimes the best possibility is quoting someone. LOTLOF made it better than I could make, so I had to make it canon in TTL.
At nine o'clock the Soviet forces attacked. The 1st battle squadron, HMS Warspite, HMS Malaya, HMS Barham and HMS Valiant, did give heavy artillery support. Groups of Soviet soldiers disappeared, when a 15" shell hit them. Still there were even more to replace them. In the end it didn't matter much. At least in Stalin's eyes. They could break the line of the British brigade and the Danziger Heimwehr as well as some Polish units. At 15:00 the British forces were on the run. At 18:00 Danzig had fallen, except some parts near the harbour, where the British still resisted in order to evacuate. However, mere 300 men made it out.
The Soviet soldiers conducted like Barbarians. They killed randomly people, they raped, looted and did other crimes. For the next two days it was an orgy of violence. John Heartfield, who had been sent by the KPD to make pictures of the "glorious conquest", saw the horror. He made pictures, yes, he did. But when released a few days later, not in a KPD newspaper but Vossische Zeitung, it had consequences.
Thank you for quoting LOTLOF. I do miss him and his timelines.
Hopefully the photos of the "Rape of Danzig" will stop any KPD hotheads from giving the Right a reason to crack down on them. If l was in the leadership, I would condemn the "Rape of Danzig" in the strongest terms and make it clear that the KPD are Germans first and communist second.
The question remains if the German government will order a round up of KPD members when the Soviet Army invades.
Hopefully the photos of the "Rape of Danzig" will stop any KPD hotheads from giving the Right a reason to crack down on them. If l was in the leadership, I would condemn the "Rape of Danzig" in the strongest terms and make it clear that the KPD are Germans first and communist second.
The question remains if the German government will order a round up of KPD members when the Soviet Army invades.
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Chapter 9: Diplomatic Talks
Tyr Anazasi
Banned
Paris, September 6th 1920, 08:45:
Special ambassador Walther Rathenau sat in his hotel room having his breakfast. He read the newspapers, mostly the British and French ones. The headlines sometimes said everything: "Rape of Danzig. What does our government do?" Daily Telegraph "Anglo-French talks about German breach of Versailles Treaty at a dead end" Le Figaro. He could read on, but the positions of the Entente powers became clearer and clearer. The French wanted to give no help. In the very contrast. Millerand seemed to try to help the Poles by an intervention, an intervention, which needed the mobilization, a step very unpopular. The Left was leaning towards the Soviets and the Right wanted to keep the left under control. And Germany down. Predictable. The British wanted to intervene, but had no possibilities, given the unions already threatened to strike. Here, too, no possibility of an entry was given. However, they wanted to keep the Soviets out as well. And so they hoped the Germans would make the dirty work. Again. He sighed. Yes, we need to do this. But how? Versailles would quasi enchain the Germans. He even thought about a German soldier trying to fire his rifle enchained. If it wasn't so true one could only laugh.
"Herr Botschafter, the car is ready." he heard his assistant.
"Very well. I am coming. And now you can learn something. Either this is a masterpiece of diplomacy or a catastrophe." he said. He hoped the first. But he wasn't sure. At least the Entente powers were already split. Japan and Italy were in favour of the German steps. They even offered their help. For a nice price, of course. Nice for them. And also Britain and France were not agreeing. He had waited two more days until yesterday evening a letter came. He knew, he had to be soft and hard in the very same moment. Bismarck and Talleyrand at the very same time.
He was greeted at the Elysée Palace with all honours of his rank and was soon led to the room, where Millerand and Lloyd-George waited on him. At least he could sit down. The French seemed to become more polite.
ML: Boche, do you think we are fools? The ink on the Versailles Treaty isn't dry and you break it already.
Millerand acted in a direct manner. He was furious, and that was an advantage for Rathenau. Personally he wanted to beat him, but he had to keep his emotions at bay.
WR: Monsieur, I would want to keep this talk civilized. And as France is considered a great a civilized nation, I have to say: Language, sir.
Rathenau made a small pause. Millerand's head was becoming redder and redder, but he said nothing.
WR: If you speak about the emergency acts our government had to enforce...
ML: This is a serious break of the Versailles Treaty.
WR: As you know, we're going to defend ourselves against an enemy coming from the East. An enemy, who raped Lodz, Danzig...
ML: Stop it. We gave you an army to defend yourself.
WR: You gave us an army to keep law and order, but no army to defend ourselves.
ML: We did not fight you for four years to see our enemy resurrect.
WR: Our Landwehr is a purely defensive force...
ML: Bah. Do you think I am a fool? You can tell any soldier to go anywhere. A force is as defensive or as offensive as the power behind.
WR: Monsieur, we need to defend ourselves and thus we need to do every step necessary doing so.
ML: We have our men in the Rhineland. We can move them on.
WR: Yes, it is your right to have the men in the Rhineland. However, if you send your men into the Ruhr you would break the treaty. In this very moment we would call the whole treaty null and void. We will resist.
ML: Then you loose. You have no chance.
Millerand was satisfied. He thought he had Rathenau in the corner.
WR: Yes, unfortunately you're right. You will win very likely.
Rathenau could really see Millerand being surprised. It seemed he hadn't expected this answer but a kind of Übermensch-beating-the-French-answer.
WR: As you know, we can't defend against you. You will win. We can't defeat you. However, if you do so, you have to fight the combined powers of the Soviet masses and the German industry under their control. I wish you luck.
Touché! Millerand looked like someone biting into a lemon. This moment was very satisfying for Rathenau, but he knew he had to keep on. Until now David Llyod-George had been silent. But now he felt entitled to enter the negotiation.
LG: I don't think anyone of us wants to restart the war. We should calm down.
With these two sentences he had betrayed France. Millerand was on the way to declare war on Germany. And he gave the only real trump away, the threatening of war. Also a consequence of Millerand's emotional attack. To his defense Rathenau had to admit, Millerand was under severe pressure. Still, that was a severe error he could exploit now. If he was cautious.
LG: We are only concerned about the sudden rearmament.
WR: I can feel with you, but we were forced to act, and that as soon as possible. Simply the forces you left us are insufficient to defend Germany properly. We have to fight a strong adversary. That means, of course, only if you don't declare war on the Soviets as well.
LG: We ordered a blockade of Russia.
Yes, but they did not declare war. They are bombarding the positions of the Soviets at Danzig from time to time, but the German offer to intervene was still not answered. And it was better this way, even if it meant Danzig had to suffer. On this way the League of Nations had shown the complete inability to act in defense of the city.
ML: We're preparing a mobilization.
Yes, but he can't mobilize, Rathenau thought.
WR: Simple, if you want to prevent the Soviets capturing Paris, we need some leeway and support.
ML: Support? After what you did to Reims? Belgium? You want support? How dare you!
WR: Well, then Monsieur, I suggest you to mobilize, as the Reds will come soon.
Millerand's face looked like someone with a red skin beating into a lemon. Again. And again he did not make a comment.
LG: I think I have to make it clear, that any unilateral steps from the German government are- unfortunate. They can't be accepted. However, while the treaty still being valid, we might need to talk about some changes. It is in our very interest to keep the Soviets out of Europe.
Millerand didn't comment it. He didn't object either. And it was clear, what word was especially pronounced. Rathenau felt, he was on the winning side. This alone was a big achievement. Versailles was not negotiated. And now one could enter negotiations. At least some parts could be removed. Good. He was very pleased. But he needed not to reveal that. He needed to know the British interests. He hoped his own assistants had made a good list of possible interests. One would see. The French would never agree to anything. But even an informal agreement with Britain would be worth. Without Britain France would not move.
*****************
For the next week the negotiations would take place. But no agreement could be found in these days. For Germany it didn't matter. The more time passed without French interfere the better.
Special ambassador Walther Rathenau sat in his hotel room having his breakfast. He read the newspapers, mostly the British and French ones. The headlines sometimes said everything: "Rape of Danzig. What does our government do?" Daily Telegraph "Anglo-French talks about German breach of Versailles Treaty at a dead end" Le Figaro. He could read on, but the positions of the Entente powers became clearer and clearer. The French wanted to give no help. In the very contrast. Millerand seemed to try to help the Poles by an intervention, an intervention, which needed the mobilization, a step very unpopular. The Left was leaning towards the Soviets and the Right wanted to keep the left under control. And Germany down. Predictable. The British wanted to intervene, but had no possibilities, given the unions already threatened to strike. Here, too, no possibility of an entry was given. However, they wanted to keep the Soviets out as well. And so they hoped the Germans would make the dirty work. Again. He sighed. Yes, we need to do this. But how? Versailles would quasi enchain the Germans. He even thought about a German soldier trying to fire his rifle enchained. If it wasn't so true one could only laugh.
"Herr Botschafter, the car is ready." he heard his assistant.
"Very well. I am coming. And now you can learn something. Either this is a masterpiece of diplomacy or a catastrophe." he said. He hoped the first. But he wasn't sure. At least the Entente powers were already split. Japan and Italy were in favour of the German steps. They even offered their help. For a nice price, of course. Nice for them. And also Britain and France were not agreeing. He had waited two more days until yesterday evening a letter came. He knew, he had to be soft and hard in the very same moment. Bismarck and Talleyrand at the very same time.
He was greeted at the Elysée Palace with all honours of his rank and was soon led to the room, where Millerand and Lloyd-George waited on him. At least he could sit down. The French seemed to become more polite.
ML: Boche, do you think we are fools? The ink on the Versailles Treaty isn't dry and you break it already.
Millerand acted in a direct manner. He was furious, and that was an advantage for Rathenau. Personally he wanted to beat him, but he had to keep his emotions at bay.
WR: Monsieur, I would want to keep this talk civilized. And as France is considered a great a civilized nation, I have to say: Language, sir.
Rathenau made a small pause. Millerand's head was becoming redder and redder, but he said nothing.
WR: If you speak about the emergency acts our government had to enforce...
ML: This is a serious break of the Versailles Treaty.
WR: As you know, we're going to defend ourselves against an enemy coming from the East. An enemy, who raped Lodz, Danzig...
ML: Stop it. We gave you an army to defend yourself.
WR: You gave us an army to keep law and order, but no army to defend ourselves.
ML: We did not fight you for four years to see our enemy resurrect.
WR: Our Landwehr is a purely defensive force...
ML: Bah. Do you think I am a fool? You can tell any soldier to go anywhere. A force is as defensive or as offensive as the power behind.
WR: Monsieur, we need to defend ourselves and thus we need to do every step necessary doing so.
ML: We have our men in the Rhineland. We can move them on.
WR: Yes, it is your right to have the men in the Rhineland. However, if you send your men into the Ruhr you would break the treaty. In this very moment we would call the whole treaty null and void. We will resist.
ML: Then you loose. You have no chance.
Millerand was satisfied. He thought he had Rathenau in the corner.
WR: Yes, unfortunately you're right. You will win very likely.
Rathenau could really see Millerand being surprised. It seemed he hadn't expected this answer but a kind of Übermensch-beating-the-French-answer.
WR: As you know, we can't defend against you. You will win. We can't defeat you. However, if you do so, you have to fight the combined powers of the Soviet masses and the German industry under their control. I wish you luck.
Touché! Millerand looked like someone biting into a lemon. This moment was very satisfying for Rathenau, but he knew he had to keep on. Until now David Llyod-George had been silent. But now he felt entitled to enter the negotiation.
LG: I don't think anyone of us wants to restart the war. We should calm down.
With these two sentences he had betrayed France. Millerand was on the way to declare war on Germany. And he gave the only real trump away, the threatening of war. Also a consequence of Millerand's emotional attack. To his defense Rathenau had to admit, Millerand was under severe pressure. Still, that was a severe error he could exploit now. If he was cautious.
LG: We are only concerned about the sudden rearmament.
WR: I can feel with you, but we were forced to act, and that as soon as possible. Simply the forces you left us are insufficient to defend Germany properly. We have to fight a strong adversary. That means, of course, only if you don't declare war on the Soviets as well.
LG: We ordered a blockade of Russia.
Yes, but they did not declare war. They are bombarding the positions of the Soviets at Danzig from time to time, but the German offer to intervene was still not answered. And it was better this way, even if it meant Danzig had to suffer. On this way the League of Nations had shown the complete inability to act in defense of the city.
ML: We're preparing a mobilization.
Yes, but he can't mobilize, Rathenau thought.
WR: Simple, if you want to prevent the Soviets capturing Paris, we need some leeway and support.
ML: Support? After what you did to Reims? Belgium? You want support? How dare you!
WR: Well, then Monsieur, I suggest you to mobilize, as the Reds will come soon.
Millerand's face looked like someone with a red skin beating into a lemon. Again. And again he did not make a comment.
LG: I think I have to make it clear, that any unilateral steps from the German government are- unfortunate. They can't be accepted. However, while the treaty still being valid, we might need to talk about some changes. It is in our very interest to keep the Soviets out of Europe.
Millerand didn't comment it. He didn't object either. And it was clear, what word was especially pronounced. Rathenau felt, he was on the winning side. This alone was a big achievement. Versailles was not negotiated. And now one could enter negotiations. At least some parts could be removed. Good. He was very pleased. But he needed not to reveal that. He needed to know the British interests. He hoped his own assistants had made a good list of possible interests. One would see. The French would never agree to anything. But even an informal agreement with Britain would be worth. Without Britain France would not move.
*****************
For the next week the negotiations would take place. But no agreement could be found in these days. For Germany it didn't matter. The more time passed without French interfere the better.
Tyr Anazasi
Banned
I already said LOTLOF and historyfool's TL are an inspiration. At some parts I can only add few and this part was so good I had to introduce here as a quote.
Deleted member 1487
Wait how do the Soviets get to Danzig? There was a sizeable defense force there in 1920 to stop them from getting anywhere close and it would mean war with the LoN if the Soviets invaded the Free State. Plus it would trigger German intervention, at very least the local veterans, Freikorps, and militia from East Prussia. I'd think the Freikorps and militia would be all over the place already and Soviet forces would be far too weak to project the necessary forces to overcome all the armed manpower there with naval fire support and an air force:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_City_of_Danzig_Police
Plus how do they get there without entering German territory?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_City_of_Danzig_Police
Plus how do they get there without entering German territory?
General Ripper
Banned
I don't think that any pictures or stories Will undermine the trust od German (or any other) Communists into Comrade Lenin and Workers and Peasants Paradise (TM).
General Ripper
Banned
What's the state of Reichswehr at the moment?
Also, Will it be: Reichswehr against the Russians and Freikorpses against KPD?
Also, Will it be: Reichswehr against the Russians and Freikorpses against KPD?
Tyr Anazasi
Banned
Wait how do the Soviets get to Danzig? There was a sizeable defense force there in 1920 to stop them from getting anywhere close and it would mean war with the LoN if the Soviets invaded the Free State. Plus it would trigger German intervention, at very least the local veterans, Freikorps, and militia from East Prussia. I'd think the Freikorps and militia would be all over the place already and Soviet forces would be far too weak to project the necessary forces to overcome all the armed manpower there with naval fire support and an air force:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_City_of_Danzig_Police
Plus how do they get there without entering German territory?
At first, Stalin has about 150.000 men under his command. That's a force he can take on every opponent in the area. Furthermore the Germans offered the LoN their help. They didn't respond. They feared they could not interfere without the consent of the LoN. So only few forces were sent to Danzig for help as free corps. The forces in East Prussia, about 20.000 men Reichswehr and 40.000 militia just now, were too few to attack Stalin AND defend East Prussia. Therefore Danzig was de facto given up. Also the Germans intend to press the LoN to give it back because of that.
Oh, the small squadron could escape to East Prussia. BTW, currently everyone is blaming the LoN for the fall.