No Miracle at the Vistula

Tyr Anazasi

Banned
These are some ... hefty goals at this point in time. And nowhere near, what a Friedrich Ebert might have in mind (beside the customs union and ofc reparations).

IMO he would aim (just) for revision of the ToV in as many aspects as possible :
- lift/reducing of reparations
- lift/reducing of trade obstacles
- getting back the german merchant fleet (at least for a bigger part)
- regaining sovereignity over the german riverstreets
- lift/reducing of occupation of the Rheinland
- better military conditions (to keep the militaries in germany happy)
- perhaps keeping the corridor german
- perhaps getting back Danzig
- avoiding the plebiscite in Upper Silesia or at least a guarantee for fair conduct of (not as it happened in Eupen-Malmedy)

Perhaps I should make some remarks. There are some short, medium and long term goals:

Short term goals: Everything to keep Germany in the game. Everything to rearm to a level Germany is able to defend herself.

Medium term goals: Lift of all clauses of Versailles

Long term goals: Correction of the borders

As of now everything is in flow. It may be a long term goal can be achieved earlier than a medium term goal.
 
Estonia made peace with the Soviets with the Peace of Tartu on February 2nd 1920, Lithunia is not yet involved, Latvia is also no longer at war with the Soviets, peace of Riga from August 11th 1920 and Finland. The talks with Finland are far, and as Finland had no chance to get much more, they won't continue the war.

I wonder, why wouldn't the Soviets attack them? To protect their right flank...
 
Chapter 6: Ignoring authority

Tyr Anazasi

Banned
Somewhere near Oppeln Upper Silesia, September 2nd, 06:03:

For Capitaine Marron the duty in Upper Silesia was both, a happy and dull one. Happy, as he was in a position to make the Germans the way of life as difficult as possible- and dull, as really nothing happened. There had been an uprising by Polish forces once but that was some time ago. Now he only had to do his duty. And today he was tasked to control this bridge over the Oder river. The night was eventless as always, he was tired and autumn had send first signs. The night was colder than he had expected. He would be home soon though.

"Mon capitaine, please come. There are several Germans here." his sergeant said after entering the hut he had his bureau.

"They shall wait..." Captain Marron could not end the sentence, when three Germans in uniforms entered the room.

"Bonjour monsieur le Capitaine." one of the boches said in best French. "I am Hauptmann Friedrich von Zedlitz-Neukirch from the Selsbstschutz Oberschlesien. According to our convenience with the Entente powers we take over the control over all occupied territory. Because of that I ask you to leave the bridge."

Marron was stunned. Did they really believe that shit. His face became red but before he could say something he should have a look outside. His 20 men were surrounded by 50 Germans. They didn't do anything, but they were in a much better tactical position. He knew, if he ordered to resist, he would have no chance to survive the next five minutes. Reluctantly he gave up and retreated to the next French garrison. Only to see they were surrounded as well.

Treachery!

*****************

On September 2nd 1920 German militias called "Selbstschutz" took control over Upper Silesia, the next districts at the edges of Posen, Soldau and the West Prussian districts Konitz, Berent, Karthaus, Putzig, Graudenz, Greudenz-city, Kulm, Thorn, Thorn-city, Briesen, Strasburg, Löbau and some other territories the Germans had lost to Poland. In no case there was armed opposition.

*****************

The French started at first a series of accusations and threats against the German government, which was rejected, as the Entente was contacted and the units would be free corps. And indeed the British and Italians had agreed to accept the control of Upper Silesia. The French were furious but did not dare to act alone. A small rift within the Entente powers had occured.
 
About that in Upper Silesia, wouldn't it maybe be smarter for the Germans to leave French soldiers there, so if the Soviets attack that area, they will attack and kill French soldiers, and that might get France in the war against Soviets?
 

Deleted member 1487

About that in Upper Silesia, wouldn't it maybe be smarter for the Germans to leave French soldiers there, so if the Soviets attack that area, they will attack and kill French soldiers, and that might get France in the war against Soviets?
Just my opinion, but no, because the Germans actually don't want the French to get involved and recreate Poland and have forces on both of their borders. They can check the Soviets themselves, best to secure your previous borders (and probably some extra) without the Frogs dictating how the war and peace deal should go.
 
Can only agree with wiking here, the Poles will have to face reality. The Entente did nothing to help them so Imo Polish nationalism will have taken a hit. If now the Germans take back their own land, recently lost only, and some extra. It Imo could get, at first, a very positive reaction of the population. Esp. as the Russians may behave like... well Russians realy. (The behavior of them in the war was not stellar AFAIK)

Also if the Entente is involved Imo it will be much harder for Germany to play the "defender against the Red" card. And as I see it the Germans should be very able to handle the Red Army as of now. Hindering Germany to shake the Versaills Dictat off.
 
Just my opinion, but no, because the Germans actually don't want the French to get involved and recreate Poland and have forces on both of their borders. They can check the Soviets themselves, best to secure your previous borders (and probably some extra) without the Frogs dictating how the war and peace deal should go.

They can, if not attacked from the west by France. Now, the French might invent that old saying: "I love Germany so much that I prefer to see two of them" prematurely and try to revive old French-Russian alliance.
 

Deleted member 1487

They can, if not attacked from the west by France. Now, the French might invent that old saying: "I love Germany so much, that I want to have two Germanies" prematurely..
Not without British say so and the US wouldn't like that either; both have major leverage over French finances, so acting unilaterally wouldn't work out so well; as it was IOTL in 1923 during the Ruhr Occupation the British and US yanked the finance chain to get France to back down.
 
Rathenau is a competent man.

But what about the German Communists? There were uprisings in OTL 1920, why not here, if the world revolution is next door now?
 
The French started at first a series of accusations and threats against the German government, which was rejected, as the Entente was contacted and the units would be free corps. And indeed the British and Italians had agreed to accept the control of Upper Silesia. The French were furious but did not dare to act alone. A small rift within the Entente powers had occured.

Perfide Albion !
That pretty dumb for the english, they accept this without consulting their main ally on the continent ? I know that they only want "balance of power" but they still need an ally (and the broken and still instable Germany can't be this) and this Soviet Union is beginning to be scary .
Noneless, it's a good story, i just hope this won't fall into the category "Good Germany with his friend Good Great Britain will rule the world after destroying the stubborn and "evil" French who want to exploit the poor german people"
 
The Soviets are probably going to be hurting if they go all-out on Germany. IIRC the Soviet home front wasl already coming apart due to war communism, they can't sustain the war properly past '21.
And yeah, Lenin IS drunk on victory. Had he taken Warsaw in 1919, he might have been able to link up with the German and Hungarian revolutions. But by now its far too late.
 

Tyr Anazasi

Banned
Perfide Albion !
That pretty dumb for the english, they accept this without consulting their main ally on the continent ? I know that they only want "balance of power" but they still need an ally (and the broken and still instable Germany can't be this) and this Soviet Union is beginning to be scary .

The problem is, that this decision was made mostly by the local officials, who simply didn't want to fight the Soviets and thus were eager to accept. Furthermore the relationship to the French was already strained. The government is backing the decision, as socialist actions take also place in Britain, to a lower extent. However, the British don't want to fight yet another war, especially as Ireland is next to them. Italy as well. For Britain the French behaviour in regards to Germany was a bit too much. That the French are now not amused is obvious.

OTOH Millerand still hoped to mobilize to help the Poles on his own just to prevent a German remilitarization and to have the possibility to strike Germany again. If some French soldiers died he thought he would get a casus belli. Now the French just retreat to Czechia.

This will be revealed in the post, where Rathenau has to play Bismarck and Talleyrand at the very same time.

Noneless, it's a good story, i just hope this won't fall into the category "Good Germany with his friend Good Great Britain will rule the world after destroying the stubborn and "evil" French who want to exploit the poor german people"

No, that won't happen. :evilsmile: Who needs the British?:evilsmile:;)
 

Deleted member 1487

Perfide Albion !
That pretty dumb for the english, they accept this without consulting their main ally on the continent ? I know that they only want "balance of power" but they still need an ally (and the broken and still instable Germany can't be this) and this Soviet Union is beginning to be scary .
Noneless, it's a good story, i just hope this won't fall into the category "Good Germany with his friend Good Great Britain will rule the world after destroying the stubborn and "evil" French who want to exploit the poor german people"
By 1920 the relationship with France was already fraying and the Brits were not particularly friendly with the French anymore. They were always interested in a balance of power and with France losing it's utility a weakened Germany sans Navy was actually a much more useful proxy on the continent for them to contain the Soviet, while they never had particularly much concern for the Poles unlike the French. Quickly the Brits post-war realized that without the threat of the German navy and with the threat of an aggressive USSR, French and British strategic interests diverged heavily. France's number 1 concern was a resurgent Germany, while the Brits wanted a recovered Germany to check the Soviets and be a market for their goods, just so long as they didn't threaten Britain as sea or threaten to dominate the continent. It was largely the same issue when Chamberlain worked to rehabilitate Germany under Hitler from 1935 onwards until Hitler started going beyond acceptable boundaries in 1939. In the 1920s there was a major fallout with France over issues like reparations and restrictions on Germany as early as 1920.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1920_in_France
The differences between the French and British governments were also apparent at the beginning of April, when the German government was suppressing the Spartacist revolt. To the east of the Allied armies in the occupied portion of Germany there was a neutral zone, into which, by the terms of the Treaty of Versailles, the German government were not allowed to send troops. During the Spartacist insurrection which followed the coup d'état in Berlin (see 1920 in Germany), the revolutionaries in the valley of the Ruhr, a highly industrialized district which was included in the neutral zone, took advantage of the unavoidable absence of the government forces to seize control of the entire administration of this important part of Germany. The German government applied for permission to send forces into this part of the neutral zone in the exceptional circumstances which had arisen, as without doing so it was impossible for them to overcome the revolt in the neutral zone itself, or to prevent the successful insurrection in that zone lending important support to the Spartacists farther east. The British, Italian, and American governments were all in favour of allowing the German government, which in the circumstances existing was a bulwark against the spread of Bolshevism, to send a limited number of troops into the neutral zone until law and order had been reestablished there. The French government, however, interposed obstacles to the granting of any such license to the German government. The revolt continued to spread, and at the beginning of April German troops marched into the Ruhr Valley to restore order, although no permission for them to do so had been granted by the Allies as a whole. Thereupon the French government, without the consent of the British and Italian governments, ordered their own troops to march forward into the neutral zone - though not into the same part of the neutral zone - and to occupy various German towns as a penalty for the German advance. Frankfurt, Darmstadt, and Hanau were occupied on 6 April, and Homburg was entered on the following day. Black troops took part in the advance, a point which gave special umbrage to the Germans. This independent action on the part of the French government led to an interchange of somewhat sharp notes between London and Paris, the British government taking exception both to the French advance in itself and still more so to the fact that the advance had been made without due consultation with the other Allied governments. Within a few days, however, an agreement between the French and British governments was reached. The black troops were immediately withdrawn, and the French government made it clear that in the future they would not act without securing the consent of the other Allies. The British government on their side made it clear that they intended to see the terms of the Treaty of Versailles respected by the German government. After the suppression of the Ruhr revolt, both the German and French troops were withdrawn.

During the spring and summer there were various conferences between the French, British, and other Allied governments, at San Remo, Hythe, Spa, and elsewhere, these conferences relating largely to the reparations due from Germany under the terms of the Treaty of Versailles. At these discussions similar differences of opinion appear to have existed between the British and French representatives, the British being more disposed than the French to recognize the difficulties with which the German government were confronted. But these differences of opinion only related to questions of method, and were in no way fundamental. In the middle of May Poincaré, the ex-president of France, resigned his position as president of the Reparations Commission, on account of what he regarded as the undue leniency which had been shown towards Germany. Millerand stated publicly, however, that he thought Poincaré's fears were groundless.

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/026569149602600103?journalCode=ehqb
026569149602600103.fp.png_v03.png
 
I wonder, why wouldn't the Soviets attack them? To protect their right flank...

...From nations they are already at peace with?

Anyway, would the Soviets have enough troops and resources at this point to attack the Baltics as well? They are facing food shortages and mutinies in the areas they control as it is, as a result of several years of war and civil war. Opening up new fronts in areas they had just managed to quiet down through negotiations might not be the smartest move.
 

Deleted member 1487

...From nations they are already at peace with?

Anyway, would the Soviets have enough troops and resources at this point to attack the Baltics as well? They are facing food shortages and mutinies in the areas they control as it is, as a result of several years of war and civil war. Opening up new fronts in areas they had just managed to quiet down through negotiations might not be the smartest move.
Besides Lenin wants to focus on 'liberating' Germany from the capitalists/reactionaries and gain access to their industry and skills to develop the USSR. The Baltics can be left for later once Germany is secured.
 
Besides Lenin wants to focus on 'liberating' Germany from the capitalists/reactionaries and gain access to their industry and skills to develop the USSR. The Baltics can be left for later once Germany is secured.

Germany is the next domino piece for the world revolution.

I doubt Tyr will go for it, but I would like to see the TL go that way.
(Storywise, not a political statement)
 
The Battle of Warsaw, August 12th-26th 1920

For Tomasz Nowak, Rotmistrz (Captain), of the Polish cavalry, the day of August 14th had been a day, which began promising. For the first time since his promotion a few days earlier he led his men, 81, into the battle. He crossed the Wkra river as part of General Sikorski's 5th Polish army. Tomasz had seen few battles before and only got the post because three officers before him had been killed. Still he had panache and let his unit attack the enemy.

However, this day and the next the Polish 5th Army was nevertheless able to retake Nasielsk, but they came not further. The town was completely destroyed. Indeed they came to a halt. That had consequences for the next phase.

On August 16th the Polish reserve army under Pilsudski attacked and could advance. However, their attack was halted by forces, which had opposed the 5th army before and were transferred to this part of the front. The 5th army was no longer able to conduct offensive actions. And the next day would see, who would prevail, as both sides were exhausted. As the Polish reserve army had more supplies and faces a weakened enemy, Sikorski thought, they would succeed.

In the end he was wrong. The cavalry corps under Budjonny, who had been forced by Tuchatschewsky to join him, attacked the Poles. This attack led to the catastrophe. Although the Poles had found some morale in the fights, they lost even more now. The "Attack of the Red Cossacks" would bring the end as some units paniked. Pilsudki's reserve army was driven back. Indeed they retreated to Warsaw, which was enclosed two days after.

The Polish 5th army was forced to retreat, and the retreat became a route. There was no real base any more to retreat. Tomasz had survived the fights. However, his panache was lost. He had seen reality and still saw the Soviet soldier, whom he had hit with the sabre in the neck. The blood. The eyes becoming wider and wider. Of his 81 men only little more than 40 were left. His way was west, in the hope to regain contact with the leadership.

However, this leadership did not exist any more. In August 26th Warsaw had surrendered and Pilsudski was shot as were most of the generals and high politicians. Poland had no longer a working government. The armies were dispanding and fleeing west. As did the civilians.

On August 27th, Czechoslovakian forces crossed the border with Poland and occupied about 600 km² territory. It seemed they had secretly made some negotiations with the Soviets, as Soviet forces did not enter the territory.

The very same day there were conferences in many state's governments. The most important being in Berlin and Moscow.
*Reads first chapter*:
Also:
 
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