No maleline cadet Capets

Basically, come 1328 there are no direct male to male descendants of Phillip III of France.
So no Phillip Count of Valois or Phillip Count of Evreux.
Assuming minimal changes wrt to OTL leading up to 1328 how is the French succession crisis resolved?
 
Basically, come 1328 there are no direct male to male descendants of Phillip III of France.
So no Phillip Count of Valois or Phillip Count of Evreux.
Assuming minimal changes wrt to OTL leading up to 1328 how is the French succession crisis resolved?
Well, there's still the Courtenay, the Bourgogne, Bourbon, Artois, Anjou, and the Dreux as agnatic descendants. Are we not counting them?
 
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That's what I meant.

Honestly it'd be a mess since Charles daughter was an infant, and bypassing her for one of Philippe's daughters could be problematic as well.
Exactly. Declaring agnatic succession OTL was a useful way to justify why Jeanne and the other royal daughters were not only bumped but their descendants also. And was simple to follow too.
TTL they don't have that.
A large number might back Jeanne as the first Queen Regnant.
 
Basically, come 1328 there are no direct male to male descendants of Phillip III of France.
So no Phillip Count of Valois or Phillip Count of Evreux.
Assuming minimal changes wrt to OTL leading up to 1328 how is the French succession crisis resolved?
Then, we go one step up to Louis IX's descendance, basically the House of Bourbon three centuries in advance on OTL.
We have Louis, Duke of Bourbon, son of Robert of Clermont, last surviving son of Louis IX (died in 1317): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_I,_Duke_of_Bourbon .
 
Would they be considered though?
Bear in mind the agnatic only rule came in with the Valois.

If it means that keeps a foreign monarch out? That might very well happen. If it means a weaker monarch at the expense of the other great houses, that wouldn't be bad either. If needed, why not return to elective....
 
The only way for the Hundred years war to be won is for one of the sons of the Plantagenets just be assigned France for Example, Edward the Black Prince is declared as the King of France and his brother Lionel is the King of England,. you don't exactly need a no Agnatic heirs scenario.
 
Let's take a look at possibles.
  • Joan, b1311, daughter of Louis X and Margaret of Burgundy, claimant to Navarre, Champagne and Brie. Previously ruled out after John I for being female and underage.
  • Isabelle b1292, daughter of Philip IV. Female and passed her claim to son Edward III of England.
  • Joan b1308, daughter of Phillip V, married to her Eudes IV of Burgundy. Female but has a 5yo son Phillip. Countess of Burgundy and Artois.
  • Margaret b1310, daughter of Phillip V, married to Louis II of Flanders. Female and no kids.
  • Isabelle, b1312, daughter of Phillip V, married to Guigues/Guido VIII Dauphin of Vienne. Possibly pregnant or infant son as born bc23-33.
  • Blanche, b1313. Female and a nun.
  • Blanche b1328, daughter of Charles IV. Infant female.
  • Daughters of Charles Count of Anjou, son of Phillip III, and Margaret Countess of Anjou, Princess of Naples. Various marriages and issue to French nobles affected by butterflies.
  • Daughters of Charles of Valois and Catherine Latin Empress. Various marriages and issue to French nobles affected by butterflies.
  • Daughters of Louis Count of Evreux, son of Phillip III. Various marriages and issue to French nobles affected by butterflies.
  • Thomas Earl of Norfolk, son of Louis Evreux's sister and Edward I of England.
  • Edmund Earl of Kent, son of Louis Evreux's sister and Edward I of England.
  • Louis I Duke of Bourbon, b1279, only daughters in this scenario. Marriages etc affected by butterflies.
  • Eudes iv of Burgundy is also a grandson of Louis IX via Princess Agnes who died 1327. He backed Joan's claims to Champagne and possibly Navarre.

I expect a ruling out of foreign born, discouraging all foreign nobles but Edward III.
 
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The only way for the Hundred years war to be won is for one of the sons of the Plantagenets just be assigned France for Example, Edward the Black Prince is declared as the King of France and his brother Lionel is the King of England,. you don't exactly need a no Agnatic heirs scenario.

I can't figure out why this would enable the Plantagenets to win the Hundred Years' War.

I can't either see why it would make the prospect of a dynastic change more acceptable. The laws of gravity would anyway have made France the center of the Plantagenet power, just as England became for the Stuarts.

It rather seems to me that Edward III, by going to war against the kingdom of France not to become its king but to snatch away the former Plantagenet fiefs in France and have full sovereignty over these fiefs wrecked any possibility to be accepted as legitimate king of France.

And anyway, by no way could the offsprings of Isabelle be considered as legitimate heirs of the kingdom of France.

Because if the french ruling elite had not devised the so called Salic Law trick, then the grandchildren of Philip V, i.e. the dukes of Burgundy would have had precedence over the Plantagenet (Joan of Navarre, daughter of Louis X, having no son in 1328 yet).
 
I can't figure out why this would enable the Plantagenets to win the Hundred Years' War.

I can't either see why it would make the prospect of a dynastic change more acceptable. The laws of gravity would anyway have made France the center of the Plantagenet power, just as England became for the Stuarts.

It rather seems to me that Edward III, by going to war against the kingdom of France not to become its king but to snatch away the former Plantagenet fiefs in France and have full sovereignty over these fiefs wrecked any possibility to be accepted as legitimate king of France.

And anyway, by no way could the offsprings of Isabelle be considered as legitimate heirs of the kingdom of France.

Because if the french ruling elite had not devised the so called Salic Law trick, then the grandchildren of Philip V, i.e. the dukes of Burgundy would have had precedence over the Plantagenet (Joan of Navarre, daughter of Louis X, having no son in 1328 yet).


Joan is the Queen of Navarre, I think Edward III could have married her instead of Philippa, I think the only way that the Plantagenets can have their Fiefs is that the Fiefs not having personal union with England, a separate line rules the fiefs instead.
 
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Joan is the Queen of Navarre, I think Edward III could have married her instead of Philippa, I think the only way that the Plantagenets can have their Fiefs is that the Fiefs not having personal union with France, a separate line rules the fiefs instead.

I think you mean "the fiefs not having personal union with England."

If this marriage had occurred, then I think the ruling elites of France would have invented a trick to have someone else than her be recognized as number one in the line of succession to the french royal crown.

All this was not about law or custom. It was about realpolitiks. Law or custom, in such cases, is nothing but a veil that is adapted or twisted in order to legitimize the political solution that the ruling elite wants to implement.

The point was that, by 1328, the Plantagenets had demonstrated for 2 centuries to the rest of the french nobility that their goal was to dismantle the kingdom of France if they could in order to have a constellation of sovereign Plantagenet principalities.

So, it was not possible for them to gain significant support to be chosen as king of France.

The compromise would always favour some insider if the Capetian lineage or of some other lineage whose main fiefs were in the kingdom of France and who was tightly allied to the Capetians.

About the marriage you mentioned, Joan of Navarre did OTL marry Philip of Evreux, that is a Capetian line of the third line coming from Philip III of France (who had 3 sons who lived into adulthood and had male descendants : Philip IV of France, Charles of Valois and Louis of Evreux).

And this marriage was concluded purposedly. Joan of Navarre did not choose her husband. It was concluded when Joan was only 10. And the one who was most influential in this decision was of course her uncle king Philip V of France.

One of the goals of such a marriage was of course to secure that no one outside the Capetian male branches could become a claimant to the succession to the french royal throne.

The so called Salic Law was but the formal ex-post attempt to legally legitimize this political will : no king of a rival foreign great power will ever be chosen as king of France, even not through the hasards and trick of marriage.

They probably became even more uncompromising on this position when Philip II Augustus turned France and its king into the most powerful kingdoms of Europe.

The kings of England, Castile, even less the holy roman emperor, could never ever be freely chosen as king of France.

But I think that the french elites would have had no problem having the king of a small country, parent of the Capetians, become king of France because they considered that this new dynast would have very quickly made France the center of its interests.

This happened OTL with the Capetian Bourbons who were nominal kings of Navarre.

If all the Capetian male lines had gone extinct, this could have happened with other other dynasty's that would have been linked to the Capetians through female lines, in the goal of preventing that a foreign rival great power takeover France through marriage.
 
Why? There needs to be a convincing reason. (Especially if I declare him only having daughters to minimise butterflies).
If you wipe out Louis IX's descendence, there would just be another cadet branch with a more ancient divergence from the mainline, but you can't possibly wipe everyone of them out.
The thing is that the French nobility didn't want a Plantagenet on the throne, so no matter how far in the past they will seek, they will still bar claimants whose pretentions are based on female lineage, being Edouard III or Joan II of Navarre and her offspring.
I wouldn't even be surprised if the new monarch was chosen by election as were the Capetians at first.
 
If you wipe out Louis IX's descendence, there would just be another cadet branch with a more ancient divergence from the mainline, but you can't possibly wipe everyone of them out.
The thing is that the French nobility didn't want a Plantagenet on the throne, so no matter how far in the past they will seek, they will still bar claimants whose pretentions are based on female lineage, being Edouard III or Joan II of Navarre and her offspring.
I wouldn't even be surprised if the new monarch was chosen by election as were the Capetians at first.
My point was why would they exclude the sons of princesses in favour of earlier line cadets. In OTL there was a convenient adult cousin, TTL there isn't. France didn't have agnatic succession until the Valois took over in opposition to a claim from an English king who used descent via recent female line.
TTL I suspect there will either be immediate war or a selection among the claimants by nobles avoiding war. Burgundy seem likely if he makes concessions to Flanders and Navarre.
 
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