No Irish potatoe famine?? Effect on American Civil War

Thande

Donor
I wondered how long it would take before some (expletive deleted) tried to pin a natural disaster on us :rolleyes:

Of course, it works both ways; just as Americans (usually) try to claim that the British response to the potato famine was motivated by some sort of vindictiveness against the Irish, similarly in this country a lot of people claimed that the American response to Hurricane Katrina was motivated by hatred of blacks...both are conspiracy-theory hogwash, of course.

Anyway, I don't think there's that much of an effect on the ACW - too soon afterwards (some fewer troops for the North, but that's it) but it would have a major effect on American culture afterwards. For a start, there'd be less of the ridiculous Irish-Catholic romanticism in late 19th century America, and those Irish already there (who immigrated in the C18) might actually remember that they're supposed to be Protestants ;) Which may affect American attitudes to WW1, although the large German community there will continue to have its say of course.

And without the large Irish Catholic presence I doubt the Fenians will be able to recruit much there in later years, which might result in the Irish Home Rule business getting sorted out before WW1 (the Loyalists can't paint the nationalists black by associating them with American-funded terrorism if it ain't there)...assuming WW1 happens, of course.

Having said that, I don't think this POD is worth much from a scientific point of view - the Irish potato famine was almost doomed to happen at some point ever since Raleigh introduced the potato to Ireland from just a few seed potatoes, hence the whole population had a very low genetic diversity. Hey wait, that means an Englishman was responsible for the famine! :eek::D Damn three-hundred-year serpentine Elizabethan plans...
 
The Irish didnt immigrate just because of the Famine it was for Freedo from British opression


Probably an element of truth for many, and there was resentment at thegovernment response during the famine, but for the most part, lack of jobs and food and the general crushing poverty.

During the Famine years, nearly a million Irish Catholics migrated to England, Scotland and Wales.
 

Oweno

Banned
The Irish are British. Ireland is a part of the British Isles. Hate "the English" I could cope with, but not "the British." Even from a Celtophiliac* pov that includes the Welsh and Scots, who're supposed to be blameless next to us. ;)

* TM Thande. :D

The irish Arent British.
 

MrP

Banned
[Leej] Probably Connaught, but using the wrong Leinster flag, as usual... [/Leej]

;)

:D :D :D

I s'pose he could actually be referring to the stories about those ships of the Spanish Armada that ended up disgorging shipwrecked survivors at various bits of the coasts. Actually, that'd make an amusing ASB scenario - WI they replaced the Irish, who they sent back to Spain in their place. ;)
 

Thande

Donor
:D :D :D

I s'pose he could actually be referring to the stories about those ships of the Spanish Armada that ended up disgorging shipwrecked survivors at various bits of the coasts. Actually, that'd make an amusing ASB scenario - WI they replaced the Irish, who they sent back to Spain in their place. ;)

Well, the history there is interesting. Have I mentioned the archaeological evidence for the Irish legend that their population (or at least the Black Irish) come from Spain? Actually the legend is 'from Russia via Spain', but there's no evidence for the Russia part (yet). Apparently the genetics support a connection with Galicia, though, which given the shared G-Celtic language is perhaps not all that surprising.
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
Well, the history there is interesting. Have I mentioned the archaeological evidence for the Irish legend that their population (or at least the Black Irish) come from Spain? Actually the legend is 'from Russia via Spain', but there's no evidence for the Russia part (yet).
There are all of those interesting folk and myth connections with the Sarmatians, and the Nart Sagas of the Ossetes.
 

Thande

Donor
There are all of those interesting folk and myth connections with the Sarmatians, and the Nart Sagas of the Ossetes.

Well, I meant genetically, and absence of evidence is not evidence of absence...I suspect it's simply that no-one's done the studies yet. Interesting nonetheless.
 

MrP

Banned
Well, the history there is interesting. Have I mentioned the archaeological evidence for the Irish legend that their population (or at least the Black Irish) come from Spain? Actually the legend is 'from Russia via Spain', but there's no evidence for the Russia part (yet). Apparently the genetics support a connection with Galicia, though, which given the shared G-Celtic language is perhaps not all that surprising.

There are all of those interesting folk and myth connections with the Sarmatians, and the Nart Sagas of the Ossetes.

I was thinking just the other day about the British/Basque genetic connection that some study found the other year, too. Interesting stuff, indeed!
 

Thande

Donor
I was thinking just the other day about the British/Basque genetic connection that some study found the other year, too. Interesting stuff, indeed!

I'd take that with a pinch of salt; people have been trying to genetically link the Basques with absolutely everyone for years, because they don't go into any of the neat little columns.

Of course it's possible that the native people of the British Isles before the coming of the Celts were Basque-related, but I shouldn't think there's that much evidence left to look for.
 

Hapsburg

Banned
There might not have been a CW. Without the Irish working for next to nothing then the other immigrants, who were more skilled, would have had to turn to the only other large source of stoop labor in the US, the slaves in the South. The practice of hiring out work crews to Northern industry would result in massive escapes and more calls for abolition but also allow the Southrons a method of getting rid of their fractious charges but also making a profit at the same time.
Interesting point, there.
Although, the core reason for the Civil War transcend merely the slavery issue. If it weren't slavery, it'd be something else, like tariffs, that started it. It was a conflict of ideologies, that sooner or later, was going to explode in violence. Regardless of when, or by what excuse. In a way, a Civil War of some form or another in the US was inevitable; we just picked the worst possible time for it to happen. :D

?Is it set for US or for British? Makes a big difference.
I have mine set for UK English, and it still says "potatoe" is wrong. :D
So, potato it is then.
 
Irish emigration unavoidable

I don't think a large Irish emigration was avoidable during that period, whether or not there was the potato blight. The Irish population size and growth was unsustainable given the agricultural technology and their economy. They were reaching a Malthusian collapse. (Whether the English had a responsibility for their condition I will leave to others to argue.) Ireland had a population of about seven million in 1840, more than it has now. In fact, it is the only area of the world that has a smaller population today than in 1840. Any world without large Irish emigration in that period would be so far different that it would be meaningless to discuss a changed ACW.
 
The irish Arent British.

:rolleyes:I think you'll find that the official word on that from Ireland is:

Yes they are!

>No they arn't!!

Yes they ****ing are!!

>No ****ing way!!! Shut your gob you ****ing **ack ***tard!

Who are you calling a
**ack ***tard? Away back to **** you ***ian ***tard!!!


(Thus starts the next round of the Troubles);)


Joking aside, there is a wide range of cultural associations in Ireland - Irish, British, Northern Irish, Ulster-Scots, True '32-County' Republicans, 'Free-Staters', and more...

British is as valid as the rest of them.

Starviking
 
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