New Deal Coalition Retained: A Sixth Party System Wikibox Timeline

[jolou]

“As such, we reject the Stalinist abortion delivered to the world by Hitler. For ourselves and the German and Polish people struggling under tyranny. My government seeks the recognition of the pre-1933 borders in the east to be the official policy of Germany once again. Of this there can be no compromise.”​

And Reagan/Rumsfeld is taking the side of this guy ? Are you still trying to redeem them or not ? x)

I mean German saying that they want new lands and that there can be no compromise , how long until everyone in Europe want to mobilise their army ?

Or if the German can have new Territory without any problems , then us French want the frontier at the rhine, the return of Louisiana and our former colony of England .

 

[Prince Daemon Targaryen]

Or, the Germans have inside knowledge that something will happen

In regards to the territorial demands, there is a difference. Essentially, the Germans aren't demanding simply a return to Weimar borders, but a return to Weimar borders for both Germany and Poland in an effort to undo the "Molotov-Ribbentrop Abomination." It has nothing to do with the rest of Europe and it's goal is to attack the USSR. Granted, most of the West will be pissed at Frey but they are too concerned with the Soviet threat to throw him under the bus. I'm setting up for a post-Cold War dynamic

 

[Prince Daemon Targaryen]

Second, a call for the restoration of the pre-1933 borders is problematic at best, and realistically there should be some room for compromise in that, for example, East Prussia would not be included in such a declaration; that would return concerns regarding the Corridor for example, and establishing the traditional Eastern Border sans Prussia would be plenty problematic as it is in terms of demographics. Such an uncompromising attitude also would have destroyed a lot of the goodwill that Frey has worked to build up around the globe. It comes across as a grave miscalculation on the part of Frey if he believes that his prior diplomacy would somehow make such a statement acceptable to the FRG's allies.​

The Germans feel East Prussia is the most realistic.

 

[Jacob.OBrien]

Germany Stronk!!!!

 

[Bulldoggus]

Gerhard Frey is an absolute ledge.

 

[jolou]

Or, the Germans have inside knowledge that something will happen

In regards to the territorial demands, there is a difference. Essentially, the Germans aren't demanding simply a return to Weimar borders, but a return to Weimar borders for both Germany and Poland in an effort to undo the "Molotov-Ribbentrop Abomination." It has nothing to do with the rest of Europe and it's goal is to attack the USSR. Granted, most of the West will be pissed at Frey but they are too concerned with the Soviet threat to throw him under the bus. I'm setting up for a post-Cold War dynamic

Soviet Threat, Soviet Threat, Soviet Threat ... It is not something that scare the European everyday . It has been now 40 years since the beginning of the Cold War and in some part of Europe, the Soviet are not really the evil enemy the American think they are . OTL the French and the British were not really happy about a German Reunification so imagine a german reunification (and an Imperial Germany Reunification) + the 1933 frontiers .

For now what the European public is seeing is the Fourth German Reich who say in his first moments that the new Reich want territory . The Soviet are behind a wall, the German (for the french) are on the other side of the Rhin .

And yeah for both Germany and Poland, but how Poland is going to obtain her former territory ? And how the Polish Government is going to agree give a great (and important) part of its territory ? How long until some General decide to take power ?

 

[Prince Daemon Targaryen]

Soviet Threat, Soviet Threat, Soviet Threat ... It is not something that scare the European everyday . It has been now 40 years since the beginning of the Cold War and in some part of Europe, the Soviet are not really the evil enemy the American think they are . OTL the French and the British were not really happy about a German Reunification so imagine a german reunification (and an Imperial Germany Reunification) + the 1933 frontiers .

For now what the European public is seeing is the Fourth German Reich who say in his first moments that the new Reich want territory . The Soviet are behind a wall, the German (for the french) are on the other side of the Rhin .

And yeah for both Germany and Poland, but how Poland is going to obtain her former territory ? And how the Polish Government is going to agree give a great (and important) part of its territory ? How long until some General decide to take power ?

Well, the Soviet Union is currently in the control of a committee of neo-Stalinists. No one expects Germany to invade anything

 

[jolou]

Well, the Soviet Union is currently in the control of a committee of neo-Stalinists. No one expects Germany to invade anything

But I still expect the other Western European Government to be quite angry at Frey . I mean, it would be like having the Bonaparte restored in France and the President of the Council saying that France now want a return to 1804 frontiers and that cannot be negotiate .

 

[galileo-034]

On the issue of the Oder-Neisse line, Germans may have a shot, but the story on Poland's eastern border is not as simple as it looks announced in the update.

Soviet demarcation of Polish eastern border essentially followed the border line proposed by the British in 1919, aka the Curzon line.

Then, Polish territorial expansion in the aftermath of the Polish-Soviet war essentially ignored the ethnic boundaries, leading to conflicts with Ukraine and Lithuania, both won by Poland.

Blatantly ignoring these two points, which I have no doubt Soviets and their allies will remind the world, you'll find Frey and Germany dangerously exposed on the morale ground.

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curzon_Line
  
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish–Ukrainian_War
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish–Soviet_War
  
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Central_Lithuania

 

[Prince Daemon Targaryen]

Frey and the Germans made their claim, but only see the return of Soviet East Prussia as the nonnegotiable item. The rest is variable.
Essentially, they have an edge because the current western border of the USSR was only set because of Molotov-Ribbentrop. "Hitler drew these lines" is a potent argument

 

[galileo-034]

To which the Soviets reply 'the British lord Curzon did it' (even though that was indeed the later 1939 pact and the 1945 agreements that actually enforced it).

 

[Prince Daemon Targaryen]

To which the Soviets reply 'the British lord Curzon did it' (even though that was indeed the later 1939 pact and the 1945 agreements that actually enforced it).

No one knows Curzon. Everyone knows Stalin and Hitler. It's a potent argument "Stalin took Hitler's lines and used them to enrich himself and bring tyranny down on eastern Europe."

 

[Ariosto]

The Germans feel East Prussia is the most realistic.

But it's not; four of every five persons living there is Russian, and its annexation would inevitably revive discussions regarding the Polish Corridor and whether claims should be extended to the rest of East Prussia, with everything that entails. The Poles themselves, at least those that matter, are going to be loathe to agree to any major cessions of territory back to Germany regardless of the conditions, and certainly would be opposed to the reestablishment of East Prussia as a German territory. The very concept is a non-starter, no matter how much the Freyist Leadership desire it.

What would ultimately have to happen is that Frey would have to sacrifice East Prussia to Poland in return for a readjustment of the Eastern Border, but even with that bargaining chip he would struggle to attain anything beyond the Oder; the more land that is exchanged, the more population is liable to be exchanged between Germany and Poland, and the associated costs with such an exchange rise considerably given more humane and voluntary methods will be employed.​

 

[Prince Daemon Targaryen]

But it's not; four of every five persons living there is Russian, and its annexation would inevitably revive discussions regarding the Polish Corridor and whether claims should be extended to the rest of East Prussia, with everything that entails. The Poles themselves, at least those that matter, are going to be loathe to agree to any major cessions of territory back to Germany regardless of the conditions, and certainly would be opposed to the reestablishment of East Prussia as a German territory. The very concept is a non-starter, no matter how much the Freyist Leadership desire it.

What would ultimately have to happen is that Frey would have to sacrifice East Prussia to Poland in return for a readjustment of the Eastern Border, but even with that bargaining chip he would struggle to attain anything beyond the Oder; the more land that is exchanged, the more population is liable to be exchanged between Germany and Poland, and the associated costs with such an exchange rise considerably given more humane and voluntary methods will be employed.​

Yeah because anschlussing a territory that’s 80+% Russian will *really* work out for the pseudo-Nazis.

Who said Frey expects this to be resolved peacefully? Perhaps he and the German leadership know something the others don't.

The Germans, in their resolution, have relinquished all claims to the Polish Corridor, Ponzan, and Gdansk.

 

[emk163]

I wouldn't be surprised if WWIII breaks out.

 

[President Eternal]

I wouldn't be surprised if WWIII breaks out.

WWIII's been coming since the December Coup. You can't blame the Germans for seeing the writing on the wall and making preparations.

 

[TheHolyInquisition]

WWIII's been coming since the December Coup. You can't blame the Germans for seeing the writing on the wall and making preparations.

Buys giant eraser
What writing?

 

[President Eternal]

Buys giant eraser
What writing?

You're going to need a bigger eraser if you want to wipe away the millions of soldiers now being commanded by hardline Stalinists who would all too happily nuke half the planet in order to spread their "glorious revolution".

 

[Deleted member 83898]

Great update. I do feel that a German monarch would be a "King" rather than an "Emperor", though.

 

[Nyvis]

In regards to the territorial demands, there is a difference. Essentially, the Germans aren't demanding simply a return to Weimar borders, but a return to Weimar borders for both Germany and Poland in an effort to undo the "Molotov-Ribbentrop Abomination." It has nothing to do with the rest of Europe and it's goal is to attack the USSR. Granted, most of the West will be pissed at Frey but they are too concerned with the Soviet threat to throw him under the bus. I'm setting up for a post-Cold War dynamic

But it makes no sense because the people who justified those borders aren't there anymore. What they are arguing for is either the Germans taking a ton of Poles in and the Poles a ton of Russians, or another wave of ethnic cleansing. It completely flies in the face of the modern definition of states on ethnic lines. It's just them wanking themselves in front of pictures of the old German empire and hoping it was reality.

I tried finding an example to compare it to but I can't find something ridiculous enough to be on the same level, because in most cases of weird historical claims, there is at least some people left to justify it. For example, modern day Austria claiming that Italy should give back south Tyrol could at least find a few German speakers there. But the Germans in the places the Freyists are trying to claim are just not there anymore. And it's well established that a nation state's claim to the land is based on the people, not arbitrary lines on a map, at least in the modern day.

You can't have it without either a massive change in Germany to handle their new influx of Polish population (who won't accept not being citizens under traditional German citizenship methods) or a reverse of what Stalin did with ethnic cleansing.

And smaller claims aren't more logical, because Stalin was very thorough. The ethnic map may have been muddled before WW2, but it sure wasn't after. There is no part of the eastern border you can legitimately claim as German.

But if your goal is to show Nazis can't really be reformed, you should keep doing what you're doing!