Nazis overthrown in a military coup years after a German victory. How would the new regime look back on its past and present itself to the world?

[NAF]

We'll go with the standard premise of British armistice in 1940 blah blah Zhukov purged blah blah etc., Soviet collapse in 1942 followed by Germany reaching the Urals. The plausibility (or lack thereof) of such a scenario has already been discussed to death so I'd prefer we not get muddled in arguments over how realistic a German victory is. I acknowledge that I'm doing a lot of handwaving here, and ask that you bear with me.

Let's assume that Hitler bites the dust in 1955 or so, and is succeeded by Goering. Goering, lacking the popularity of his predecessor and proving himself an incompetent kleptocrat, is soon removed from power by a military coup (let's say, similar in thought and temperament to the July 20 plotters).

With this in mind, what would the new regime look like, and how would it look back on Germany's Nazi past? I imagine in a scenario where Germany wins Hitler will be seen as a sort of sacred cow, untouchable by any sort of criticism. That said, would the new regime feel any "embarrassment" toward Germany's genocidal actions, both during and after the war, driven in large part by Hitler's desires? Would they try to "whitewash" him? Would it even be possible to? Considering that by this point some peoples such as the Jews and Poles are likely almost entirely wiped out, and that sort of crime is hard to sweep under the rug. On that note, what would even be done with the Eastern territories if a non-nazi, "normal" authoritarian regime came to power? Are the surviving Russians, Ukrainians, etc. given independence? Would there be reparations or even an acknowledgement that crimes had been committed? Where does the new Germany draw its borders?

What is the legacy of WW2 in this new Germany? How is it taught in schools? Is it celebrated as a great triumph against Communism, Britain and France (with the war crimes and genocide glossed over or ignored entirely), or is it looked back upon much more somberly, much like the world looked back on WW1?

And finally, how do they present this New Germany to the rest of the world? Do they keep trappings of the former regime like the Swastika flag and other Nazi iconography or do they try to break with the Nazi past entirely and call back to, say, the Second Reich? Would efforts be put into restoring relations with Britain, the US, etc. and if so, would they ever be successful? Would revelations of Generalplan Ost and the Holocaust be a deathblow to any diplomatic overtures, ala Fatherland?

 

[TheSpectacledCloth]

What would've happened to the rest of the Nazi leaders?

 

[NAF]

What would've happened to the rest of the Nazi leaders?

We can assume that Goering did some purging of his own before being removed from power. Himmler and Bormann are very, very dead, as is Goebbels. We'll say that Heydrich is still assassinated as in OTL. Without Hitler Hess is presumably sidelined or purged shortly after the former's death.

 

[Lalli]

I can't see Wehrmacht ousting nazi government in Axis victory world. Them have not much reason to do that and even if they are enforced to do that, they would continue nazi politics. You would need much more severe crisis to end nazi government like full-blown civil war after Hitler's death or complete economic collapse.

 

[NAF]

I can't see Wehrmacht ousting nazi government in Axis victory world. Them have not much reason to do that and even if they are enforced to do that, they would continue nazi politics. You would need much more severe crisis to end nazi government like full-blown civil war after Hitler's death or complete economic collapse.

What's so implausible about it? The Wehrmacht was more than happy to carry out Hitler's whims but was not necessarily wedded to the Nazi government. They swore an oath to Hitler -- not to the party. And if Hitler's gone and they think his successor is a screw-up who's driving the country into the ground, then why wouldn't they overthrow him?

 

[Jürgen]

What's so implausible about it? The Wehrmacht was more than happy to carry out Hitler's whims but was not necessarily wedded to the Nazi government. They swore an oath to Hitler -- not to the party. And if Hitler's gone and they think his successor is a screw-up who's driving the country into the ground, then why wouldn't they overthrow him?

Yes, a German victory changes a lot of things, for one SS will be far less importsant, and the army will feel they won the war. It's also not impossible that Göring have attempted to make purges in the army and replace the leadership in the army with people from the air force, if Göring's purges of the Nazi leadership have been bloody enough, the army leadership may fear they're next and even if they don't die, USSR's fall would serve as a warning of the risk in purging the army and replace competence with personal loyalty to the dictator.

 

[LongVin]

What's so implausible about it? The Wehrmacht was more than happy to carry out Hitler's whims but was not necessarily wedded to the Nazi government. They swore an oath to Hitler -- not to the party. And if Hitler's gone and they think his successor is a screw-up who's driving the country into the ground, then why wouldn't they overthrow him?

What would the the wehrmacht look like with another decade and a half of nazi rule though? How much independence would the officer Corp at this point have from the nazi party itself?

 

[Elfwine]

Based on the information suggested on the circumstances and the plotters, I think you get the Nazi German equivalent to presenting US western expansion as an unambiguous good thing as far as WWII and Nazi war crimes. Lots of how the German people have their rightful place in the sun at least within Europe, with that Poland was an independent country basically ignored, for example.

The plotters may or may not be specifically identifying as Nazis, but the impression I get is that their only objection to Goering is that he's an incompetent leader. I'm not sure you have a New Germany scenario, as much as that - depending on what "incompetent leader" means on the details (Too aggressive? Not aggressive enough?) - there's a change to address their immediate concerns with the direction the regime is going and no particular wish to reinvent Germany here.

Pretty easy to picture Goering being thrown out though. Just because they don't see any reason to reinvent Germany doesn't mean they see him as having any claim to their respect.

 

[NAF]

What would the the wehrmacht look like with another decade and a half of nazi rule though? How much independence would the officer Corp at this point have from the nazi party itself?

It's a fair question. The Wehrmacht was fiercely independent and saw itself as one of the central pillars of the state, so in any case I see them resisting attempts to curtail their influence or independence. That said, Hitler did desire to make the SS more powerful at the Wehrmacht's expense, viewing the former as more trustworthy and loyal to the Nazi cause. That raises the question though of how much of Hitler's distrust in the Wehrmacht arose from Germany's reversal of fortunes as the war went on, which Hitler often attributed to incompetence among his generals as well as the failure to follow his orders. If Barbarossa proceeds much more favorably for Germany (and perhaps Hitler never feels it necessary to appoint himself commander-in-chief of the army), it's possible the Wehrmacht has a much stronger case for maintaining its independence.

 

[Jürgen]

You need a rough outline for Europe, especially eastern Europe. A Nazi Germany which has been forced to moderate itself in the Baltic states, Russia, Belarus, and Ukraine, and paint itself as liberator of the people of the former USSR from “Judeo-Bolshevism”, will behave pretty different from one which have left it an empty wasteland. We can guess that the Jews are gone, I don't think the world look bright for Poles and Czech either, of course even if the survivors of these latter group have been the ones willing to let themselves assimilate rather than die, the late 50ties is still pretty close to the War so these people can fast fall back to being their old nationality, of course both groups will also suffer from a significant of their children won't speak their own languages.

I think any regime so close to the war, will continue the Nazi regime Germanization policies in Poland and Czechia. But in the former USSR if the Nazi regime have been forced to be pragmatic, these policies will end on day one, and instead they will try to set up pro-German regimes. Which honestly may not be that hard, if there's a Soviet remnant beyond the Ural and with people memories of the Stalin era.

 

[Sekhmet_D]

The only way the New Germany gets to make peace with the rest of the world is if they give up every yard of territory that the Reich conquered, for starters.

 

[RousseauX]

We'll go with the standard premise of British armistice in 1940 blah blah Zhukov purged blah blah etc., Soviet collapse in 1942 followed by Germany reaching the Urals. The plausibility (or lack thereof) of such a scenario has already been discussed to death so I'd prefer we not get muddled in arguments over how realistic a German victory is. I acknowledge that I'm doing a lot of handwaving here, and ask that you bear with me.

Let's assume that Hitler bites the dust in 1955 or so, and is succeeded by Goering. Goering, lacking the popularity of his predecessor and proving himself an incompetent kleptocrat, is soon removed from power by a military coup (let's say, similar in thought and temperament to the July 20 plotters).

With this in mind, what would the new regime look like, and how would it look back on Germany's Nazi past? I imagine in a scenario where Germany wins Hitler will be seen as a sort of sacred cow, untouchable by any sort of criticism. That said, would the new regime feel any "embarrassment" toward Germany's genocidal actions, both during and after the war, driven in large part by Hitler's desires? Would they try to "whitewash" him? Would it even be possible to? Considering that by this point some peoples such as the Jews and Poles are likely almost entirely wiped out, and that sort of crime is hard to sweep under the rug. On that note, what would even be done with the Eastern territories if a non-nazi, "normal" authoritarian regime came to power? Are the surviving Russians, Ukrainians, etc. given independence? Would there be reparations or even an acknowledgement that crimes had been committed? Where does the new Germany draw its borders?

Hitler would have died way way before 1955, he had parkinsons (mostly likely since the mid-1930s) and would have croaked by the late 40s at the latest.

What you are basically asking is the equivalent of how historically the USSR treated Stalin and PRC Mao after their deaths. However, unlike Stalin/Mao Hitler never purged his inner circle so the evaluation coming from whoever wins in the succession struggle is probably going to be fairly positive.

Whichever junta takes power in Germany is going to be composed of thoroughly Nazified officers some of whom would have -participated- in the atrocities on the eastern front and in the holocaust (cooperating wtih Einzengruppen etc). They can't disconnect themselves from the Nazi era very much. New regime's view of the Hitler era does depend on the circumstances of which faction in the army/state/party wins out the succession struggle. But on balance I suspect it's going to be very positive.

What is the legacy of WW2 in this new Germany? How is it taught in schools? Is it celebrated as a great triumph against Communism, Britain and France (with the war crimes and genocide glossed over or ignored entirely), or is it looked back upon much more somberly, much like the world looked back on WW1?

And finally, how do they present this New Germany to the rest of the world? Do they keep trappings of the former regime like the Swastika flag and other Nazi iconography or do they try to break with the Nazi past entirely and call back to, say, the Second Reich? Would efforts be put into restoring relations with Britain, the US, etc. and if so, would they ever be successful? Would revelations of Generalplan Ost and the Holocaust be a deathblow to any diplomatic overtures, ala Fatherland?

You don't have to wonder very hard: it would be some combination of the way the rape of Nanking etc is treated in modern day Japan and the trimphalist narrative set in modern day Russia/US where all the atrocities commited during the war are glossed over and the war is portrayed as a Manichean struggle between good and evil

 

[RousseauX]

What would the the wehrmacht look like with another decade and a half of nazi rule though? How much independence would the officer Corp at this point have from the nazi party itself?

The Wehrmact was thoroughly Nazified during the war itself I think too many people are clinging to the idea that the army was going to be some non-politized organization in a Nazi-victorious world

 

[RousseauX]

It's a fair question. The Wehrmacht was fiercely independent and saw itself as one of the central pillars of the state

it wasn't by 1940 or so

a lot of "oh we defied Hitler we were independent!" narrative came from captured German officers after WWII like Manstein who were trying very, very hard to distance themselves from Hitler and western authors/journalists/military figures just bought their story becasue of the cold war

in reality the story is more like whe the army and Hitler disagreed Hitler just yelled at them until they agreed to do whatever

 

[TheSpectacledCloth]

Honestly, Goering would be lucky to make it to 1955. He was not only very fat but also was a morphine addict. And he would have no incentive to cut back on either vice either. It's very likely that he dies of a drug-induced coma or heart attack in the early 1950s. Hitler's even less likely to make it to 1955. He was a mental and physical wreck by 1945, while it might progress less than OTL, he's still going have those issues later in life, especially with the drugs he was taking from Dr. Morell.

The Wehrmacht leadership was largely spineless and filled with submissive lackeys. Keitel was literally given the nickname "Lakeitel". While the Wehrmacht was certainly not fond of the SS, that might not matter that much if Goering dies early and Hitler names Himmler as his new successor. If the Wehrmacht was heavily purged during Hitler's final years, it's practically a guarantee that the SS seizes power in a coup, if Himmler was not already named the successor. Goering may have been disliked by the Wehrmacht leadership, but his military credentials and high popularity means he's untouchable in peace time. And there's nothing that either the Wehrmacht or the SS could do if Goebbels became the new Fuhrer. His impeccable and vitriolic oratory would've left any of his potential enemies at the mercy of the German public, especially as the younger generation becomes more brainwashed by the propaganda.

 

[RousseauX]

It's kinda hard to tell who would win a succession struggle.

I think a candidate from the army is unlikely but the war will probably produce a bunch of ambitious generals who are ideologically nazified but might want to play kingmaker for personal/career reasons. The obvious analogue is Zhukov backing Khruschev in 1953 and 1957 in the post-Stalin power struggle largely because they had a solid working relationship during the war.

like you can be 100% believer in Nazi ideology but still fking hate Himmler and want him shot, and want to be promoted to be commander of the ground forces or whatever by the new leader

 

[Vabasion]

There’d be a civil war guaranteed if a military coup is attempted. With victories aplenty behind them and sanctity of Hitler and his party in German mindset people would rise up and fight the Wehrmacht if it did something like this. The vons could plan a coup but the fighting men would not carry it out.

 

[RousseauX]

There’d be a civil war guaranteed if a military coup is attempted. With victories aplenty behind them and sanctity of Hitler and his party in German mindset people would rise up and fight the Wehrmacht if it did something like this. The vons could plan a coup but the fighting men would not carry it out.

not nesessarily, a coup would probably be to back a "legitimate" candidate rather than an outright takeover by a junta

like if the power struggle came down to Goering and Himmler the army could back Goering and arrest Himmler the way Beria was arrested by the Soviet army in 1953

 

[Captain Homicide]

As explained in various threads the Wehrmacht wouldn’t have the desire to overthrow the government if the Reich won because the political leadership would have guaranteed it was thoroughly vetted, cowed and Nazified even more so than IOTL. If Hitler, Himmler and Goring are dead I can easily imagine the country simply collapsing into civil war or being taken over by the SS.

 

[von Adler]

Honestly, Goering would be lucky to make it to 1955. He was not only very fat but also was a morphine addict. And he would have no incentive to cut back on either vice either. It's very likely that he dies of a drug-induced coma or heart attack in the early 1950s. Hitler's even less likely to make it to 1955. He was a mental and physical wreck by 1945, while it might progress less than OTL, he's still going have those issues later in life, especially with the drugs he was taking from Dr. Morell.

The Wehrmacht leadership was largely spineless and filled with submissive lackeys. Keitel was literally given the nickname "Lakeitel". While the Wehrmacht was certainly not fond of the SS, that might not matter that much if Goering dies early and Hitler names Himmler as his new successor. If the Wehrmacht was heavily purged during Hitler's final years, it's practically a guarantee that the SS seizes power in a coup, if Himmler was not already named the successor. Goering may have been disliked by the Wehrmacht leadership, but his military credentials and high popularity means he's untouchable in peace time. And there's nothing that either the Wehrmacht or the SS could do if Goebbels became the new Fuhrer. His impeccable and vitriolic oratory would've left any of his potential enemies at the mercy of the German public, especially as the younger generation becomes more brainwashed by the propaganda.

Göring was a periodic addict and tended to give in to his addiction - food, alcohol and morphine - during stressful periods of his life, and lose weight and abstain a lot (but perhaps not completely) from alcohol and morphine when he was in a better mental position.

Winning the war would most certainly mean his Luftwaffe has done well and he's a hero of the state and the nazi party. He could very well be in a much better position health-wise due to less stress, less weight and less morphine abuse in a scenario where the Germans won the war.

I suspect the power struggle before and then the position of Führer would be a lot of stress on him, and rampant morphine abuse would ensue, causing him to be essentially dead in the water, which would make a Heer coup more likely.