More Roman TL Ideas/Discussion

[Atamolos]

Apparently the Romans are the only part of history I'm interested in writing about. Anyway, I still plan on pursuing the Annals of Aelius TL for 150 more years, but I may start a secondary/minor TL just so I have something else to do and I don't burn out from reading Tacitus and Suetonius over and over again. I've been kicking these ideas around for a while, and I think all of them are worth exploring at some point, so I figured I'd give them to the room and see who'd be interested in seeing one of these (I've starred the ones I think may be particularly interesting). I've been inspired for some of these by posts other people have made on the site, so if anyone sees an idea that sounds like something you previously said and want to write the TL yourself, feel free.

(some of these were partially inspired by these threads https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...celts-and-germans.444985/page-2#post-17191848 https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...te-rome-screw-scenarios.444864/#post-17101412 by @FernandoPerla and @GauchoBadger)

Total Pyrrhic Victory -- The Hellenistic Renaissance (POD 280 BCE)
After successfully beating back the advancing Latin armies, Pyrrhus of Epirus expanded his swelling empire into southern Italy. However, as that warrior king’s focus shifted back to Greece, the Italian political structure was descending into chaos, and the state that would emerge would resemble nothing before seen in Europe. Will Pyrrhus once again be dragged into war with the burgeoning power of the Samnites, or will the barbarous Italians remain in their backwardness for decades to come?

***The Latin Right -- Italy as the Birthplace of Modern Democracy (POD 241 BCE)
Rather than establishing subservient provinces after the First Punic War, Rome integrates the Sicilians, Sardinians, and Corsicans as full socii. What implications could this have for the ballooning Roman Republic and their inevitable second war with Carthage?

***A Desert Called Peace -- The Fall of the Roman Republic (91 BCE)
The Empire is aborted in it's late republican phase. The Crisis of the Roman Republic, which began with the fall of the brothers Gracchi reaches it's gruesome, but inevitable end with the total collapse of order in Italy. Can Rome recover, or will Pontus, Macedon, and the Gauls all take their turn carving up the once-great Republic?

No Worse Enemy -- The Empire of the Fortunate (80 BCE)
After slaughtering all opposition and marching on Rome two separate times, the most brilliant general of his day, Lucius Cornelius Sulla, would eschew the precedent of resigning the dictatorship after six months and would rule for an unprecedented nine years in the office, violating all political norms of the Republic. Can the Republic survive this naked abuse of power, or will the emperors rise from the ashes of the Republic more than fifty years ahead of schedule?

I Came, I Saw, They Conquered -- The Northern Kings Take on Rome (59 BCE)
A man with no respect for the rule of law is dragged through the Roman court system in 58 BCE, and the mighty Julius Caesar spends the rest of his life rotting in exile. But deep in Gaul, armies are massing for a hostile takeover. Can Pompey and Crassus save the Republic from these barbarians, or will they be the ones to deal the killing blow?

Last of the Republicans -- The Terror from Gaul (44 BCE)
A young boy lies dead on the plains of the Po River. The upstart Gaius Octavius, who had become the heir and son of the late Julius Caesar, was slain on the field by the legions at Mutina, along with both of the year’s consuls. Now, the only thing standing between Marc Antony and Rome was a proconsul named Lepidus. Will the purges of Marius and Sulla return once again, and how will the emerging influence of Brutus and Cassius in the East affect the evolving balance of power in Rome?

***Clemency of the Guard -- The Empire on a Knife's Edge (68 CE)
Nero may be dead, but the legions are far from complacent. Unrest on both the Rhine and the Danube could undo all the work that emperor Galba has done to restore the peace. Can the princeps and his heir, a young man named Marcus Otho, take on the rebellious Vitellius in the North and Antonius in the East?

Luck of the Flavians -- New Blood for an Old Dynasty (81 CE)
Emperor Vespasian is dead, but he has two young sons who are alive and well, clearing the way for a smooth succession. Will the brothers ultimately fall victim to the whims of fate, or can the promising sons produce generations of peace for the Empire?

No Cabbage Savior -- The Perfect Storm of the Third Century (270 CE)
A plague has ravaged the legionary camps. Illyrian officers from all walks of life lay dead in their tents. Emperor Claudius Gothicus and his best officers, Lucius Aurelian, Marcus Probus, Gaius Diocles, and Marcus Maximianus are all laid low by a terrible pestilence, their careers aborted by this virulent plague. What does this mean for the crumbling empire? Can emperor Quintilius successfully bring Rome back from the brink?

***Hadrian's Citadel -- The Rise of the German Emperors (378 CE)
The Goths are cut down as they try and flee back across the Danube. But emperor Valens is not a merciless man, and he offers asylum and citizenship to all who would lay down their arms and fight with Rome. The Germans cast away their native kings and pledge fidelity to Constantinople, and a young officer named Stilicho finds himself at the center of a power struggle that he isn't prepared to endure. Will the Empire weather the coming storm, or is Rome doomed to go out, not with a bang, but with a whimper?

I'm sure some of these have been done before (especially the ones from the Late Republic/Civil Wars period) so if they have, shoot me a link cause I'd love to read what else this site has to offer.

A couple other notable mentions for ideas I've had but don't have the prior knowledge to pursue with much interest are here:
--Brennus conquers Italy in 390
--Carthage wins 2nd Punic War (cliche I know, but I don't think I've seen one on this site)
--Lucius Commodus outlives Hadrian, Antoninus Pius never becomes emperor
--Galerius or Licinius emerge as sole emperor after the collapse of the Tetrarchy or...
--The Tetrarchy remains as a stable mechanism for succession well past Diocletian

EDIT: I just realized that I have four separate TL ideas that deal with the early collapse of the Roman Republic, so maybe I could consolidate one or two of those for a really chaotic TL.

 

[Flavius Iulius Nepos]

Really interested in a Late Empire Scenario. In particular I would like to see the alternate end of the III century.

 

[alcibiades]

No Cabbage Savior -- The Perfect Storm of the Third Century, sounds really interesting. Also Galerius or Licinius.

 

[Atamolos]

Really interested in a Late Empire Scenario. In particular I would like to see the alternate end of the III century.

No Cabbage Savior -- The Perfect Storm of the Third Century, sounds really interesting. Also Galerius or Licinius.

This is actually the only TL where I haven't decided what the best POD is. Above, I have listed the Cyprian plague as a means to kill off the Illyrian emperors, but I'm not sure how realistic that is, because it requires all five of those officers (Claudius II, Aurelian, Probus, Diocletian, and Maximian) to be in the same place to catch it and die, which obviously didn't happen IOTL, so I think a better POD is in order. Although I'm not the most knowledgable about the period, so I'm not sure what a more likely POD could be. Maybe Claudius II loses to the Goths at Naissus or Valerian escapes capture by the Persians and purges the army following an attempted rebellion (possibly targeting Illyrian officers).

 

[Qhapaq Inka]

Lol, your descriptions are like the cover blurbs on TOR novels. I love it

I'm most interested in the Late Empire period, but something really novel from the Republic period would be really cool to see. Totally Pyrrhic Victory especially caught my eye - nothing like aborting Roman civilization altogether to make for a challenging and thought-provoking TL.

 

[Atamolos]

Lol, your descriptions are like the cover blurbs on TOR novels. I love it

I'm most interested in the Late Empire period, but something really novel from the Republic period would be really cool to see. Totally Pyrrhic Victory especially caught my eye - nothing like aborting Roman civilization altogether to make for a challenging and thought-provoking TL.

Yeah, I tried to come up with some more innovative TLs (except for the Late Republic ones, which are pretty run-of-the-mill). The Pyrrhus TL would have something like a "Samnite Republic" taking over Italy, or some other power emerging in Italy to challenge Carthage, or perhaps even a Hellenistic takeover of Italy and eventual war with Carthage or the Gauls.

With the late empire, the biggest theme I think would be a longer-lived Western Empire and an eventual war (or at least Cold War) between the Eastern and Western Empires. In the 3rd Century TL we'd probably see something like a faster transition to the Renaissance, since the hereditary reforms of Diocletian are a big factor with regard to how feudalism became dominant, but without Diocletian, it's possible that feudalism might be avoided in Europe altogether. Without small, decentralized kingdoms, it's likely that later migrants like the Vikings, Avars, and Bulgars would find less success in Europe.

 

[GauchoBadger]

With the late empire, the biggest theme I think would be a longer-lived Western Empire and an eventual war (or at least Cold War) between the Eastern and Western Empires. In the 3rd Century TL we'd probably see something like a faster transition to the Renaissance, since the hereditary reforms of Diocletian are a big factor with regard to how feudalism became dominant, but without Diocletian, it's possible that feudalism might be avoided in Europe altogether. Without small, decentralized kingdoms, it's likely that later migrants like the Vikings, Avars, and Bulgars would find less success in Europe.

Yeah, i also figured that a lack of a post-Adrianople Roman collapse would have resulted in faster tech progression, as a result of less urban networks being destroyed by invading barbarians.

 

[Atamolos]

Yeah, i also figured that a lack of a post-Adrianople Roman collapse would have resulted in faster tech progression, as a result of less urban networks being destroyed by invading barbarians.

Actually, I think Adrianople may be too little too late, a Roman collapse post-3rd century would probably avert feudalism, but staying together post-Adrianople might not. Feudalism has its roots in the reforms of Diocletian (which made it harder for the poor to move around and decreased social mobility, tying peasants to their land), and those can only be avoided by a pre-Diocletian POD

 

[CHKeeley]

Would love to see a late Empire scenario, but I’m also pretty impartial to a Gallic invasion scenario. Those are pretty rare in my opinion and Gaul is pretty underwritten about IIRC

 

[Atamolos]

I was partial to exploring what a late Republic without Caesar would be like. Particularly, in 58 BCE, if Julius Caesar hadn't been the proconsul of Gaul, would Ariovistus have been able to effectively conquer Gaul? It's unlikely he could conquer the whole region, since his army didn't have the sort of discipline or logistics that the Romans wielded, but he could have likely conquered the territory of the Sequani, Aedui, and possibly the Arverni (Vercingetorix's tribe), and if he spent a few years consolidating there, he would be able to pose a threat to Roman Gaul and from there, Italy. Maybe a bit of a stretch, but I'd certainly like to explore that course of events, especially since you wouldn't have the personality of Caesar dominating the historical narrative (as tends to happen in classical retellings of the period), so the author would be able to explore the personalities of other leaders of the populares like Cornelius Lentulus, Titus Labienus, Appius Claudius, and Domitius Calvinus.

That said, the consensus seems to be that the late empire is the most interesting, so I'll have to do a fair bit of research, since my prior knowledge only really extends to the reign of Domitian.

 

[Zulfurium]

The Sullan Dictatorship sounds interesting, I hadn’t considered it before. My primary Sulla PoD has always had to do with him dying early in the civil war with the Populares in power. That said, A Desert Called Peace, Luck of the Flavian and the two late Empire PoDs sound really interesting as well.

 

[Maoistic]

-Berbers successfully revolting against both the Romans and Carthaginians.
-Judea becoming independent.
-Zenobia's Palmyrene Empire surviving.

 

[Kiz]

Total Pyrrhic Victory -- The Hellenistic Renaissance (POD 280 BCE)

This would be cool as hell. Imagining the political, cultural and technological ramifications of an aborted Rome has always been a amazing topic. The first TL I ever read was surrounded around that (https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...d-scales-the-world-of-an-aborted-rome.245229/). Just think about who would fill the imperial void or even whether or not the void would exist in the first place. How does the world progress in a world where the lights of Western civilization stay in Greece and is constantly challenged by Western barbarians and the Eastern heretic emperors? What happens to republicanism and democracy without an example like Rome? And along ethnic lines, what happens to places like the British Isles where years of Romanization divided Greater Britiannia in the modern borders of England and Scotland and created rivalries to last two millennia?

Hadrian's Citadel -- The Rise of the German Emperors (378 CE)

Would this mean that Germania avoids the HRE and the hundreds of city-states and princedoms? If so, how does this affect the medieval age if there is no HRE to prevent Poles, Franks, Norse, Italians and Serbs from seizing its land? How does this affect the power struggle between the Western and Eastern Roman Empires? More importantly, how does this prolong the Western Roman Empire when the Visigoth and Germans don't take Rome and cripple the West?

 

[Atamolos]

The Sullan Dictatorship sounds interesting, I hadn’t considered it before. My primary Sulla PoD has always had to do with him dying early in the civil war with the Populares in power. That said, A Desert Called Peace, Luck of the Flavian and the two late Empire PoDs sound really interesting as well.

Ngl, I kinda threw Luck of the Flavians on there cause I couldn't think of another Early/Middle Empire TL. I'm not sure how I'd develop it into an interesting TL, but thanks haha

-Berbers successfully revolting against both the Romans and Carthaginians.
-Judea becoming independent.
-Zenobia's Palmyrene Empire surviving.

What would the POD's be for the first two? Because Judea was independent under Roman hegemony for around a century and a half, but after they were conquered, the Roman pretty thoroughly ethnically cleansed Judea (by deporting all the Jews out of the country, and they didn't return in earnest until the 20th century, so I don't see how they could really ever become independent under the Romans). As for the Palmyrene Empire, I assume that any 3rd century POD would involve them lasting for at least a few more decades.

This would be cool as hell. Imagining the political, cultural and technological ramifications of an aborted Rome has always been a amazing topic. The first TL I ever read was surrounded around that (https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...d-scales-the-world-of-an-aborted-rome.245229/). Just think about who would fill the imperial void or even whether or not the void would exist in the first place. How does the world progress in a world where the lights of Western civilization stay in Greece and is constantly challenged by Western barbarians and the Eastern heretic emperors? What happens to republicanism and democracy without an example like Rome? And along ethnic lines, what happens to places like the British Isles where years of Romanization divided Greater Britiannia in the modern borders of England and Scotland and created rivalries to last two millennia?

I think this TL would differ from my previous work in that it would probably have no characters, but rather it would examine broad political trends and the migration of ethnic groups, but that would take a fair amount of research. I imagine no singular power would have the sort of cultural energy or institutional strength to replace Rome, so there would never be a unifying political or religious tradition in Europe, and the lack of a unified road system may hamper technological development even longer that IOTL. Industrialization may even happen as late as the 20th century, although that might be pushing the bounds of realism.

Would this mean that Germania avoids the HRE and the hundreds of city-states and princedoms? If so, how does this affect the medieval age if there is no HRE to prevent Poles, Franks, Norse, Italians and Serbs from seizing its land? How does this affect the power struggle between the Western and Eastern Roman Empires? More importantly, how does this prolong the Western Roman Empire when the Visigoth and Germans don't take Rome and cripple the West?

I'd say there would still be Germans in the modern-day territory of the HRE/Germany, but the migration of Germans into the WRE would still be massive, so central Europe would likely see a mix of Slavs, Avars, and descendants of the Huns. I'd imagine that a fresh line of experienced soldier-emperors of German birth would have a similar effect to the Illyrian emperors that brought the 3rd century crisis to a close. They would breathe new life into the imperial bureaucracy that would prolong the WRE for another century perhaps before an inevitable series of conflicts with the ERE, perhaps involving numerous Germanic/Slavic states as proxies, and one of them would probably emerge victories. It's likely that the capitol of the WRE wold shift into Gaul, while the ERE tries to seize North Africa, while the two states would compete for naval dominance in the Mediterranean. Eventually they'd fizzle out, no empire lasts forever, but it would be an interesting story for sure (especially the post-Roman order in Europe)

 

[SeaBos]

***A Desert Called Peace -- The Fall of the Roman Republic (91 BCE)
This one sounds interesting

 

[Atamolos]

***A Desert Called Peace -- The Fall of the Roman Republic (91 BCE)
This one sounds interesting

Thanks. The point of this TL, if you couldn't tell from the POD, would be an Italian victory (or at least stalemate) during the Social War, leading to a collapse in Rome's ability to project power (since the legions would be needed to maintain peace in Italy). Spain would break away first, then Greece, then Carthage, and Mithridates would take this opportunity to take over all of Anatolia, etc. Although, I can't quite decide how to handle the situation in Italy ITTL. Would the Italians stay united, or fracture after the war's conclusions? And if they break up, would Rome or some other Italian group take over Italy and mop up the smaller states, re-establishing a Republic? I don't have answers, but it is definitely one of my favorites from this list to possibly explore.

 

[andry2806]

Last of the Republicans -- The Terror from Gaul (44 BCE)

This one is great!

 

[SeaBos]

Thanks. The point of this TL, if you couldn't tell from the POD, would be an Italian victory (or at least stalemate) during the Social War, leading to a collapse in Rome's ability to project power (since the legions would be needed to maintain peace in Italy). Spain would break away first, then Greece, then Carthage, and Mithridates would take this opportunity to take over all of Anatolia, etc. Although, I can't quite decide how to handle the situation in Italy ITTL. Would the Italians stay united, or fracture after the war's conclusions? And if they break up, would Rome or some other Italian group take over Italy and mop up the smaller states, re-establishing a Republic? I don't have answers, but it is definitely one of my favorites from this list to possibly explore.

According to The Storm Before the Storm the Italians were planning on building a new capital, Italia, this might mean that they would be willing to try collective governance for a little while. No idea how long this system of government would last though.

 

[Salvador79]

Small wonder I'm rooting for The Latin Right...!
That would be awesome. Maybe not exactly modern democracy, but still totally cool. Needs a helluva lot of backgroun reading on all the Island people - and quickly departs massively.

 

[Arkenfolm]

I'd love to see the Pisonian conspiracy succeed and what happens afterwards, especially since the Year of the Four Emperors (as we know it at least) would be averted. Or maybe Otho and the praetorians fail to kill Licinianus (check his ancestry, it's almost a "who's who" of late Republican Rome), and Licinianus can take the throne and establish a new dynasty. Galba liked him more than Otho for a reason.

Other than that, I do like the idea of a bigger Roman Empire--maybe Rome goes for the rest of modern Morocco instead of (or in addition to) Dacia in the 1st/2nd centuries.