Moonlight in a Jar: An Al-Andalus Timeline

[Denliner]

What's going on in Japan? Any Andalusi that arrived in Kyoto?

They already landed in Japan through the merchant al-Aghmati, but this was before the Miura Shogunate broke down. No audience with the Emperor in Kyoto though, so it seems.

Muslim interactions with Japan were somewhat more frosty. The Maghrebi merchant Muhammad al-Aghmati was the first to establish official contact, sailing into the port of Kagoshima in 1392 to a chilly reception. Japan at the time was under the control of the Miura Shogunate, which relied on local daimyos to assert authority - which they tended to do somewhat unreliably. The local daimyo viewed the Muslim arrivals with suspicion. While Al-Aghmati and other Muslims were eventually permitted to conduct trade, this access always depended on the whims of this or that daimyo or the ability to win over the Miura in general, and most tended to view Sufis as unwelcome.

That does leave a question though....since we're heading towards a Sengoku Jidai period and Europeans already have a foot in the door with an earlier first contact, would Muslims and Christians become even more directly involved with Japan's affairs during this period compared to OTL? Because if it is then we're in for a really interesting era

 

[Otto Kretschmer]

I do not have a visual example, but basically think Kufic.

More like Unified Arabic Typeface by Nasri Khattar

 

[snassni2]

More like Unified Arabic Typeface by Nasri Khattar

Looks interesting, didn't know it.

 

[Talus I of Dixie]

Because if it is then we're in for a really interesting era

I imagine if muslims and christians influence Japan in the same manner the portuguese did IOTL, you may just have ensured the survival of the christians as a community by putting their opposite there, since any post-peace would have a hard time actually finishing two religious groups. In the end you could actually see japanese muslims and christians daimyos allying against a bigger unifier shogun if he's anti-foreigner enough.

 

[Denliner]

I imagine if muslims and christians influence Japan in the same manner the portuguese did IOTL, you may just have ensured the survival of the christians as a community by putting their opposite there, since any post-peace would have a hard time actually finishing two religious groups. In the end you could actually see japanese muslims and christians daimyos allying against a bigger unifier shogun if he's anti-foreigner enough.

Not to mention that there's a possibility that Muslims and Christians will be more numerous since preachers would have to compete with each other lest they lose Japan to the infidels. With increased trade and influx of new ideas from Europe, I could definitely see Japan be a lot more cosmopolitan, technologically advanced, and religiously diverse by the end of the Sengoku Jidai, although that will depend on who wins the civil war and whether they will attempt to close the country out of fear of the foreigners. Maybe the converts are just so numerous that they can't realistically erase European influence from the entire country.

Either way, I can't see Japan being the same as OTL, that's for sure.

 

[Madhukar_Shah]

whether they will attempt to close the country out of fear of the foreigners

Would a mercantile China allow this? I have a sneaking suspicion that Japan's fate will be closely tied up with China's growing power, so the religious speculation should also take that into account. Maybe Muslims in the Chinese court manage to get Chinese backing for their trade in Japan?

Also given that Chinese expansion is a lot more ocean based, has the colonisation of Yunnan been butterflied? It'd be interesting to see how long the region can maintain the Indian influences of the Dali kingdom era underneath a Chinese state, especially given the Radha Kingdom keeping the Indian Buddhist tradition thriving.

 

[Denliner]

Would a mercantile China allow this? I have a sneaking suspicion that Japan's fate will be closely tied up with China's growing power, so the religious speculation should also take that into account. Maybe Muslims in the Chinese court manage to get Chinese backing for their trade in Japan?

I mean, Japan did trade with China under Sakoku, iirc, so I think China will allow this as long as their trading relationship is retained and Japan remains as a tributary. It's mostly European foreigners that they tried to curb and eliminate by isolating themselves.

 

[LostInNewDelhi]

Alternately, Japan could persecute Muslims on the scale of OTL Christian persecution (mass killings, forcing people to step on the Quran) and get away with it. Consider that OTL Tokugawa Japan did things like mandating that every villager make donations to any local Buddhist temple and make a record of this, to show that they weren't Christian. Of course, the temples aren't complaining about free money, so they're in support of the policy ad by extension supportive of the Tokugawa. Interestingly, killing Catholics had little effect on the Protestant Dutch, who kept Japan plugged into world events anyways. I don't know if the Bataid-Asmarid divide is ever going to achieve the kind of acrimony where something like this is possible but if it does, Japan could kill one group of proselytizers to scare the other, and probably not lose any more trade than it initially wanted to. If things do end up snowballing and Japan becomes the Muslim world's least favorite country there's always China to turn to-- although at that point the policy would probably be acknowledged as a bad idea, giving up the chance for a more independent path and all.

Meanwhile I guess Christian Europe is essentially not that relevant in the Pacific? They'll not be among the major players in the coming Southeast Asian conflicts, and they don't have any Pacific coast bases from which to reach China from the other end of the ocean. Which also means everything north of Baja California is open, should the East Asians be interested.

I don't know how much Sakoku had to do with Christianity, although it might have played a part. Another reason would have been curtailing the power of the maritime western daimyo who went along with Hideyoshi on the wild ride through Korea and counted among Tokugawa Ieyasu's enemies. Any Japan that ends up concluding stability and adventurism cannot coexist would make the same decision, especially so long as the basic unit of governance is the feudal domain. A Japan that gets to have both, well... that could be interesting.

 

[Remitonov]

Alternately, Japan could persecute Muslims on the scale of OTL Christian persecution (mass killings, forcing people to step on the Quran) and get away with it. Consider that OTL Tokugawa Japan did things like mandating that every villager make donations to any local Buddhist temple and make a record of this, to show that they weren't Christian. Of course, the temples aren't complaining about free money, so they're in support of the policy ad by extension supportive of the Tokugawa. Interestingly, killing Catholics had little effect on the Protestant Dutch, who kept Japan plugged into world events anyways. I don't know if the Bataid-Asmarid divide is ever going to achieve the kind of acrimony where something like this is possible but if it does, Japan could kill one group of proselytizers to scare the other, and probably not lose any more trade than it initially wanted to. If things do end up snowballing and Japan becomes the Muslim world's least favorite country there's always China to turn to-- although at that point the policy would probably be acknowledged as a bad idea, giving up the chance for a more independent path and all.

Meanwhile I guess Christian Europe is essentially not that relevant in the Pacific? They'll not be among the major players in the coming Southeast Asian conflicts, and they don't have any Pacific coast bases from which to reach China from the other end of the ocean. Which also means everything north of Baja California is open, should the East Asians be interested.

I don't know how much Sakoku had to do with Christianity, although it might have played a part. Another reason would have been curtailing the power of the maritime western daimyo who went along with Hideyoshi on the wild ride through Korea and counted among Tokugawa Ieyasu's enemies. Any Japan that ends up concluding stability and adventurism cannot coexist would make the same decision, especially so long as the basic unit of governance is the feudal domain. A Japan that gets to have both, well... that could be interesting.

The Protestant Dutch successfully argued that they would stay away from trying to spread their sect to other Japanese, and were able to brand Catholicism as a tool used by the Iberians to prepare for an eventual colonization of Japan (using the Americas as an example). In any case, the Tokugawa kept a close watch on them just in case, and the Dutch were all too happy to oblige by the regulations, since they now had a monopoly on trade between Japan and Europe.

As long as the Muslims are able to do the same and stick to trade activities, they should be able to avoid getting persecuted. It's what happened with the Muslim community in China during the Great Anti-Buddhist Persecution during the Tang Dynasty, when pretty much every other foreign imported faith (e.g. Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, Manichaeism, Christianity) was targeted for liquidation.

 

[LostInNewDelhi]

As long as the Muslims are able to do the same and stick to trade activities, they should be able to avoid getting persecuted.

Should have clarified, replace every generic mention of "Muslims" with "Japanese converts and foreign proselytizers."

 

[Mayukh]

How has the POD affected France?
I don't see noncomplaince of a minor archbishop to end Hugh's rule.

 

[Johnharry]

@Denliner

I will say I really enjoy your artwork for the timeline.

Something I just thought of, since Al Andulas likely uses plate armor as we established (due to adapting to European warfare) I think for generals much like OTL European generals may have gilded armor; Islamic generals and rulers may have their armor beautified with islamic calligraphy. Like like at OTL Boabdil's sallet:

Also, regarding technological advancement, I agree with your take that earlier climate change perhaps led to a greater need to invest in weather manipulation.

We spoke about Clerical attire I think, and I think some modern day Al Andulsian Imams might look something like Sheikh Yacoubi, a Syrian Islamic Scholar living in Morroco in terms of attire.

As you can see, his Turban is a bit different than most Syrian ulema and his attire is more similar to North African islamic scholars generally. I think the Turban will still be prevalent, even in the European sections, but more like above than like you traditional Imamah

 

[Abd ar-Rahman II]

@Denliner

I will say I really enjoy your artwork for the timeline.

Something I just thought of, since Al Andulas likely uses plate armor as we established (due to adapting to European warfare) I think for generals much like OTL European generals may have gilded armor; Islamic generals and rulers may have their armor beautified with islamic calligraphy. Like like at OTL Boabdil's sallet:

View attachment 645934

always loved this armor , very happy there would be more of them in the timeline

 

[Denliner]

I will say I really enjoy your artwork for the timeline.

Something I just thought of, since Al Andulas likely uses plate armor as we established (due to adapting to European warfare) I think for generals much like OTL European generals may have gilded armor; Islamic generals and rulers may have their armor beautified with islamic calligraphy. Like like at OTL Boabdil's sallet:

Thank you. I'm still thinking about doing artwork for the Otomi (especially the military), but we'll see if that gets made.

As for the armor, that's what I'd imagine high ranking Andalusi generals would be wearing. Heck, maybe even some of the upper echelons of the Black Guard or the Saqaliba knights might be wearing this too.

 

[Whiteshore]

What is identity like amongst Greek-speaking Christians ITTL? Is being Rhomaioi still something they identify as or has the Islamo-Roman nature of the Bataids led to them adopting the identity of Hellene (or more accurately, reviving such a label), even if only to distinguish themselves?

 

[Crazymachines]

What is identity like amongst Greek-speaking Christians ITTL? Is being Rhomaioi still something they identify as or has the Islamo-Roman nature of the Bataids led to them adopting the identity of Hellene (or more accurately, reviving such a label), even if only to distinguish themselves?

Rhomaioi is absolutely what they identify as.
honestly hellene is probably a slur

 

[Madhukar_Shah]

Rhomaioi is absolutely what they identify as.
honestly hellene is probably a slur

I doubt that- there were very many educated byzantines who embraced the term Hellene for themselves in the middle ages, and it was even used by emperor's themselves on rare occasions. Rhomaioi otl was the main term, but Hellene was a valid additional term.

Whether the Christians reclaim Hellene as an identity seems like it depends on the position of Christians in the state- if they're integrated into the ruling class and form a decent sized chunk of the nobility, they're more likely to identify with the state. If Christians are more or less marginal to the government, they might end up preferring Hellene.

 

[Whiteshore]

Whether the Christians reclaim Hellene as an identity seems like it depends on the position of Christians in the state- if they're integrated into the ruling class and form a decent sized chunk of the nobility, they're more likely to identify with the state. If Christians are more or less marginal to the government, they might end up preferring Hellene.

More or less what I was thinking with regards to the question I posed, though it could always go in the direction of "the Christians see themselves as the "purest" Romans as opposed to how their Islamized cousins have been "mongrelized" from their perspective" with regards to their identity.

 

[Denliner]

I doubt that- there were very many educated byzantines who embraced the term Hellene for themselves in the middle ages, and it was even used by emperor's themselves on rare occasions. Rhomaioi otl was the main term, but Hellene was a valid additional term.

Whether the Christians reclaim Hellene as an identity seems like it depends on the position of Christians in the state- if they're integrated into the ruling class and form a decent sized chunk of the nobility, they're more likely to identify with the state. If Christians are more or less marginal to the government, they might end up preferring Hellene.

More or less what I was thinking with regards to the question I posed, though it could always go in the direction of "the Christians see themselves as the "purest" Romans as opposed to how their Islamized cousins have been "mongrelized" from their perspective" with regards to their identity.

I don't think there's been enough time or animosity between the Christians and Romans to bring in a divide between both groups into Hellene/Roman respectively. In fact, Roman conversion into Hellas proper has been shown to be relatively light (mainly to get the jizya tax) compared to other regions like Patzinakia, so abject discrimination is certainly not what they're doing at the moment. In fact, I wonder whether the Patriarch and other high-ranking Christian figures are actually actively involved in the Bataid government similar to the Bishop of Salamanca and Toledo in the Majlis.

There's be no devshirme for the Bataids, at the very least.

I can totally see the Andalusi use that narrative against the Romans though, by claiming that the Orthodox Christians are more "Roman" than their Eastern Sunni rivals, justifying using "Turkmen" or "Barbarian" as racist slurs towards the Muslims. Orthodox Romans probably aren't immune to that kind of insult though.

 

[Madhukar_Shah]

I can totally see the Andalusi use that narrative against the Romans though

I mean for all that sure there is a rivalry between the two powers, arent we kinda overstating it a bit?

Sure they might ally with Christian powers against each other from time to time, but in theory at least, wouldn't the ideal of a united ummah be maintained? Following the wrong caliph is something that's wrong with your politics, not something that affects your muslimness, right?