Miscellaneous <1900 (Alternate) History Thread
- Thread starter RMcD94
- Start date
A Taranto (while uninteresting) still seems like the most likely option to me. The Durazzos had already lost Joanna's confidence by Andrew's death, so she's unlikely to marry the remaining Durazzo boy (another Robert, around Joanna's age). Joanna was still close with Robert and Louis of Taranto (the later her OTL second husband), so both of them are still likely.
Unfortunately, there aren't a lot of age-appropriate, unmarried, male Capetians running around for Joanna to marry. James of Bourbon would almost be the right age but he's already married.
Also, given what happened to Andrew in the first place, the things Joanna is looking for in a husband are hard to find. Andrew was constantly teased by Joanna and others for being Hungarian, so a foreigner (no matter how closely related) isn't ideal in terms of someone who could command Joanna's respect. Yet she also wants someone who appears non-threatening and will not usurp her authority (which Louis of Taranto admittedly did do, but we can probably safely say Joanna didn't expect this). I think Joanna's already made an enemy of Pope Clement by this time, so someone who's an ally or partisan of him is pretty much out as well.
Interestingly enough, though, James III of Majorca (the father of her OTL third husband, James IV of Majorca) would be widowed about a year after Andrew's death, so a match between Joanna and James the elder seems like it could almost be possible. IIRC, Joanna had a reasonably fond relationship with her step-grandmother Queen Sancia of Majorca, and Majorca (despite being Aragonese themselves) was anti-Aragon politically (since Aragon was constantly trying to take back control of Majorca), so some of his political interests would be aligned with Joanna's.
A Taranto boy still seems the most likely to me, though.
Bytor
Monthly Donor
So this comment is going to be lengthy and mostly stream-of-consciousness type, but I really want people's opinions on things.
I'm working on the country Alta California from my "Balance of Power" ATL (see link in signature), and today specifically on the Chinese-Californian community, but I don't know much about the Chinese coimmunity in OTL California to use that as a jumping off point.
For stuff in the OTL 19th century, mentions of Chinese are mostly about things like the Page Act, the Chinese Exclusion Act, state & local laws about what jobs they can hold, ant-miscegenation laws but rarely about the community itself, prominent members, and so on. Though granted, when the commnity is 90% aging bachelors and the majority o fthem returned to China by WW1, "community" was likely a tenuous thing.
Prominent OTL Mexican Californios were mostly mestizos, few were criollos, and many even had some African ancestry like the final Mexican Governor Pio de Jésus Pico.
Just like OTL, 1848 Gold Rush immigrants from Chihuahua, Sonora, Peru, Chile, and Argentina were mostly mestizos themselves.
In this ATL, a better better economic situation in 1848 USA meant fewer Anglo-American gold rush settlers than OTL.
As a result, the largest ethno-linguistic bloc are the Spanish speakers and reinforced by a Spanish constitution, Spanish laws, Spanish becomes the lingua franca instead of English. Take the Anglo-European-Protestant default culture of Canada and the USA and imagine Alta California as an analog of that but Latino-Mestizo-Catholic in nature. (Except in the state of Deseret, but that's another story).
Because of that mestizo start, while racism still exists, it is muted compared to Canada and the USA, and even compared to Mexico. It's more about cultural assimilation than skin colour.
So in that milieu we have the Chinese emigrants.
In OTL 1890, 10% of California population were Chinese, but only 5% of them were women. Chinese women were seen as promiscuous, sexual threats to whiteness and spreaders of STDs and that racism was expressed in laws and regulations that restricted the ability of Chinese men to bring their wives & daughters with them long before the U.S.A.'s Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882. And because of that, following the passing of the ACE, many Chinese returned to China by WW1.
But since those OTL anti-Chinese laws of the USA don't exist in this ATL Alta California more Chines men can bring over their wives and daughters.
So now we have the following questions with respect to the Alta California Chinese community:
1. How many Chinese immigrant men bring over their wives to settle?
2. How many of the single Chinese men stay in Alta California instead of returning to China with their (relative) wealth?
3. How many of those single Chinese men marry the Chinese daughters of the Chinese men who brought their wives over?
4. How many of those single Chinese men marry Indigenous women or daughters of non-Chinese immigrants?
What effect does this have on the percentage of Chinese as part of the population of Alta California? Does it stay at the 10% of OTL 1890 California, or is it higher?
How many more Chinese women do we actually get coming over? Was their scarcity in OTL 1890 California really only due to the racist laws preventing immigration, or was Chinese cultural the actual big reason why so few Chinese women came over, and thus nothing would really change?
Do their Buddhist, Confucian, or Ancestor-worship religions prevent assimilation and intermarriage as an expression of the above-mentioned racism that does exist?
Or does that not matter and the kids just get raised as Catholic or Indigenous spirituality depending on whom the Chinese man married?
What does the Alta California 1890 Chinese community look like compared to OTL 1890 California?
What does the Alta California 1990 Chinese community look like compared to OTL 1990 California? Have the Chinese who've been there fora century completely assimilated like how the Germans, Italians, French, Irish, etc… have assimilated and like everybody has a Chinese great-great-great-grandfather or great-great-great-grandmother the same way everybody has an indigenous great-great-great-grandfather or great-great-great-grandmother?
How do you think this would all shake out?
I'm working on the country Alta California from my "Balance of Power" ATL (see link in signature), and today specifically on the Chinese-Californian community, but I don't know much about the Chinese coimmunity in OTL California to use that as a jumping off point.
For stuff in the OTL 19th century, mentions of Chinese are mostly about things like the Page Act, the Chinese Exclusion Act, state & local laws about what jobs they can hold, ant-miscegenation laws but rarely about the community itself, prominent members, and so on. Though granted, when the commnity is 90% aging bachelors and the majority o fthem returned to China by WW1, "community" was likely a tenuous thing.
Prominent OTL Mexican Californios were mostly mestizos, few were criollos, and many even had some African ancestry like the final Mexican Governor Pio de Jésus Pico.
Just like OTL, 1848 Gold Rush immigrants from Chihuahua, Sonora, Peru, Chile, and Argentina were mostly mestizos themselves.
In this ATL, a better better economic situation in 1848 USA meant fewer Anglo-American gold rush settlers than OTL.
As a result, the largest ethno-linguistic bloc are the Spanish speakers and reinforced by a Spanish constitution, Spanish laws, Spanish becomes the lingua franca instead of English. Take the Anglo-European-Protestant default culture of Canada and the USA and imagine Alta California as an analog of that but Latino-Mestizo-Catholic in nature. (Except in the state of Deseret, but that's another story).
Because of that mestizo start, while racism still exists, it is muted compared to Canada and the USA, and even compared to Mexico. It's more about cultural assimilation than skin colour.
So in that milieu we have the Chinese emigrants.
In OTL 1890, 10% of California population were Chinese, but only 5% of them were women. Chinese women were seen as promiscuous, sexual threats to whiteness and spreaders of STDs and that racism was expressed in laws and regulations that restricted the ability of Chinese men to bring their wives & daughters with them long before the U.S.A.'s Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882. And because of that, following the passing of the ACE, many Chinese returned to China by WW1.
But since those OTL anti-Chinese laws of the USA don't exist in this ATL Alta California more Chines men can bring over their wives and daughters.
So now we have the following questions with respect to the Alta California Chinese community:
1. How many Chinese immigrant men bring over their wives to settle?
2. How many of the single Chinese men stay in Alta California instead of returning to China with their (relative) wealth?
3. How many of those single Chinese men marry the Chinese daughters of the Chinese men who brought their wives over?
4. How many of those single Chinese men marry Indigenous women or daughters of non-Chinese immigrants?
What effect does this have on the percentage of Chinese as part of the population of Alta California? Does it stay at the 10% of OTL 1890 California, or is it higher?
How many more Chinese women do we actually get coming over? Was their scarcity in OTL 1890 California really only due to the racist laws preventing immigration, or was Chinese cultural the actual big reason why so few Chinese women came over, and thus nothing would really change?
Do their Buddhist, Confucian, or Ancestor-worship religions prevent assimilation and intermarriage as an expression of the above-mentioned racism that does exist?
Or does that not matter and the kids just get raised as Catholic or Indigenous spirituality depending on whom the Chinese man married?
What does the Alta California 1890 Chinese community look like compared to OTL 1890 California?
What does the Alta California 1990 Chinese community look like compared to OTL 1990 California? Have the Chinese who've been there fora century completely assimilated like how the Germans, Italians, French, Irish, etc… have assimilated and like everybody has a Chinese great-great-great-grandfather or great-great-great-grandmother the same way everybody has an indigenous great-great-great-grandfather or great-great-great-grandmother?
How do you think this would all shake out?
Not sure WHICH forum this one might go to thanks to who it concerns, because it's kind of in several parts.
1) Keep the Kingdom of Hawaii fully independent but very much status quo (mostly-white immigrant upper class, but a literate, politically aware, and well-traveled strata of native Hawaiians beneath them in all other economic classes), with a somewhat refurbished military and similar demographics to the turn of the century.
2) Sun Yat-Sen remains in Honolulu and does not return to China in 1883, entering the army or navy, and then perhaps transitioning to government work by, oh 1890 or 1888. Unsure if he'd still become Christian at this point. Him not becoming Christian was I guess a key factor in allowing him to remain in Hawaii?
[insert whatever you want here for the rest of the world and the transition to the 1900s]
3) The father of republican China IOTL becomes Prime Minister of Hawaii sometime after WWI (engineering territorial concessions in the Pacific as a reward for joining the Allied Powers in 1914?).
Just how plausible is this?
1) Keep the Kingdom of Hawaii fully independent but very much status quo (mostly-white immigrant upper class, but a literate, politically aware, and well-traveled strata of native Hawaiians beneath them in all other economic classes), with a somewhat refurbished military and similar demographics to the turn of the century.
2) Sun Yat-Sen remains in Honolulu and does not return to China in 1883, entering the army or navy, and then perhaps transitioning to government work by, oh 1890 or 1888. Unsure if he'd still become Christian at this point. Him not becoming Christian was I guess a key factor in allowing him to remain in Hawaii?
[insert whatever you want here for the rest of the world and the transition to the 1900s]
3) The father of republican China IOTL becomes Prime Minister of Hawaii sometime after WWI (engineering territorial concessions in the Pacific as a reward for joining the Allied Powers in 1914?).
Just how plausible is this?
My understanding is that a match between Joanna and any of her Taranto or Durazzo cousins was bound to cause discord with whichever side of the family she didn’t align herself with. Joanna’s choice of Louis of Taranto was in part a reaction to the forced marriage of her younger sister Maria to Charles of Durazzo as 30PrincesAndAKing mentioned so I think it’s very unlikely for Joanna to marry one of her Durazzo cousins unless Maria’s marriage is butterflied.
I believe Joanna choosing Louis over his elder brother Robert was based upon Louis not showing his true colors before their marriage, although I guess we can’t say for certainty that Robert wouldn’t have acted similarly.
Her grandfather Robert the Wise had a lot of brothers and sisters so perhaps a cousin from a different branch of the family would avoid the strife associated with choosing between the Durazzo and Taranto clans although I don’t know whether any of her other cousins would have a sufficient powerbase of their own to make a match worth it.
James III has the added benefit of being mentally stable when compared to his son and with two living children, evidence of his ability to father children. I definitely think he’d be an improvement over both his son and Louis of Taranto as a spouse to Joanna.
Hmm, would Otto of Brunswick, Joanna’s fourth husband OTL, be possible as a third husband after Louis of Taranto instead? He’s the only one of them who was both competent and didn’t challenge Joanna’s authority.
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Is there some way to anticipate abolition of slavery in the Spanish Caribbean?
I was thinking a stronger central government (maybe by avoiding the first Carlist War) could do it, but I don't know if it has the incentive.
I considered the possibility of Britain trying to force Spain's hands, but I feel it'd be nicer if it was more a matter of Spanish internal politics (a field that is very obscure to me)
Anyone has suggestions?
I was thinking a stronger central government (maybe by avoiding the first Carlist War) could do it, but I don't know if it has the incentive.
I considered the possibility of Britain trying to force Spain's hands, but I feel it'd be nicer if it was more a matter of Spanish internal politics (a field that is very obscure to me)
Anyone has suggestions?
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Grey Wolf
Donor
You mean bring it around earlier, rather than know when it is going to happen?
Given that Cuba still had it in the 1860s, you'd need something drastic
I guess if Napoleon had not been freaked out by events in Haiti, and lost Leclerc's army there, he might have had a more enlightened attitude longer term. Then, if Joseph can be stabilised on the Spanish throne, abolition of slavery could be adopted as a Napoleonic feature
Yes
IOTL it was ended by Royal decree, so I supposed a stronger central authority could do it earlier
Read the whole essay here:
unprincipled peter
Donor
question:
Why did Spain not do more sugar cultivation? Mexico, Cuba, Domingue, Puerto Rico, were all suitable for it, yet as far as I can tell, it was not a huge industry. Britain and France were raking in the dough in the same region with sugar.
Why did Spain not do more sugar cultivation? Mexico, Cuba, Domingue, Puerto Rico, were all suitable for it, yet as far as I can tell, it was not a huge industry. Britain and France were raking in the dough in the same region with sugar.
My impression is that the Spanish government's view of the colonies was dominated by their provision of bullion and Asian trade goods, so there was rarely an impulse to do anything to promote other economic activity there.
unprincipled peter
Donor
The Bourbon reforms were about squeezing more revenue out of the colonies. Sugar could have added to the revenue stream. A lot of the reforms revolved around protecting the guild monopolies in the mother land. Perhaps the lack of interest is somehow related? Or just a lack of vision? Lack of much of a market since Britain and France were so dominant in sugar?
What if Thorvald Eiriksson had managed to make a successful & peaceful first contact with the proto-Beothuk peoples of Labrador & Newfoundland?
A general query-
Does anyone know of a good (or even just half decent) timeline where Pedro II fights his coup attempt and seeks to keep the monarchy going in Brazil? My recent reading of things suggests that if he really wanted to he could have easily done so as he was an extremely popular monarch.
Does anyone know of a good (or even just half decent) timeline where Pedro II fights his coup attempt and seeks to keep the monarchy going in Brazil? My recent reading of things suggests that if he really wanted to he could have easily done so as he was an extremely popular monarch.
He didn't want to because he wanted to quit, though, I thought
Correct, but I'm wondering if anyone's done a timeline where he did go ahead and fight it.