Map Thread XIX

The (Not So) Great Texas-Iraq ( or Rio-Tigris) ISOT
@Bubbykins , this one's for you​




The Pecos-Rio Grande river system switched with the Tigris-Euphrates one.



Modern US and Mexico (well, really around 2010) around these rivers immediately following an ISOT to this region in 1400 BCE.



This isn't by any means a well though out TL, definitely has more holes than Swiss Cheese, but here it is.



The Big Map:






Legend:
Sorry for the many unlabeled cities in the last map, I was more focused on trying out a graphical style that I don't have much experience with than on getting I every detail.
The idea behind the names is that this "Ancient US"'s records are lost over time (most road signs are destroyed, as are many computers, the Texans don't bring back the internet, however, there are extensive connections between a few individual devices through Bluetooth and similar technologies. Most technology is kept, but names are largely forgotten, and many come from foreign (Egyptian and Median/Madai) texts, resulting in name changes.
  • Makalan = McAllen
  • Montarai = Monterrey (the one in Mexico obviously)
  • Waraz = Juarez
  • Las Krusas = Las Cruces
  • Karlabad = Carlsbad
  • Addaas = Odessa
  • Pakas = Pecos
  • Albakurk = Albuquerque (the ee sound at the end got dropped)
  • Santafa = Santa Fe
  • Al Basa = El Paso
America --> Americuh (uh is barely registered by the foreigners) --> Americ' --[passed through foreign phonetics]--> Amrak
Yerak is just how Iraq was transliterated from Amraki English by its neighbors.


I'm really looking for feedback on the big map/graphic, the style and composition, not the information.

Apologies for any spelling and grammatical errors. Also, a note, this is not something I would want to happen, it's just something that was discussed on this thread that I found interesting.
How the hell does this nation collapse in just two hundred years?
 
How the hell does this nation collapse in just two hundred years?
It's a beautiful map and the graphics are amazing, but I agree. The region ISOTed has around 10-12 million inhabitants in a time when the Earth as a whole only had around 40 million people. The Americans and Mexicans should be able to demographically absorb the whole Middle East- and I wouldn't count the Mexicans out. The largest modern city in the scenario is Monterrey, Mexico, there are at least 6 million Mexicans in the ISOT, and a large percentage (possibly a majority) of the Americans brought along are Hispanic.

EDIT: The more that I think about this- and I do love the scenario- but my biggest objection is how the Mexicans just sort of quietly disappear. The two largest cities in the world are Mexican- the Monterrey MA has 4.6 million people , the Juarez MA has 2.5 million and there are at least 7-8 million Mexican citizens. The largest American city is Albuqurque with 1.1 million people in the Albuqurque-SantaFe-Las Vegas CSA, there are roughly 5 million American (3 million in the Texas Border Region, 2 million in New Mexico and the other parts of Texas) citizens, about 2/3 of those Americans are at least partly Hispanic or Latino. Most of the ISOTed population of the world will speak at least some Spanish, although it's possible that a majority of the ISOTed population will also speak some English. Not that predominantly Hispanic and Latino Americans are going to up and decide they want to be Mexicans, but any union between the American and Mexican territories is going to speak Spanish just as much as it speaks English and it will be leaning hard on a common Hispanic culture as a unifying factory. It wouldn't be an American-dominated union.

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I was going to wait to finish this to post here.... But whatever
I am going to make a thread when I finish it.
TANS is something I've been working on for two days. It's a middle ground between TACOS and TOASTER. Although on the smaller side. Hope everyone enjoys this pre-finished version!
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Another Announcement about Ahikto, I've decided as it's been a bit harsh for world-building related issues, Ahikto will be splitting into two, Ahikto the original and Jamyt, the new map. Work on Jamyt is underway.
 
1578779576660.png

The political map of the Dunes of the Desert Timeline in AD 1200. Note and keep in minde, that most of the Americas, as well as large parts of Africa orJapan have still not been touched by the butterfly of Muhammad not being born
 
Ola Azul en La Llana Estacado.png

The Democratic victory in the Llano Estacado in 2052 was a long time coming, the product of 40 years of slowly shifting margins and a rout of the Republican party at the national level. Still, it was a shock, as for the first time since 1976, the Democratic Party had won across the high plains, the lightly populated Big Sky Country that seemed for generations to be an impregnable bastion of conservatism. A growing Latino population in the ranching towns scattered across this sparse desert had begun the process of claiming political power for themselves, and the Llano Estacado would never be the same.
 
How the hell does this nation collapse in just two hundred years?
Honestly can't remember my innitial thoughts. I think it had something to do with the series of attacks and natural disaster in the Bronze Age Collapse, but they realistically would be able to deal with it, so I'm not actully sure why I wrote that. Again, I said it wasn't well thought out and that I really want feedback on the visual style rather than a look at the realism of the information, but you're right that it doesn't make sense.
 
Honestly can't remember my innitial thoughts. I think it had something to do with the series of attacks and natural disaster in the Bronze Age Collapse, but they realistically would be able to deal with it, so I'm not actully sure why I wrote that. Again, I said it wasn't well thought out and that I really want feedback on the visual style rather than a look at the realism of the information, but you're right that it doesn't make sense.
200 years is a decent length of time in nation-state timescales. The US had a civil war in that time period (though that was foreseeable) and the UK gained and lost continents, plural. I could see maybe if the uptimers finished gearing down to maintain what lifestyle they could, they would then start relying on pre-ISOT science texts for their advancements, eventually coming to rely on them and stagnating. Meanwhile, allied downtimer states with access to the same technology and a suddenly very high birth rate could begin innovating and surpassing the uptimers, inevitably leading to a nuclear conflict that ironically causes the climate shift that started this timeline's version of the bronze age collapse in the first place.
 
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It's a beautiful map and the graphics are amazing, but I agree. T
well, they certainly can't maintain a 21st century technology level with only the people and resources they have: there are simply too many specialties, too many supply chains with international reach, too many raw materials that need to be imported (they have a lot of oil handy, but west Texas and eastern New Mexico don't have a lot of other natural resources). They're like to crash back to a largely 19th/early 20th century level of technology, once their current machines wear out, and even with the documentation, if they don't share their tech with other peoples, they're unlikely to ever reach an overall 21st century level of technology. Although they might well be able to make low-tech "ersatz" versions of more advanced technology (you can after all make a jet plane with only 1920s or so technology, although it will hardly match modern designs).

That being said, if the new state doesn't fall apart in the first few decades, I have some trouble not seeing it survive the bronze age crisis: if the Assyrian state managed it, I don't see why a state with modern levels of organization and at least an early 20th century level of tech and Green Revolution farming know-how doesn't survive. Especially since they'll know about the (presumed) heavy drought era in advance.

Not that it isn't possible for Tex-Mex Babylonia to screw things up badly: as of OTL 2020, both Mexican and American democracy are in poor shape, and the stresses of the ISOT might end up leading to some sort of dictatorship: a couple centuries down the road I can see it turning into something screwed up enough (say a theocratic absolutism with a stratified society, with advanced engineering but questioning "scientists" stamped out and an underclass of era-native peoples) that it collapses under it's own weight, but that isn't where I'd put my money if I was a betting man.

Edit: collapse in the sense of having no real successors. If it gets big enough, I can see regional differences leading to a breakup, but there would be clear inheritor states.

The Americans and Mexicans should be able to demographically absorb the whole Middle East-
They might avoid absorbing Israel for religious reasons, and Egypt had about 2-3 million people, which would be like OTL US absorbing both Sudans plus Senegal (not to mention Egypt's population should increasing sharpish with the import of new crops and even the most basic of sanitary and medical know-how) but yeah, if the state remains functional it is likely to expand rather further than shown on the map.
 
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A map for@Vasilas 's "Out of the Ashes", a world where the Byzantine Empire successfully expands against Islam and becomes again the dominant power west of China. (Call it Roman, though: they don't care for the term "Byzantine.")

A couple points of clarification: the Empire has a very ugly past, in which it brutally imposed the Greek language and Eastern Orthodox Christianity with often genocidal methods, which it is currently eager to shove under the rug. It is still very hostile to Muslims, either eastern Old School ones, or *American Rumi Islam. It is rivals with the rather more democratic Russian superpower, which a combination of Byzantine claims to overlordship as true leader of the Church and border conflicts has annoyed to the extent of pretty much permanent hostility: fortunately, the Roman Empire can count on the support of the Chinese and the Scandinavians, both of which have bones to pick with Russia, in containing said power.

The Rumi Muslims, which fled to the Americas by way of Islamic spain, where they intermixed with and converted the locals, are a product of centuries of Roman oppression of their conquered Muslim populations: their faith is an attempt to answer the question of the failure of Arab Islam, which they have come to seen as an error: not Mohammed, but the later Caliphs, lost sight of their true mission, to convert the Romans, and were therefore rejected by Allah, while Christ really was the Messiah, but was misunderstood and required Mohammed to reiterate his message. In some ways they are closer to Ebionite Christians than OTL Islam. (There are also a fair number of more "traditional" Muslims who also fled to the Americas, but they have always been in the minority and frequently badly oppressed. And then there are the Islam-Rumi Islam-Native American faiths syncetisms... the New World is a diverse place)

Northern Europe, aside from far-from-the-front-lines Scandinavia, was screwed over by the Roman conquests of the Mediterranean shortcircuiting the Renaissance, and things have been complicated further by large scale migrations of Mediterranean Catholics north, the turn to Angry Protestant Fundamentalism, and after the Muslims became seen as allies in the struggle against the Romans, a sizable immigration of Muslim (predominantly Rumi, but also more traditional, particularly from Spain) refugees. (That hasn't been so much of a problem at first until the modern era, when the development of more coherent national identities has led to very nasty arguments as to who is or isn't a German, an Englishman, etc.)

Here's the map: the Americas and Africa are highly speculative, and my apologies to Vasilas if I depart too far from his vision here and there. Also, sorry about the unusually massive set of notes, but I wanted to avoid doing a full writeup. :)
Anyhoo, here it is.

FromTheAshes.png
 
Christ really was the Messiah, but was misunderstood and required Mohammed to reiterate his message.
That’s… fascinating. How do they reconcile (or, rather, how do they ignore) the part where Jesus says no one comes to God except through [Jesus]? Do they just ignore the gospels? And if so, how can they say Jesus was Messiah? Moreover, why wouldn’t they just become Christians then and fold themselves into the standard Orthodoxy?

The mental image of Muhammad only existing as a sort of spiritual “did I stutter?” messenger is pretty funny, at least.
 

This map is in the same universe as the 1944 Europe map I posted recently

Following the British-German peace in 1942 Britain become plans to overthrow the Nazis, not by military means but by diplomacy. Operation Sandstone began officially in 1944 after the defeat of the Soviet Union.

Operation Sandstone is the name given to a series of operations that occurred between 1944 and 1951 which seeked to slowly erode fortress Europe. One of the most important aspects of the operation was securing Portugal as an ally and preventing Salazar from entering the German alliance system to begin with. Portugal had begun to shift to more fascist policies to appease Hitler and prevent occupation. Britain began by overthrowing Salazar and putting Humberto Delgado into power in 1949 who began enacting liberal reforms. In late 1950 a military build-up by Franco began along the Portuguese border. Portugal believed that this was likely leading up to an attack and decided to launch a preliminary attack in early 1951. Supported economically by Britain as well as several 10s of thousands of refugees from Spain. Portugal invaded under the guise of restoring democracy in Spain. Portugal's military faced early success. Portugal hoped that a quick surrender of Spain's military would force capitulation and lead to direct support from the United Kingdom and the United States. British intelligence believed the Germany was between 2 to 5 years from developing nuclear capabilities and it was necessary to defeat Hitler before then. Churchill pushed parliament to declare war against Spain, but his government refused and the conservative coalition collapsed.

In June Franco was killed during the battle of Madrid, and all but the eastern suburbs of Madrid wall to Portuguese forces. July however the Axis reinforcements had arrived. The Portuguese fought well initially but began to be pushed back, In mid September Hitler dropped nukes on Lisbon and Porto as part of operation Anvil. Hitler sends a message to London that he has 30-50 more nukes he is prepared to use against the United Kingdom should they not withdrawal support from Portugal (This was a bluff, it is believed that Hitler only had two functional weapons available in 1951).

Following this the Portuguese high command collapsed. Finally on October 1st Portuguese southern forces surrendered outside Lisbon marking the end of the war. Fighting would continue in Madrid until November 16th with the encircled Portuguese forces fighting to nearly the last man.
 

Tethys00

Donor

Hi I made a map of OTL Utah.

Made with:
Blender (Shaded Relief)
QGIS (Topography/Roads/County Borders/)
Illustrator (Cities/Compiling everything together/Names/Key)
2 cans of Cream Soda (to keep my sanity)

Check it out on Reddit and DeviantArt for me thanks​
 
That’s… fascinating. How do they reconcile (or, rather, how do they ignore) the part where Jesus says no one comes to God except through [Jesus]? Do they just ignore the gospels? And if so, how can they say Jesus was Messiah? Moreover, why wouldn’t they just become Christians then and fold themselves into the standard Orthodoxy?

The mental image of Muhammad only existing as a sort of spiritual “did I stutter?” messenger is pretty funny, at least.
Well, OTL Muslims hold Jesus as a true prophet second only in importance to Mohammed while (If I understand correctly) holding that the Gospels aren't accurate. I'm a bit confused on how Vasilas saw it myself: I got the bit about "Hellenized Ebionites" from something he said in the TL. Let's just say they're following a brand of Islam which is heavily modified to take into account the fall of western Islam and lots of Hellenization, to the extent Muslims from OTL probably wouldn't consider it Islam, and leave it at that for now. Maybe Vasilas will show up to enlighten us.
 
It's a beautiful map and the graphics are amazing, but I agree. The region ISOTed has around 10-12 million inhabitants in a time when the Earth as a whole only had around 40 million people. The Americans and Mexicans should be able to demographically absorb the whole Middle East- and I wouldn't count the Mexicans out. The largest modern city in the scenario is Monterrey, Mexico, there are at least 6 million Mexicans in the ISOT, and a large percentage (possibly a majority) of the Americans brought along are Hispanic.

EDIT: The more that I think about this- and I do love the scenario- but my biggest objection is how the Mexicans just sort of quietly disappear. The two largest cities in the world are Mexican- the Monterrey MA has 4.6 million people , the Juarez MA has 2.5 million and there are at least 7-8 million Mexican citizens. The largest American city is Albuqurque with 1.1 million people in the Albuqurque-SantaFe-Las Vegas CSA, there are roughly 5 million American (3 million in the Texas Border Region, 2 million in New Mexico and the other parts of Texas) citizens, about 2/3 of those Americans are at least partly Hispanic or Latino. Most of the ISOTed population of the world will speak at least some Spanish, although it's possible that a majority of the ISOTed population will also speak some English. Not that predominantly Hispanic and Latino Americans are going to up and decide they want to be Mexicans, but any union between the American and Mexican territories is going to speak Spanish just as much as it speaks English and it will be leaning hard on a common Hispanic culture as a unifying factory. It wouldn't be an American-dominated union.

View attachment 515383
You know, that is a point I thought about initially (I looked at ethnic/linguistic maps and such) and then went "Nah, who cares, it's not meant to be detailed." But I did think about using Tahas (Tejas) or something deriving from Republica Del Rio Grande and a banner based on the OTL historical Rio Grande republic flag, or just having it be "American" but with Spanish as an official language which out competes English in day to day use, I'm not sure how many of the Mexican/Hispanic people in southern Texas see themselves primarily as Mexicans and how many see themselves as Americans first, which could be important to the scenario if I was trying to flesh it out. TBH, I'm kind of tempted to redo stuff and go more in depth now that the map has gotten so much attention, though I am really busy RN and had other plans.

Thanks for the feedback.
 
RWANDAN GENOCIDE MEMORANDUM
SUBJECT: THE RWANDAN GENOCIDE
PARTICIPANTS: [REDACTED], [Roméo Antonius Dallaire]
DATE, TIME, AND PLACE: 5 MARCH 10:22-10:53 PM UTC + 3 NAIROBI

[REDACTED] “I understand the difficulty in discussing the genocide, no one should watch the wanton slaughter of over a million souls.”

[Dallaire] “No. No one should. You can call it a genocide, but really, what happened in Rwanda was the release of what lies in the darkest recesses of our souls, torn into the daylight for all to see. No other genocide can compare to it.”

[REDACTED] “When you mean by that, do you mean that it cannot be compared to any other genocide, say the Holocaust?”

[Dallaire] “There were no death squads, no concentration camps, no concept of living space and inferior races to be cleansed. You had these things with the Nazis. But the Rwandan Genocide was different from any other genocide because it was and still remains a personal genocide. You must understand that the Holocaust was ordered, calculated, planned by a central government. But in Rwanda, these ordinary people, they killed their family, their friends, their neighbors, all in hatred of a group that most historians and linguists consider to be exactly identical to themselves.”

[REDACTED] “It didn’t stop? Not even when the government intervened?”

[Dallaire] “No. It was unlike anything we’ve ever seen. At least the Americans were able to restore order and build up a prosperous Europe. But there… the chaos consumed Zaire, replaced it with the Kivu death-state, all trying to kill as many people as they could get their hands on.

“It won, we lost.”

[REDACTED] ‘Do you know how many were killed in the genocide?”

[Dallaire] “I think there were a thousand in Kigali as we withdrew.”

[REDACTED] “A thousand?”

[Dallaire] “Just from a couple blocks. One thousand bodies, bloated from death. You could see the wounds- lacerations to the head, blows to the sternum. You could see people desecrating them further, others looting the corpses for anything they hadn’t missed. There was even a man collecting heads with a machete. Hacking them off and throwing them into a sack.

[REDACTED] “If I may ask, what exactly happened after Habyarimana’s death?”

[Dallaire] deep breath

“After the president’s death, they hacked Agathe, the prime minister, to pieces, then the UN troops supposed to protect her. I think they were trying to scare me out of the country. Yet...I found myself determined to stay, if only in remembrance for my fallen men. But even that was a difficult task. You see, the UN reduced my command to less than a thousand men. Meanwhile, over 100,000 civilians, both Tutsi and Hutu moderates, were massacred in the span of two weeks. That makes you wonder...what’s the point of the United Nations peacekeeping mission if you can’t defend anyone?

[REDACTED] “If I may ask, what were some of the challenges that you had to face while acting as the head of UNAMIR?”

[Dallaire] “Like I just said. It was restricting, to say the least. UNAMIR, the UN command in Rwanda, couldn’t act, couldn’t intervene and stop thousands from being slaughtered with machetes, saws, AKs, whatever the Hutus had in hand. The Interahamwe mocked us as we went on our patrols, butchering Tutsis in front of us because they knew that our hand was forcefully stayed. We could have done something… but we were there on UN orders, and the UN prevented us from doing what was right.”

[REDACTED] “When UNAMIR was reorganized into UNAMIZ-C, how did you manage cooperating with the now de jure DRC?”

[Dallaire] “There was no managing. It was chaos. I don’t know how to describe it- a complete breakdown of order- you know how corrupt Mobutu was, how he embezzled billions of dollars and lived like an emperor while his people starved. Any hope I had of suppressing the Interahamwe was snuffed out when the UN reinstated the same laws we had been bound by in Rwanda- no direct intervention. We had to watch as the Interahamwe butchered UN troops. They won in Rwanda, they were charged up on victorious adrenaline. Every time we headed into Kivu, we knew we could come home in a bodybag. But we were UN peacekeepers for a reason, and even if we couldn’t do anything meaningful we had to try.”

[REDACTED] “What followed after the reassignment?”

[Dallaire] “The Rwandans followed the Interahamwe into Zaire. They were after Mobutu and the Tutsi, you see. Goma, Kisangani, Mbandaka, and finally Kinshasa- everywhere the Rwandans went, they left a trail of death behind them.

[REDACTED] “You described in an interview a couple months back about shaking hands with the devil, could you elaborate on that?”

[Dallaire] “When I shook hands with them, the Interahamwe leaders that is, their hands were cold. Their hands weren’t physically cold, no, but their stares were blank, empty. It was like someone was occupying their bodies, making them do things that no one should ever do, let alone witness.”

[REDACTED] “Someone, was occupying the body? And who might that be?”

[Dallaire] “....the devil. That’s the closest description I could make. I was shaking hands with the personification of all that is evil, all that is hateful, and all that is wrong, not just in society, but all of...all of reality. And yet I did it. For the sake of peace…. I shook hands with men who butchered innocent children… who created their so-called peace with the deaths of millions…

[REDACTED] “Subject has staring deeply at [REDACTED] for over 5 minutes now. Attempt to get him out of it begins.”

Snap

Snap

Snap


[REDACTED] Romeo. Romeo. Romeo. Respond!

[Dallaire] “...right. The interview...carry on. ”

[REDACTED] “Well you did mention that you are undergoing intense treatment for PTSD, I underst-”

[Dallaire] “No. You don’t . Not at all. You didn’t see the Rwandans kill their own countrymen. You weren’t there on a UN mission, which despite its intended mission, utterly failed to keep the piece. I watched Tutsi women get openly raped, their tormentors daring us to come closer as we watched. My men…one of my men, barely twenty-two, he went back to base and blew his brains out. He was the first… and since the end of the Congo War, the rest of my men followed suit. Not a single man I commanded is alive today.

[Dallaire stops before speaking again.]

“To this day, I can’t even look at myself in the mirror for too long, because I see the faces. The ones who screamed for help, for mercy, or just a quick death. The first successful genocide happened in front of me while I watched like a goddamn tourist. And you know what? Now, the Interahamwe are marching into Burundi, the result of the UN refusing to check them while they had a chance. The UN’s supposed to ensure peace, for Christ’s sake...they could have done something.”

I could have done something.”



"Hutus of Burundi, I bring grave news today, the Inkotanyi have seized the city of Muramvya, ancestral home of the Tutsi Bami kings of Urundi who came from Ethiopia ages ago and seized your, and our, land and depleted it with their wasteful cattle, for centuries they shackled us through their feudal Buhake, an ethnic segregation which would have been shameful even for South Africa, and drove us to the bottom of the society in our own motherland.

Us Rwandans have been fortunate, we managed to evict the Tutsi monarchy and their lackeys out of this country during the 1959 revolution, becoming free once again after generations of dark age, but you, Brothers and Sisters in Burundi have been less so: Taken by the same liberating fervor as us, your hopes were dashed by Tutsi nepotistic militarists who did not replace the old oppression but doubled down on it, they devised a killing machine of an army which murdered hundreds of thousands of your Hutu peers in 1972 and continues to rule you with fear.

But fear can only do so much, a minority cannot endlessly suppress a majority, and the time has come for the Abahutu to reclaim their ancestral lands, we bring you the light that will lead you to freedom and equality through revolutions, like the one we Rwandan started in 1959, and finished in 1994, but this light will stay dim if you do not overcome the one weapons the Tutsi use to keep you down: fear, fear of their reprisal, fear of their army, but what do we have to fear? We Hutu outnumber them! So, Hutu of Burundi and the great lakes, crush this fear, become fearless and strike the Tutsi to elevate yourselves as the rightful master of your ancestral land!"


- Ndekezi "Bonaparte" Biguma, Writer and announcer for "Radio des milles collines" in 1994, "Ministre de la propagande et des médias" of the Hutu Republic of Rwanda between 1998 and 2005


Here's an English version of the map above

Inkotanyi = RPF forces
Inyenzi = cockroaches, Tutsi Refugees/RPF forces/all tutsi

Howdy, this was a collab between myself and TheKutku for MotM 7. The first map was mine, and the second one was his. Hope y'all enjoy!​
 
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