Map Thread XIX

What about the Nez Perce, what happened to them?
Well this timeline is generally brighter than ours (hence the chill Mormons) so I imagine it's more positive for the Niimíipuu as well. They, among other Indigenous groups tribes of the northwest plateau, such as the Kootenai and Skitswish, dominate the region of Grand Forks and have more extensive holdings than their OTL reservations. This is largely because, even with polygamy, the Nauvooans struggled to fill out their nation for lack of settlers, and so it was simply more logical to cooperate with native groups than oppress them.
 
well, they certainly can't maintain a 21st century technology level with only the people and resources they have: there are simply too many specialties, too many supply chains with international reach, too many raw materials that need to be imported (they have a lot of oil handy, but west Texas and eastern New Mexico don't have a lot of other natural resources). They're like to crash back to a largely 19th/early 20th century level of technology, once their current machines wear out, and even with the documentation, if they don't share their tech with other peoples, they're unlikely to ever reach an overall 21st century level of technology. Although they might well be able to make low-tech "ersatz" versions of more advanced technology (you can after all make a jet plane with only 1920s or so technology, although it will hardly match modern designs).

That being said, if the new state doesn't fall apart in the first few decades, I have some trouble not seeing it survive the bronze age crisis: if the Assyrian state managed it, I don't see why a state with modern levels of organization and at least an early 20th century level of tech and Green Revolution farming know-how doesn't survive. Especially since they'll know about the (presumed) heavy drought era in advance.

Not that it isn't possible for Tex-Mex Babylonia to screw things up badly: as of OTL 2020, both Mexican and American democracy are in poor shape, and the stresses of the ISOT might end up leading to some sort of dictatorship: a couple centuries down the road I can see it turning into something screwed up enough (say a theocratic absolutism with a stratified society, with advanced engineering but questioning "scientists" stamped out and an underclass of era-native peoples) that it collapses under it's own weight, but that isn't where I'd put my money if I was a betting man.

Edit: collapse in the sense of having no real successors. If it gets big enough, I can see regional differences leading to a breakup, but there would be clear inheritor states.
I could completely believe that a post-ISOT union could break up into multiple pieces, following technological degradation, authoritarian rule, and possibly even civil war. But as you say, there would at least be successor states continuing modern culture and likely claiming the old titles of America and Mexico.

They might avoid absorbing Israel for religious reasons, and Egypt had about 2-3 million people, which would be like OTL US absorbing both Sudans plus Senegal (not to mention Egypt's population should increasing sharpish with the import of new crops and even the most basic of sanitary and medical know-how) but yeah, if the state remains functional it is likely to expand rather further than shown on the map.
I take your point on Egypt, Israel didn't really exist in 1400 BCE. I assumed the existence of a united monotheistic Israel was the result of uptime interference.

A map for@Vasilas 's "Out of the Ashes", a world where the Byzantine Empire successfully expands against Islam and becomes again the dominant power west of China. (Call it Roman, though: they don't care for the term "Byzantine.")
Very nice, it's rare to see Russia as a genuine great democratic hope.

You know, that is a point I thought about initially (I looked at ethnic/linguistic maps and such) and then went "Nah, who cares, it's not meant to be detailed." But I did think about using Tahas (Tejas) or something deriving from Republica Del Rio Grande and a banner based on the OTL historical Rio Grande republic flag, or just having it be "American" but with Spanish as an official language which out competes English in day to day use, I'm not sure how many of the Mexican/Hispanic people in southern Texas see themselves primarily as Mexicans and how many see themselves as Americans first, which could be important to the scenario if I was trying to flesh it out. TBH, I'm kind of tempted to redo stuff and go more in depth now that the map has gotten so much attention, though I am really busy RN and had other plans.

Thanks for the feedback.
Not a problem! Thank you for making such detailed and excellent maps. If you do decide to flesh out the scenario more I'd love to see it.
 
Here's a quick experimental work for the RDNA-verse. This one, focusing on a probable outcome for New Austria herself itself, being heavily inspired by the "focus tree" mechanic of Hearts of Iron IV, combined with the stylings of both the Thousand Week Reich and The New Order mods. The DeviantArt version can be found here.

Presented as an in-universe work (complete with "vidscreen" effects), this is meant to show a projected scenario on what would happen should The Long Cold War that's lasted for about a century finally go hot. While it's only one set of possibilities out of many, it nonetheless gives an idea of just how severe the predicament of New Austria (and the world at large) really is. Though whether it's from (and intended for) the people behind An Examination of Extra-Universal Systems of Government or the Agency mentioned in other maps, to say nothing of the "N-P Identity" reference which may or may not be shorthand for "Nation-Personification"...I'll leave that up for you to decide.

At any rate, hope you enjoy this one!

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On Contemporary New Austrians

...At the same time, the turmoil wrought by the Terror has since left a lasting mark on New Austrians, long after chaos the forged the Collectivist Internationale subsided. A sizable number are descended from refugees escaping the Crownlands in the 1920s as the Danube crumbled, Most of the “Non-New Austrians” among the population meanwhile include the Spanish groups in Kuba and Swiss communities across the Crown Provinces. In fact, the countryside still bears preserved traces of the Upheaval that ensured, which threatened to destroy the realm at its darkest hour. Combined with the clout Revivalist organizations have in government and society as well as the constant threat from the Internationale, there is little wonder as to why the monarchy to this day is still referred to as the Throne-in-Exile. Or why, despite unpopular objections from some politicians and fringe republicans, the R.D.N.A. considers itself as such rather than the independent “Archduchy” that it would be in practice.

As certain foreign journalists claim, the desire to reclaim the former Crownlands continues to haunt the national zeitgeist. But against tremendous odds, New Austria continues to persevere. Both as a memorial to a lost world and a beacon for carrying Mitteleuropa’s legacy into a better future. Perhaps in the hopes in outlasting those who have torched the Old World in the flames of Revolution....

...Despite such chaotic episodes, the R.D.N.A. refused to give in to self-destruction. Soon it rose back into prominence, eventually rejoining the other Free Nations as a great power in its own right even while keeping vigil over the Collectivist territories in what was once Panama. A distinguished and honourable position that the realm has maintained throughout the 20th Century and to this day.

- Snippet from “Atlas Sans Frontieres: The Gaspereau-Thomson Guide to the New World.” Loyalist Canada. 2023.

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For some added trivia, on top of Viribus Unitis being a motto traditionally associated with the Habsburgs, the German operation names are partially based on World War II standards.

Der Letzter Ausweg is German for "The Last Resort." With the last "events" of the tree a reference to both the infamous Final Solution (if applied to the world at large) and the "Bad End" scenario from The New Order.

As for the "National Question"...well, I can neither confirm nor deny what the answer is.
;)


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Absolutely chilling. Incredible work, both of you.
Thanks for the kind words. We did put a lot of effort into making these maps, and it's nice to know people enjoy them.

What a dark and horrifying mirror to our own history.
Well it's more a darker version of the already dark events that occurred in Rwanda, but I do understand the reasoning behind this

Otl was bad enough, but this...ay.
Indeed.

To go on a tangent, I had this on my mind since it was a topic rarely discussed in AH (excepting some old scenarios which I binged, like Motel Rwanda). I legitimately enjoy exploring these topics because it interests me; how mankind can show its worst excesses as publicly as possible, a well as the ramifications of such depravity. So Kutku and I do understand some of the reactions to it since it is a morally black topic, as well as the issues on presenting it in a respectable way, and I think we managed to do just that (respectfully showing a touchy subject that is).

We hope you enjoyed the scenario though, it was really enjoyable to make, the both of us.
 
Well it's more a darker version of the already dark events that occurred in Rwanda, but I do understand the reasoning of this
What I was mostly referring to is that instead of anti-genociders pursuing genocidaires into Congo after winning in Rwanda, here triumphant pro-genociders go into Congo to spread the fun.
 
What I was mostly referring to is that instead of anti-genocide groups pursuing genocidaires into Congo, here pro-genocide groups go into Congo to spread the fun.
Ah, that makes much more sense now. Indeed, the Interahamwe go ballistic and start spreading the Hutu extremist doctrine into Zaire by force, all with weapons supplied by France before the genocide kicked off. It really is depressing to think about once the scope of it all is realized.
 
On a lighter note, I have three ideas for a Philippines-wank. Which sounds better:

1. Ming reestablish themselves in Taiwan and the Philippines, Qing effort to root them out fails, and a few centuries later we have the glorious and malay-ized Empire of the Hai or Sea Ming

2. Philippines get independence fairly early in the 19th century, maybe get a spare Catholic king or something (did someone do a TL where Maximilian ends up in the Philippines rather than Mexico?), and they miss out on a lot of the economic wrong turns of OTL and are on a par with Japan by 2020

3. Future TL, where Filipinos never give up on having kids, and by the 23rd century the Philippines (now a single island due to geoengineering to build more land) are one of the world's Great Powers, along with India, Nigeria, and Greater Texas.
 
2. Philippines get independence fairly early in the 19th century, maybe get a spare Catholic king or something (did someone do a TL where Maximilian ends up in the Philippines rather than Mexico?), and they miss out on a lot of the economic wrong turns of OTL and are on a par with Japan by 2020
This one does sound promising. Or alternatively, a Philippines where the Spanish in Madrid were more successful in pushing for reforms, resulting in more muted calls for independence, if not eventual Autonomous Community status.
 
. Ming reestablish themselves in Taiwan and the Philippines, Qing effort to root them out fails, and a few centuries later we have the glorious and malay-ized Empire of the Hai or Sea Ming
Or maybe Zheng He's expeditions open the way for a wave of Chinese pirates/migrants to establish Kongsi Republic style states? The *Kongsi elite and sinicized Filipinos like the Pangansinan then form the gentry aristocracy of a Ming-in-exile once a Kosinga expy decides to flee South.
 
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RWANDAN GENOCIDE MEMORANDUM
SUBJECT: THE RWANDAN GENOCIDE
PARTICIPANTS: [REDACTED], [Roméo Antonius Dallaire]
DATE, TIME, AND PLACE: 5 MARCH 10:22-10:53 PM UTC + 3 NAIROBI

[REDACTED] “I understand the difficulty in discussing the genocide, no one should watch the wanton slaughter of over a million souls.”

[Dallaire] “No. No one should. You can call it a genocide, but really, what happened in Rwanda was the release of what lies in the darkest recesses of our souls, torn into the daylight for all to see. No other genocide can compare to it.”

[REDACTED] “When you mean by that, do you mean that it cannot be compared to any other genocide, say the Holocaust?”

[Dallaire] “There were no death squads, no concentration camps, no concept of living space and inferior races to be cleansed. You had these things with the Nazis. But the Rwandan Genocide was different from any other genocide because it was and still remains a personal genocide. You must understand that the Holocaust was ordered, calculated, planned by a central government. But in Rwanda, these ordinary people, they killed their family, their friends, their neighbors, all in hatred of a group that most historians and linguists consider to be exactly identical to themselves.”

[REDACTED] “It didn’t stop? Not even when the government intervened?”

[Dallaire] “No. It was unlike anything we’ve ever seen. At least the Americans were able to restore order and build up a prosperous Europe. But there… the chaos consumed Zaire, replaced it with the Kivu death-state, all trying to kill as many people as they could get their hands on.

“It won, we lost.”

[REDACTED] ‘Do you know how many were killed in the genocide?”

[Dallaire] “I think there were a thousand in Kigali as we withdrew.”

[REDACTED] “A thousand?”

[Dallaire] “Just from a couple blocks. One thousand bodies, bloated from death. You could see the wounds- lacerations to the head, blows to the sternum. You could see people desecrating them further, others looting the corpses for anything they hadn’t missed. There was even a man collecting heads with a machete. Hacking them off and throwing them into a sack.

[REDACTED] “If I may ask, what exactly happened after Habyarimana’s death?”

[Dallaire] deep breath

“After the president’s death, they hacked Agathe, the prime minister, to pieces, then the UN troops supposed to protect her. I think they were trying to scare me out of the country. Yet...I found myself determined to stay, if only in remembrance for my fallen men. But even that was a difficult task. You see, the UN reduced my command to less than a thousand men. Meanwhile, over 100,000 civilians, both Tutsi and Hutu moderates, were massacred in the span of two weeks. That makes you wonder...what’s the point of the United Nations peacekeeping mission if you can’t defend anyone?

[REDACTED] “If I may ask, what were some of the challenges that you had to face while acting as the head of UNAMIR?”

[Dallaire] “Like I just said. It was restricting, to say the least. UNAMIR, the UN command in Rwanda, couldn’t act, couldn’t intervene and stop thousands from being slaughtered with machetes, saws, AKs, whatever the Hutus had in hand. The Interahamwe mocked us as we went on our patrols, butchering Tutsis in front of us because they knew that our hand was forcefully stayed. We could have done something… but we were there on UN orders, and the UN prevented us from doing what was right.”

[REDACTED] “When UNAMIR was reorganized into UNAMIZ-C, how did you manage cooperating with the now de jure DRC?”

[Dallaire] “There was no managing. It was chaos. I don’t know how to describe it- a complete breakdown of order- you know how corrupt Mobutu was, how he embezzled billions of dollars and lived like an emperor while his people starved. Any hope I had of suppressing the Interahamwe was snuffed out when the UN reinstated the same laws we had been bound by in Rwanda- no direct intervention. We had to watch as the Interahamwe butchered UN troops. They won in Rwanda, they were charged up on victorious adrenaline. Every time we headed into Kivu, we knew we could come home in a bodybag. But we were UN peacekeepers for a reason, and even if we couldn’t do anything meaningful we had to try.”

[REDACTED] “What followed after the reassignment?”

[Dallaire] “The Rwandans followed the Interahamwe into Zaire. They were after Mobutu and the Tutsi, you see. Goma, Kisangani, Mbandaka, and finally Kinshasa- everywhere the Rwandans went, they left a trail of death behind them.

[REDACTED] “You described in an interview a couple months back about shaking hands with the devil, could you elaborate on that?”

[Dallaire] “When I shook hands with them, the Interahamwe leaders that is, their hands were cold. Their hands weren’t physically cold, no, but their stares were blank, empty. It was like someone was occupying their bodies, making them do things that no one should ever do, let alone witness.”

[REDACTED] “Someone, was occupying the body? And who might that be?”

[Dallaire] “....the devil. That’s the closest description I could make. I was shaking hands with the personification of all that is evil, all that is hateful, and all that is wrong, not just in society, but all of...all of reality. And yet I did it. For the sake of peace…. I shook hands with men who butchered innocent children… who created their so-called peace with the deaths of millions…

[REDACTED] “Subject has staring deeply at [REDACTED] for over 5 minutes now. Attempt to get him out of it begins.”

Snap

Snap

Snap


[REDACTED] Romeo. Romeo. Romeo. Respond!

[Dallaire] “...right. The interview...carry on. ”

[REDACTED] “Well you did mention that you are undergoing intense treatment for PTSD, I underst-”

[Dallaire] “No. You don’t . Not at all. You didn’t see the Rwandans kill their own countrymen. You weren’t there on a UN mission, which despite its intended mission, utterly failed to keep the piece. I watched Tutsi women get openly raped, their tormentors daring us to come closer as we watched. My men…one of my men, barely twenty-two, he went back to base and blew his brains out. He was the first… and since the end of the Congo War, the rest of my men followed suit. Not a single man I commanded is alive today.

[Dallaire stops before speaking again.]

“To this day, I can’t even look at myself in the mirror for too long, because I see the faces. The ones who screamed for help, for mercy, or just a quick death. The first successful genocide happened in front of me while I watched like a goddamn tourist. And you know what? Now, the Interahamwe are marching into Burundi, the result of the UN refusing to check them while they had a chance. The UN’s supposed to ensure peace, for Christ’s sake...they could have done something.”

I could have done something.”



"Hutus of Burundi, I bring grave news today, the Inkotanyi have seized the city of Muramvya, ancestral home of the Tutsi Bami kings of Urundi who came from Ethiopia ages ago and seized your, and our, land and depleted it with their wasteful cattle, for centuries they shackled us through their feudal Buhake, an ethnic segregation which would have been shameful even for South Africa, and drove us to the bottom of the society in our own motherland.

Us Rwandans have been fortunate, we managed to evict the Tutsi monarchy and their lackeys out of this country during the 1959 revolution, becoming free once again after generations of dark age, but you, Brothers and Sisters in Burundi have been less so: Taken by the same liberating fervor as us, your hopes were dashed by Tutsi nepotistic militarists who did not replace the old oppression but doubled down on it, they devised a killing machine of an army which murdered hundreds of thousands of your Hutu peers in 1972 and continues to rule you with fear.

But fear can only do so much, a minority cannot endlessly suppress a majority, and the time has come for the Abahutu to reclaim their ancestral lands, we bring you the light that will lead you to freedom and equality through revolutions, like the one we Rwandan started in 1959, and finished in 1994, but this light will stay dim if you do not overcome the one weapons the Tutsi use to keep you down: fear, fear of their reprisal, fear of their army, but what do we have to fear? We Hutu outnumber them! So, Hutu of Burundi and the great lakes, crush this fear, become fearless and strike the Tutsi to elevate yourselves as the rightful master of your ancestral land!"


- Ndekezi "Bonaparte" Biguma, Writer and announcer for "Radio des milles collines" in 1994, "Ministre de la propagande et des médias" of the Hutu Republic of Rwanda between 1998 and 2005


Here's an English version of the map above

Inkotanyi = RPF forces
Inyenzi = cockroaches, Tutsi Refugees/RPF forces/all tutsi

Howdy, this was a collab between myself and TheKutku for MotM 7. The first map was mine, and the second one was his. Hope y'all enjoy!​
Well, well, well... What an beautiful patch of nightmare fuel to brighten the day! With a bow showing how disturbed Rwanda is in its nazi-esque encarnation
 
On a lighter note, I have three ideas for a Philippines-wank. Which sounds better:

1. Ming reestablish themselves in Taiwan and the Philippines, Qing effort to root them out fails, and a few centuries later we have the glorious and malay-ized Empire of the Hai or Sea Ming

2. Philippines get independence fairly early in the 19th century, maybe get a spare Catholic king or something (did someone do a TL where Maximilian ends up in the Philippines rather than Mexico?), and they miss out on a lot of the economic wrong turns of OTL and are on a par with Japan by 2020

3. Future TL, where Filipinos never give up on having kids, and by the 23rd century the Philippines (now a single island due to geoengineering to build more land) are one of the world's Great Powers, along with India, Nigeria, and Greater Texas.
I love the idea of Sea Ming! Would they still lay claim to the Mainland or even try to recover it at some point?
 
Ah, that makes much more sense now. Indeed, the Interahamwe go ballistic and start spreading the Hutu extremist doctrine into Zaire by force, all with weapons supplied by France before the genocide kicked off. It really is depressing to think about once the scope of it all is realized.
Yeah, I guess I can see how my first remark may have come off as though I wasn't familiar with the Rwandan Genocide at all, instead of "Wow, OTL was terrible, this is even worse."
 
I was going to wait to finish this to post here.... But whatever
I am going to make a thread when I finish it.
TANS is something I've been working on for two days. It's a middle ground between TACOS and TOASTER. Although on the smaller side. Hope everyone enjoys this pre-finished version!
I strongly suggest you remove the word "interchangeable." It seems quite insulting.
 
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