Map Thread VI
- Thread starter Ian the Admin
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Making them... more able to build up again. And still pissed off at France (though, to be fair: that might be France specifically, rather than the Entente in general).Well, Germany doesn't have its balls ripped off ITTL, reparations-wise...
Susano
Banned
Red Alert, eh? I vote that in this world Germany doesnt stand against Stalin, but allies with the Stalin equivalent to regain the Saarland
Uh... yes?
Yes, well, maybe, but the Sundanese didnt declare independance from IndonesiaBalinese are much closer related to Javanese than the Sundanese !!
Besides, relationship between ethnicities is a meaningless measure. Switzerland is made up of one Germanic and three Romance ethnicities, and yet still has one national identity. *shrugs* Thats basically what Java did. It dropped all pretenses of being an "Universalist" Indonesian state, and instead declared "We are the nation-state of the Javanese, Sundanese and Madurese". With Malay Indonesian remaining as fourth language.
Hm, I did wonder wether to make Madura a cross between a true nation state and a sort of "Vatican" for the Nahdlatul Ulama, but decided that would be too silly, so, yes, its part of Java. And regionalisms and ideological differences, bah, every culture has them. They are neglectableEven the Javanese themselves are disunited. Central Java is basically the "West Java" while ideologically Javanese are divided into Orthodox-Muslim north and Abangan-South. Let alone all the petty localisms and sh**ts !!
A United Javanese state is possible, but certainly not a unitary one
But Madura has a terrible soil, so they can be an autonomous part of the Federation
Er... uh... its called OTL?Oh wait, in the world where Papua is united, you SPLIT TIMOR ISLAND ??!!! D:
(Mind, people say I do the same with Austria, a la "What? Independant Austria?" "Yes, Susano, its OTL", so I cant really complain about you
)From what Ive read the entire island is a confusing mess of different ethnicities, and the eastern main ones dont particularily like the western ones anyways, and vice versa, so they have no reason to unite.
Yeah, well, that is exactly the reason for the "Uh... loose Confederation!" copoutYour divisions of Sulawesi and Kalimantan are also not complicated enough
Also there dont seem to be any ethnic maps for the region So the largest ethnicities got their own state, but the rest I just assumed to be subsumed under that confederation.Err, the who-what-where now?
Yay! Instability! Fits well within a dystopian setting, no?
Also, Central Sulawesi? Isnt the interior of the island all jungle?
[qiote]Also, why not a restored Lan Fang versus Malay-Dayak alliance in West Kalimantan ?
[/quote]Malay-Dalak? The Malay belonged to those ethnicities ethnically cleansed by the Dalak
And the Chinese dont seem to have much of a presence outside the ports. While OTOH Dalak Borneo would have need of a modern port. A much enlarged Kuching is hence now Borneos only true sprawl... *googles* Well, Kaharingan would be the main religion of the Confederation anyways. It would have been Kaharingan Shamans using the magic to drive the Indonesian forces away (and to do the ethnic cleansings), after all. Which also puts a dent in your visions for christian-muslim violence, come to think of it. Really, the Confederation would be mostly the, ah, less developed, traditional ethnicities with a strong return to old folk beliefs...Oh, and won't also be enough without Balinese set up a Kaharingan state as a protectorate....
Ah. I see then. Okay, then my provisional notion of a Bugis state with a rather repressed Makassar ethnicity makes halfways sense?
*googles again* *shrugs* Several languages, no unitary ethnicity it seems
I just made their area part of Aceh...
Alex Richards
Donor
You'll be able to find a world map in the site I linked you in the origina; post. Also, would you mind PMing me screenshots or whatever so I could work up the scenario into a maps on Paint.net (mainly as a way of experimenting with the program)?
1) Yes, well, maybe, but the Sundanese didnt declare independance from Indonesia
Besides, relationship between ethnicities is a meaningless measure. Switzerland is made up of one Germanic and three Romance ethnicities, and yet still has one national identity. *shrugs* Thats basically what Java did. It dropped all pretenses of being an "Universalist" Indonesian state, and instead declared "We are the nation-state of the Javanese, Sundanese and Madurese". With Malay Indonesian remaining as fourth language.
2) Er... uh... its called OTL?
(Mind, people say I do the same with Austria, a la "What? Independant Austria?" "Yes, Susano, its OTL", so I cant really complain about you
3) From what Ive read the entire island is a confusing mess of different ethnicities, and the eastern main ones dont particularily like the western ones anyways, and vice versa, so they have no reason to unite.
4) Yeah, well, that is exactly the reason for the "Uh... loose Confederation!" copout
5) Err, the who-what-where now?
6) Yay! Instability! Fits well within a dystopian setting, no?
Also, Central Sulawesi? Isnt the interior of the island all jungle?
7) Malay-Dalak? The Malay belonged to those ethnicities ethnically cleansed by the Dalak
8) *googles* Well, Kaharingan would be the main religion of the Confederation anyways. It would have been Kaharingan Shamans using the magic to drive the Indonesian forces away (and to do the ethnic cleansings), after all. Which also puts a dent in your visions for christian-muslim violence, come to think of it. Really, the Confederation would be mostly the, ah, less developed, traditional ethnicities with a strong return to old folk beliefs...
9) Ah. I see then. Okay, then my provisional notion of a Bugis state with a rather repressed Makassar ethnicity makes halfways sense?
10) *googles again* *shrugs* Several languages, no unitary ethnicity it seems
1) You simply don't know how Javanese-Sundanese relations really fair....
Besides, with Indonesia gone, they'll be basically alone in facing the Javanese. Without the splashes of Jakarta's wealth and indeed Jakarta's protection, they don't have anymore reason to be side by side with the Javanese.... Besides, they're ethnically and linguistically closer to Sumatra, so it'll be against your ideals
2) So West Papua doesn't unit with PNG then ?
3) Indeed. Not to mention Catholic-Protestant issue....
4) Actually Kalimantan and Sulawesi can just stand alone each. Maybe there will be a confederation of the rest of Kalimantan outside of Banjar, but it'll be only in Kalimantan. Sulawesi should have their own, that if possible...
5) Google "North Sulawesi" and "Gorontalo". Gorontalo was once part of North Sulawesi province but the split so as to give Gorontalonese Muslim freedom from Christian Manado domination.
6) Well, I'd suggest this arrangement :
a) Christian Minahasa Republic based in Manado
b) Gorontalo Islamic Republic
c) Loose Confederation over the rest of the island that is as loose as you intended to be, or a de jure united Republic with official capital in Makassar but in reality the government seat there has little authority outside of the city. That seems more relevant with ethnic-cultural composition of the island.
7) No, the dividing line is between Chinese people and the Pribumi. With the lack of Madurans, the first and foremost target for Dayaks to genocide will most certainly be the Chinese (that happened several times historically IOTL anyway). The Malays' if anything, will be more then willing to help. West Kalimantan Malays are kinda like the Banjars in South Kalimantan (themselves are also basically Malays) which have been almost always be in cordial relationship with the neighboring Dayaks and even very slowly absorb them. The "Malays" are basically muslim Dayaks anyway....
8) "Hindu" Kaharingan is rather exclusive to Central Kalimantan only. Some in the most interior of West Kalimantan, but in interior East Kalimantan the Dayaks are predominantly Christians. The point about general animistic traditions of magical arts still mostly stands though. And indeed in reality, there were indeed efforts made by Balinese to standardize Hindu ritual practice nationally, and while the Dayaks certainly resented that.... OK, maybe not protectorate, but instead Balinese as one of the reasons to stick together ?
9) United Bugis state will certainly have Makassar as the natural center of gravity, but indeed it won't be an easy thing to unite the hot-blooded Bugismen. Maybe you should do my suggestion above....
Btw, don't forget that Bugis are traditional enterpreneur-adventurer-pirates, so I can see the areas stretched from Kalimantan to Papua to Mindanao to Northern Australia be their play ground, in a certain, Viking-esque way....
10) Bataks are not as homogenous as most Indonesians seem to think about them, but they have much more in common with each other then with another elses. Also, they are Christian majority, if barely, but Bataks' first identity is to their marga, with religion a rather distant second. Aceh rule over them will be.... problematic... to say the least, but a Ethiopia-Somalia type of interaction seems to be the most fitting.
Susano
Banned
*fusing points again, especially about Borneo/Celebes*
Borneo+Celebes are supposed to be the Dayak Confederation, in fact. Its supposed to be equivalent as said to the Amerindian States in Shadowrun: Established by the peoples with still halfways animistic beliefs, ethnically cleansing the rest, and establishing a magic centered state. And yes, also totally ignoring that there in fact are not enough animistic peoples out there anymore - its the same in case of the Amerindian states, who taken together have a population of 90m or so, even though there are these days only 2.7m natives anymore in the USA. Though, as you say, with Christian-Animistic and Muslim-Animistic mixes it could even be enough people, if the animistic components are strengthened - and the return of magic oughta do that! That is also why primarily the Malays have to go, so to say, instead of the Chinese, though therell be ethnic cleansing of the latter, too. To "cut the ties", so to say.
And since their old ways magically work now, I dont think they have any reason to follow Balis religious leadership. Though yes, the Balinese state is in fact all about Hindu religion and mysticism.
Oh, and actually, I do remember looking up Gorantalo. Its part of the North Molucces Federation. But, uh, so is North Sulawesi... well, not a particularily close Federation then, eh? Hrm, indeed my spare notes say "instable federation of most various states - islamic, animistic, mixed etc."
Hm, which means only central Celebes and the South-estern "leg" would be part of the "Dayak" Confederation anyways. But why not? I think most ethnicities there would rather join that loose Confederation than come under Bugis rule!
And yes, Papua does united with PNG, but its mostly an Australian protectorate with few authorities outside the coastal cities. WAY too much of an ethnic chaos in the interior, and these days all those small ethnicities have magically powerful shamans again, after all! OTOH, it doesnt get all the weapons and stuff Timor receives, so Timor is still more wartorn, while PNG has the old ritualised ways of war (which are destructive enough if one looks behind all the romanticism, but still kept in check by something).
As for the Bataks... Christian majority you say? Hm... Aceh is supposed to be rather, err, muslim-fundamentalist. Well, I guess that means constant jungle guerilla war then. Heh, poor Bataks, fit between Islamist Fundamentalists (to whom they technically belong) and Malay Supremacists in East Sumatra!
Oh, and of course, theres another matter: Japan as the worlds superpower, mainly via its corporations. The Philippines are already a full Japanese protectorate, and I think some Indonesian states will be de facto vasalls. Most likely the economically better developed and generally least offensive ones... South Sumatra, Java, Banjar, Bugis... hm, Makassar maybe as naval base to use against the pirates from the Molucces and the Lesser Sunda Islands...
Borneo+Celebes are supposed to be the Dayak Confederation, in fact. Its supposed to be equivalent as said to the Amerindian States in Shadowrun: Established by the peoples with still halfways animistic beliefs, ethnically cleansing the rest, and establishing a magic centered state. And yes, also totally ignoring that there in fact are not enough animistic peoples out there anymore - its the same in case of the Amerindian states, who taken together have a population of 90m or so, even though there are these days only 2.7m natives anymore in the USA. Though, as you say, with Christian-Animistic and Muslim-Animistic mixes it could even be enough people, if the animistic components are strengthened - and the return of magic oughta do that! That is also why primarily the Malays have to go, so to say, instead of the Chinese, though therell be ethnic cleansing of the latter, too. To "cut the ties", so to say.
And since their old ways magically work now, I dont think they have any reason to follow Balis religious leadership. Though yes, the Balinese state is in fact all about Hindu religion and mysticism.
Oh, and actually, I do remember looking up Gorantalo. Its part of the North Molucces Federation. But, uh, so is North Sulawesi... well, not a particularily close Federation then, eh? Hrm, indeed my spare notes say "instable federation of most various states - islamic, animistic, mixed etc."
Hm, which means only central Celebes and the South-estern "leg" would be part of the "Dayak" Confederation anyways. But why not? I think most ethnicities there would rather join that loose Confederation than come under Bugis rule!
And yes, Papua does united with PNG, but its mostly an Australian protectorate with few authorities outside the coastal cities. WAY too much of an ethnic chaos in the interior, and these days all those small ethnicities have magically powerful shamans again, after all! OTOH, it doesnt get all the weapons and stuff Timor receives, so Timor is still more wartorn, while PNG has the old ritualised ways of war (which are destructive enough if one looks behind all the romanticism, but still kept in check by something).
As for the Bataks... Christian majority you say? Hm... Aceh is supposed to be rather, err, muslim-fundamentalist. Well, I guess that means constant jungle guerilla war then. Heh, poor Bataks, fit between Islamist Fundamentalists (to whom they technically belong) and Malay Supremacists in East Sumatra!
Oh, and of course, theres another matter: Japan as the worlds superpower, mainly via its corporations. The Philippines are already a full Japanese protectorate, and I think some Indonesian states will be de facto vasalls. Most likely the economically better developed and generally least offensive ones... South Sumatra, Java, Banjar, Bugis... hm, Makassar maybe as naval base to use against the pirates from the Molucces and the Lesser Sunda Islands...
1) If the Malays ought to go, and so do the Chinese. Heck ! Chinese will have it first ! Then maybe Dayaks can turn towards the Malays afterwards, so now they have a nice, pure Dayak Confederation....
2) Well it's not like Bali ought to agree with that motion
And than the nasty... fun will ensue.... 3) Moluccans are half Melanesians while Minahasans are Deutero-Malays, sometimes can look rather Chinese-like.
4) Except that, you know... Sulawesi will have its own confederation instead joining the Dayaks' one across the strait. Sulawesi has more rabidly Islamic and Christian peoples predominant throughout the island after all...
5) Acehnese will be a tough fight for the Bataks (though certainly vice versa as well).... but sissy Malays can just have their ass red for trying
Also, interior Bataks do have a good deal of animistic traditions running on, and you must have heard about their cannibalistic ancestors.....
Or else you have failed utterly 6) Bugis are pirates themselves... though that doesn't mean they always have to confront the Japanese....
Besides, I'm sure the Japs would know how to draw manpower more efficiently for their adventure in this region....
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Thande
Donor
That's not a Hibernowank. With a sufficiently early POD, pretty much all of that is plausible, except maybe the Manchuria-China bit (well, I suppose it could just be a sphere of inlfuence/protectorate).
Here's a map of my game in Heart of Iron 2.
It's about 6 months in the war with both the Allies and the ComIntern fighting one another.
The nations in Western China are Tibet, Nationalist China (Yellow-Green color) the N.C. Puppet (Yellow), Communist China (Rouge color) and two Warlord states.
Czechoslovakia is in the Comintern but isn't a puppet of the Soviet Union. As well, both East Germany and Romania are smaller while Hungry is larger.
Also, Vietnam and Jordan is a puppet of the UK. Iraq became a British Dominion while the British Raj split between India and Pakistan. The two latter became independent of Britain.
It's about 6 months in the war with both the Allies and the ComIntern fighting one another.
The nations in Western China are Tibet, Nationalist China (Yellow-Green color) the N.C. Puppet (Yellow), Communist China (Rouge color) and two Warlord states.
Czechoslovakia is in the Comintern but isn't a puppet of the Soviet Union. As well, both East Germany and Romania are smaller while Hungry is larger.
Also, Vietnam and Jordan is a puppet of the UK. Iraq became a British Dominion while the British Raj split between India and Pakistan. The two latter became independent of Britain.
Is that from an EU3 game or did you just use the EU3 map?
My new map (the sequel to the north-africa-2096-map):
Coalition (yellow, light green, reddish) vs. Allies (blue)
Coalition (yellow, light green, reddish) vs. Allies (blue)
Glen
Moderator
From my Dominion of Southern America timeline:
The United States of America grew substanially in the first part of the 19th century. Increased immigration as well as territorial expansion westward and defeat of the tribes of the Northwest Territory in the first decade of the 19th century saw new states in the west following in the footsteps of Ohio, the first state to arise from the Northwest Territory. The new states of Ontario and Wabash were added just a few years after Ohio, and were bastions for the Democratic-Republican Party.
The State of Ohio was the first to be carved out of the Northwest Territory with these boundaries:
Ohio was settled mostly by Pennsylvanians and Virginians of English and German extraction and Protestant leanings (including Deist). After abolition, some Black Americans moved into Ohio from Virginia as well.
The State of Ontario was given the following boundaries:
The State of Ontario was settled predominantly by a mix of Quebeckers and other Francophones, including many Deists, seeking to escape the seigneurial system, immigrant Catholic Scots and Irish, and German, Dutch, and Anglophone Deists and other Protestants from New York and Pennsylvania. Most Native peoples in the area were forced to assimilate and take up a more agrarian lifestyle or to migrate north along the northern coast of Lake Huron.
The State of Wabash was delineated with these borders:
The State of Wabash was settled mostly by Kentuckians, Viriginans, and Pensylvanians, much like Ohio. A few settlers from Ohio in fact moved further west to the new state. There was also a small influx of settlers from the British Appalachians.
The United States of America grew substanially in the first part of the 19th century. Increased immigration as well as territorial expansion westward and defeat of the tribes of the Northwest Territory in the first decade of the 19th century saw new states in the west following in the footsteps of Ohio, the first state to arise from the Northwest Territory. The new states of Ontario and Wabash were added just a few years after Ohio, and were bastions for the Democratic-Republican Party.
The State of Ohio was the first to be carved out of the Northwest Territory with these boundaries:
- In the north by the 42nd parallel North to Lake Erie.
- In the east by the border of Pennsylvania to the Ohio River.
- In the south along the Ohio River to its juncture with the Great Miami River
- In the west a line due north from the juncture where the Great Miami River meets the Ohio River
Ohio was settled mostly by Pennsylvanians and Virginians of English and German extraction and Protestant leanings (including Deist). After abolition, some Black Americans moved into Ohio from Virginia as well.
The State of Ontario was given the following boundaries:
- In the north by the French River and Lake Nipissing
- In the east by the border of the state of Quebec which stretched along a line from the southern end of Lake Nipissing to where the St. Lawrence River met the 45th parallel north
- In the south along the St Lawrence River to Lake Ontario, the Niagara River, and Lake Erie as its southern border
- In the west up the Detroit River, Lake St. Clair, the St. Clair River, and Lake Huron into Washington Bay and the outlet of the French River.
The State of Ontario was settled predominantly by a mix of Quebeckers and other Francophones, including many Deists, seeking to escape the seigneurial system, immigrant Catholic Scots and Irish, and German, Dutch, and Anglophone Deists and other Protestants from New York and Pennsylvania. Most Native peoples in the area were forced to assimilate and take up a more agrarian lifestyle or to migrate north along the northern coast of Lake Huron.
The State of Wabash was delineated with these borders:
- In the north by the 42nd parallel North from Lake Michigan to the border with Ohio
- In the east a line south along the Ohio border to the juncture of the Great Miami River and Ohio River
- In the south along the Ohio River to its juncture with the Wabash River
- In the west up the Wabash River to where it veers northeast, and then a line straight north to Lake Michigan.
The State of Wabash was settled mostly by Kentuckians, Viriginans, and Pensylvanians, much like Ohio. A few settlers from Ohio in fact moved further west to the new state. There was also a small influx of settlers from the British Appalachians.
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Glen
Moderator
The United States of America grew substanially in the first part of the 19th century. Increased immigration as well as territorial expansion westward and defeat of the tribes of the Northwest Territory in the first decade of the 19th century saw new states in the west following in the footsteps of Ohio, the first state to arise from the Northwest Territory. The new states of Ontario and Wabash were added just a few years after Ohio, and were bastions for the Democratic-Republican Party.
The State of Ohio was the first to be carved out of the Northwest Territory with these boundaries:
Ohio was settled mostly by Pennsylvanians and Virginians of English and German extraction and Protestant leanings (including Deist). After abolition, some Black Americans moved into Ohio from Virginia as well.
The State of Ontario was given the following boundaries:
The State of Ontario was settled predominantly by a mix of Quebeckers and other Francophones, including many Deists, seeking to escape the seigneurial system, immigrant Catholic Scots and Irish, and German, Dutch, and Anglophone Deists and other Protestants from New York and Pennsylvania. Most Native peoples in the area were forced to assimilate and take up a more agrarian lifestyle or to migrate north along the northern coast of Lake Huron.
The State of Wabash was delineated with these borders:
The State of Wabash was settled mostly by Kentuckians, Viriginans, and Pensylvanians, much like Ohio. A few settlers from Ohio in fact moved further west to the new state. There was also a small influx of settlers from the British Appalachians.
The State of Ohio was the first to be carved out of the Northwest Territory with these boundaries:
- In the north by the 42nd parallel North to Lake Erie.
- In the east by the border of Pennsylvania to the Ohio River.
- In the south along the Ohio River to its juncture with the Great Miami River
- In the west a line due north from the juncture where the Great Miami River meets the Ohio River
Ohio was settled mostly by Pennsylvanians and Virginians of English and German extraction and Protestant leanings (including Deist). After abolition, some Black Americans moved into Ohio from Virginia as well.
The State of Ontario was given the following boundaries:
- In the north by the French River and Lake Nipissing
- In the east by the border of the state of Quebec which stretched along a line from the southern end of Lake Nipissing to where the St. Lawrence River met the 45th parallel north
- In the south along the St Lawrence River to Lake Ontario, the Niagara River, and Lake Erie as its southern border
- In the west up the Detroit River, Lake St. Clair, the St. Clair River, and Lake Huron into Washington Bay and the outlet of the French River.
The State of Ontario was settled predominantly by a mix of Quebeckers and other Francophones, including many Deists, seeking to escape the seigneurial system, immigrant Catholic Scots and Irish, and German, Dutch, and Anglophone Deists and other Protestants from New York and Pennsylvania. Most Native peoples in the area were forced to assimilate and take up a more agrarian lifestyle or to migrate north along the northern coast of Lake Huron.
The State of Wabash was delineated with these borders:
- In the north by the 42nd parallel North from Lake Michigan to the border with Ohio
- In the east a line south along the Ohio border to the juncture of the Great Miami River and Ohio River
- In the south along the Ohio River to its juncture with the Wabash River
- In the west up the Wabash River to where it veers northeast, and then a line straight north to Lake Michigan.
The State of Wabash was settled mostly by Kentuckians, Viriginans, and Pensylvanians, much like Ohio. A few settlers from Ohio in fact moved further west to the new state. There was also a small influx of settlers from the British Appalachians.
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