that Liza would still be unwed by that point would be an argument on why not to marry her. After all, Fernando el Catolico called the four years-younger Mary an "old maid" and a "spinster" to Karl V. In all likelihood, Liza goes to several places that aren't France: second wife to Fernando el Catolico instead of Germaine de Foix (as a means of ensuring Henry VIII and Katherine of Aragon marry), third (or fourth, depending how you count) wife to Emperor Maximilian after Bianca Sforza died (he made a suit to marry Mary OTL), or first wife to Christian II of Denmark (and that's "iffy" before circa 1510). That she's (still) unmarried at 23yo is going to lead to speculation something's wrong with her.
List of Alternate Monarchs and Aristocratic Lineage II
- Thread starter FalconHonour
- Start date
ATL familiy of HRE Charles V, ancestor of Spanish Habsburgs, English Habsburgs and Scottish Habsburgs:
Charles V (1500-1558) Holy Roman Emperor, King of Spain, m. Isabella of Portugal (1503-1539)
1) Maria (1527-1598) m. Maximilian II (1527-1576) Holy Roman Emperor
2) Philip (1528-1603) King of Spain, m. a) Maria Manuela of Portugal (1527-1557), b) Maria of Portugal (1538-1577) [1]
3) Joanna (1529-1530)
4) Isabella (1534)
5) Ferdinand (1535-1573) Duke of Burgundy, m. a) Mary (1516-1558) Queen of England, b) Mary (1542-1594) Queen of Scots
6) Isabella (1537-1538)
[1] Children of Duarte, Duke of Guimarães, younger brother of John III. As John III dies without surviving issue he is succeeded by nephew.
[2] Son of Sigismund Augustus and Elizabeth of Austria
[3] Children of Edward II of Portugal and Anna of Austria.
[4] Posthumous son of Charles IX
Charles V (1500-1558) Holy Roman Emperor, King of Spain, m. Isabella of Portugal (1503-1539)
1) Maria (1527-1598) m. Maximilian II (1527-1576) Holy Roman Emperor
1) Anna (1549-1601) m. Edward II (1540-1596) King of Portugal [1]
2) Ferdinand II (1550-1606) Holy Roman Emperor, m. Maria Anna of Bavaria (1551-1608)
3) Elizabeth (1552-1589) m. Sigismund III Casimir (1545-1602) Grand Duke of Lithuania, King of Poland [2]
4) Rudolf (1553)
5) Mary (1555-1601) m. Henry IX of England (1555-1605)
6) Eleanor (1556-1618) m. Charles IX (1550-1574) King of France
7) Frederick (1558)
8) Ernest (1561-1610) Archduke of Tyrol, m. Anna of Austria-Tyrol (1585-1618)
9) Albert (1564-1567)
10) Matthias (1566-1607) Grand Master of Teutonic Order
2) Philip (1528-1603) King of Spain, m. a) Maria Manuela of Portugal (1527-1557), b) Maria of Portugal (1538-1577) [1]
1a) Isabella (1547)
2a) Charles (1550-1556)
3a) Catherine (1552)
4b) Charles (1560-1565)
5b) Isabella (1561-1562)
5b) Philip III (1564-1606) King of Spain, m. Anna of Portugal (1570-1633) [3]
6b) Joanna (1566-1598) m. Manuel II (1568-1615) King of Portugal [3]
7b) Maria (1567-1570)
8b) Catherine (1569-1630) m. James VI (1568-1616) King of Scotland
9b) Ferdinand (1572-1591)
3) Joanna (1529-1530)
4) Isabella (1534)
5) Ferdinand (1535-1573) Duke of Burgundy, m. a) Mary (1516-1558) Queen of England, b) Mary (1542-1594) Queen of Scots
1a) Henry IX (1555-1605) King of England, Duke of Burgundy, m. Mary of Austria (1555-1601)
2b) Mary (1565-1571)
3b) James VI (1568-1616) King of Scotland, m. Catherine of Spain (1569-1630)
4b) Charles (1570)
5b) Mary (1573-1615) m. Charles X (1574-1638) King of France [4]
6) Isabella (1537-1538)
[1] Children of Duarte, Duke of Guimarães, younger brother of John III. As John III dies without surviving issue he is succeeded by nephew.
[2] Son of Sigismund Augustus and Elizabeth of Austria
[3] Children of Edward II of Portugal and Anna of Austria.
[4] Posthumous son of Charles IX
For Charles V, yes, who was four years younger than Mary...and eight years younger than Elizabeth
Way too late for that… Elizabeth would end in Denmark or Vienna long before that.
Keeping the lands in the family.
She NEED to marry an Habsburg (unless she had to marry in Portugal for securing the inheritance).
Yes, Amalia would fit the bill. Anna of Cleves and Anna of Lorraine also could work
and neither was a real pregnancy
The elder son would get Spain and the younger England and Burgundy. That is the reason… The Spanish kingdoms were the most prestigious ones
May I ask why a German princess specifically?
The first one was a miscarriage aiui
The younger son gets Burgundy? What are the daughters getting then
Availability and politically utility (a German match would be useful for the Empire and Burgundy). I guess who Marguerite of France could also work, unless Charles was willing to marry either of his Portuguese’s nieces
I have my doubts… Mary was already over the age in which her closer female relations had their last kids when she married Philip
With two half-brothers? Money as dowry and ABSOLUTELY no lands.
"Imperatrix Anna" or, the ATL where Anne of Cleves is wife of Charles V instead of Henry VIII @isabella
Charles V m. Isabella of Portugal (a) Anne of Cleves (b)
a) same as IOTL
4b) Ferdinand of Burgundy b. 1540 m. Anna of Austria b. 1549
5b) Maximilian of the Netherlands b. 1542 m.
6b) Isabella b. 1544 m. Francis II of France b. 1544
7b) Anna b. 1546 became nun
8b) William b. 1548 m. Katherine I of England b. 1555 [1]
[1] Daughter of Mary I and Philip II
Charles V m. Isabella of Portugal (a) Anne of Cleves (b)
a) same as IOTL
4b) Ferdinand of Burgundy b. 1540 m. Anna of Austria b. 1549
5b) Maximilian of the Netherlands b. 1542 m.
6b) Isabella b. 1544 m. Francis II of France b. 1544
7b) Anna b. 1546 became nun
8b) William b. 1548 m. Katherine I of England b. 1555 [1]
[1] Daughter of Mary I and Philip II
VVD0D95
Banned
Edward, Earl of Warwick becomes King after the Richmond fire of 1497 kills the entirety of the house of Tudor.
Edward VI of England, lord of Ireland (b.1475) m
Maria of Aragon (b.1482) in 1497
Issue:
Prince Edward (b.1498: d.1501)
George, Prince of Wales (b.1499)
Princess Isabel (b.1502)
Miscarriage (1505)
Thomas, Duke of York (b.1507)
Princess Margaret (b.1510)
Miscsrriage (1512)
William, Duke of Clarence (b.1514)
@Kellan Sullivan @isabella @Tyler96 @pandizzy @FalconHonour @Tudorfan
Edward VI of England, lord of Ireland (b.1475) m
Maria of Aragon (b.1482) in 1497
Issue:
Prince Edward (b.1498: d.1501)
George, Prince of Wales (b.1499)
Princess Isabel (b.1502)
Miscarriage (1505)
Thomas, Duke of York (b.1507)
Princess Margaret (b.1510)
Miscsrriage (1512)
William, Duke of Clarence (b.1514)
@Kellan Sullivan @isabella @Tyler96 @pandizzy @FalconHonour @Tudorfan
classyjackie
Banned
One thing for sure is that Joe Kennedy got the ultimate last laugh in this timeline as well. Shunned by WASPS and Boston Brahmins and has a son as a President and granddaughter has a future Queen.
Renata of Lorraine (assuming she still exists ITTL) makes more sense
Maximilian would get Milan as Burgundy and Netherlands would go together
Well, that would depend from how much Charles would feel the need to secure the Portuguese alliance
Oh, yes, and you can be certain who he and Jack would keep a close relationship with Kick and her family. I am less sure about what would be the relationship between Kick and her other siblings as I suspect who Rose would never fully forgive her for her marriage
not impossible. All we need is for Karl/Wilhelm der Reiche to stick to the treaty of Venlo they agreed in 1542 and Henry VIII not to marry Anna (say he finds her previous betrothal to the duke of Lorraine problematic: the French ambassador did point out to him that he would, essentially, be marrying another man's wife if he wed her)...so say the French ambassador is a little bit more persuasive to get one of the Guise girls in or Henry finds out that Kitty Howard is pregnant, so he marries her instead rather than wait for Anna to arive.
@VVD0D95 I like it! The only things I might suggest is changing around the early birth dates. In OTL it took Charles and HM a while to start having kids (a good 4 years) and even María took a full 18 months from her wedding. I'd say Charles to 1627, James to 1629, "Anne" in 1630 (not sure if Charles would name his oldest daughter after his mother: after all, he didn't in OTL), miscarriage in 1632 and 1634, then the last three in 1636, 1638 and 1640. With room for a final kid in 1646 (like María had in OTL, the one that killed her).
VVD0D95
Banned
ahhh fair point so perhaps something like this then:
Charles I of England, Scotland and Ireland (b.1600) m Maria Anna of Spain (b.1606) in 1625
Issue:
Charles, Prince of Wales (b.1627)
James, Duke of York and Albany (b.1629)
Princess Mary (b.1630)
Miscsrriage (1632)
Miscsrriage (1634)
Prince Edward, Duke of Gloucester and Ross (b.1636)
Princess Anne (b.1638)
Princess Margaret (b.1640)
That sounds about right, with the option of a final kid in the early-mid 1640s (as María was only 34 in 1640).