Linguistic Shifte in Italy from Romance to Lombard

Why did not Italy experience a linguistic shift from Italian Romance dialects in favor of Germanic Lombard?

How could the Germanic Lombard language become the main language of Italy similar to what Turkish is for Anatolia, English for England, Slavic for the Balkan?

If Italy became mostly Lombard speaking how would Latin's role in Western Society be changed, if at all?

Could a portion of Italy become Lombard speaking while the rest stayed Latin? For example the Po Valley becoming Lombard speaking while the rest stays Romance speaking.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombards
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alboin

Theresite mentions a son of Alboin, while Wikipedia claims that Alboin's only issue was a daughter. Anyone who knows more?
 
Last edited:
Why did not Italy experience a linguistic shift from Italian Romance dialects in favor of Germanic Lombard?
For the same reason Normandy spoke French and Norman England spoke English. Mainly elite replacement couldn't compete long term against local demographics.

How could the Germanic Lombard language become the main language of Italy similar to what Turkish is for Anatolia, English for England, Slavic for the Balkan?
You need more low level Lombards and incentives for the local Romance peasantry to switch.
If Italy became mostly Lombard speaking how would Latin's role in Western Society be changed, if at all?
It would become even more associated with liturgy.

Could a portion of Italy become Lombard speaking while the rest stayed Latin? For example the Po Valley becoming Lombard speaking while the rest stays Romance speaking.
This is probably the best case scenario.
 
What kind of incentives?
It needs to be more advantageous for them to switch. OTL any low level Lombard trying to get by in a local village or town would need to know the language. ATL if there's enough Lombards then the markets can be set up preferentially speaking Lombard.
Bear in mind to that there's still enough intelligibility between Church Latin and the local Vulgar Latin (Romance) at this time that this gives an advantage for any church markets even if run by Lombard clerics, since they'd understand the locals more than vice versa.
 
A more gradual conquest of Romance-speaking areas might help because this would let the Lombards have a greater proportion of the population at first to spread their language.
 
Would Lombardic be considered a dialect of German or it's own language?

It would be considered Germanic it certainly wouldn't be a dialect of German. If I'm not mistaken the Lombards were Eastern Germanic, meaning their language was more closely related to Gothic or Burgundian than German.
 
A more gradual conquest of Romance-speaking areas might help because this would let the Lombards have a greater proportion of the population at first to spread their language.
A more gradual conquest may be so slow that the entities that hold Italy may get time for a counterstrike.
 
800px-West_germanic_languages_c_500.png

"Approximate extent of the West Germanic languages in the early 6th century"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Germanic_languages

I am not sure if this map only shows areas were West Germanic was the majority language, if it just shows significant presence or something else.
 
It would be considered Germanic it certainly wouldn't be a dialect of German. If I'm not mistaken the Lombards were Eastern Germanic, meaning their language was more closely related to Gothic or Burgundian than German.
They were western, as was Burgundian by the time it entered Eastern France and Rhone valley.
Why did not Italy experience a linguistic shift from Italian Romance dialects in favor of Germanic Lombard?

How could the Germanic Lombard language become the main language of Italy similar to what Turkish is for Anatolia, English for England, Slavic for the Balkan?

If Italy became mostly Lombard speaking how would Latin's role in Western Society be changed, if at all?

Could a portion of Italy become Lombard speaking while the rest stayed Latin? For example the Po Valley becoming Lombard speaking while the rest stays Romance speaking.
I think it didn't because it had no reason to, while it's possible for a relatively small minority to convert a bigger population linguistically I'm not sure how the Lombards have the means to do so.

I find hard that it would replace Latin, especially if the Lombards still convert to the local Christianity and the pressure was high enough.

To be honest, short of Lombard taking over all of the northern half of Italy, Latin would still be the predominant and literary language and Lombard would look more like English in terms of Romance loanwords than German.

I personally think the easiest or first region that could be linguistically Germanzed would be the Eastern Alps and Veneto, before you start touching the Po Valley.

View attachment 403581
"Approximate extent of the West Germanic languages in the early 6th century"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Germanic_languages

I am not sure if this map only shows areas were West Germanic was the majority language, if it just shows significant presence or something else.
It's not majority, if it was majority then we wouldn't be here talking about this in this thread.

I personally think it would be good to maintain Germanic presence in modern Slovenia and Illyricum, maybe no Justinian Reconquest and a lasting Ostrogothic kingdom with Lombards as some sort of Foedi or mercenaries in the Alps and Illyricum, this could lead to some Germanization of the Adige and border areas of Veneto and from there you could have further expansion in lowland Veneto and eventually some of the Po Valley.
 
ATL if there's enough Lombards then the markets can be set up preferentially speaking
What would the proportion of Lombard(plus other Germanics and non-Germanic but Germanophone) compared to Roman population(Romance-phone, Grecophone) would need to be to facilitate a lingustic shift? Would 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 50% or more be needed?
 
What would the proportion of Lombard(plus other Germanics and non-Germanic but Germanophone) compared to Roman population(Romance-phone, Grecophone) would need to be to facilitate a lingustic shift? Would 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 50% or more be needed?
Tbh I don't know. What are the known population differences (per class even) where language switch occurred?
 
Why did not Italy experience a linguistic shift from Italian Romance dialects in favor of Germanic Lombard?
For the same reason most of western Romania didn't : overhelming weight of romanisation, not only of provinces, but Barbarians as well.

How could the Germanic Lombard language become the main language of Italy similar to what Turkish is for Anatolia, English for England, Slavic for the Balkan?
Apart from having Italian being renamed Lombard and being classified as Germanic prior to scientific linguistic approach? You'd need a significantly ruined Italy to begin with, with most of post-imperial structures utterly collapsing to a point that Gothic Wars never achieved.

Could a portion of Italy become Lombard speaking while the rest stayed Latin? For example the Po Valley becoming Lombard speaking while the rest stays Romance speaking.
Depending on the definition of Italy, maybe : you could have with a strong Romance Italy (either Gothic or Byzantine, altough I think the former more likely) that would technically dominate Pannonia and parts of geographical Italy dominated by Lombards whom germanic speech would eventually dominate their polity.
In Italy proper, without utterly ruining the peninsula to heights never achieved IOTL, there's not a chance outside some valleys in the midst of nowhere.

Would Lombardic be considered a dialect of German or it's own language?
It depends a lot of its evolution : if we're talking about a Pannonian *Lombard, probably something relatively distinct, at least enough to butterfly away the IOTL definition of German.

What would the proportion of Lombard(plus other Germanics and non-Germanic but Germanophone) compared to Roman population(Romance-phone, Grecophone) would need to be to facilitate a lingustic shift? Would 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 50% or more be needed?
Tbh I don't know. What are the known population differences (per class even) where language switch occurred?

it's not so much about proportion (altough Lombards and Barbarians never really went beyond the 5% of the provincial populations and that's including the part of Romans that joined them after they were already romanized) as the British case does points : it's as well (if not much) about the survival of late imperial structures. And Italy was, for obvious reasons, the center of post-imperial Romanity even after butchered Byzantine reconquests

Germanic speeches were maintained in Frankish Germania on these lines and connections to Germanic speaking ensemble autonomous/independent from Frankish Gaul (Bavaria, Thuringia, Alemania, Saxony, etc.), and the linguistical border along the Rhine wasn't fixed before the Xth XIth century when political-cultural centers were.

On this regard, regions of Romania that really had a chance to be "delatinized" are regions that mostly were IOTL : Illyricum, Rhineland, Britain, Raetia, etc. Arguably, part of North Italy and North Gaul could be so more deeply, given right circumstances, but that's it IMO. The sheer social-cultural gravity of Roman civilization, exerced on Barbarians since centuries at this point, was simply too important.
 
Well because it's one of the parts of Italy that at least has some German-ish/Germanic speaking and the Adige allows for a faster language shifting while in the West you had to wait for the late middle ages and early modern era to have German make significant inroads in Romansch Grischun and Valais.
While I heard people claiming that Trent itself was once majority German speaking, I have not seen anything indicating that was the case just yet, but German was spoken a bit more with the border with German Tyrol being a bit South of the modern administrative border at the valley while today the valley up to Bozen has something like a Italian speaking majority.

In any case by virtue of the Adige, the Eastern Alps being more open and also Slovenia(if it's Germanic), you have more possibilites for a gradual shift.
 
Well because it's one of the parts of Italy that at least has some German-ish/Germanic speaking
IIRC, most of Longobardic cultural/language evidence (essentially toponymic) in Italy are roughly centered in modern Lombardia, northern Tuscia and Friul or am I mistaken?

EDIT ; map of Fare (roughly, military familial settlements)
Fara01.jpg


map of Arrimano/Arrimani (juridic title)
Fara02.jpg


map of "bard" root
Fara03.jpg
 
Last edited:
IIRC, most of Longobardic cultural/language evidence (essentially toponymic) in Italy are roughly centered in modern Lombardia, northern Tuscia and Friul or am I mistaken?

EDIT ; map of Fare (roughly, military familial settlements)
Fara01.jpg


map of Arrimano/Arrimani (juridic title)
Fara02.jpg


map of "bard" root
Fara03.jpg
Well I was talking about the Germanic enclaves that survived into the early modern late middle ages(today the remnants are Cimbric and Mocheno, outside South Tyrol), I think that "Lombard" becoming an analogous version of OTL Southern Austrobavarian and expanding into Veneto is the closest thing you can get to Lombardic Italy, I can't see enclaves of Lombardic surviving on the Po valley.
 
Top