Out of curiosity, I don't know the financial optics of the Dutch Corsican Company, but would it not be possible for Theodore to get credit from them in order to pay off the loan from the French and so shift the debt onto a third party that isn't liable to threaten Corsican sovereignty at a later date?

Well, this is a timeframe where companies were defintely not known for being less threatening to sovereign states' sovereignty than other states, especially Dutch companies. For a quick object lesson, Theodore could ask fellow island countries in the East Indies, but he probably knows that bit already.
Of course, the DCC is not the VOC. Which is also why they probably don't have15 million livres to loan offhand. I suspect their whole capital is less than that.
In the end, after all, France is going to be a relatively benign creditor: the debt serves her political interests, to which it may even consider losing money. OTOH, the Company has no real interest in political control whatsoever: it seeks profit and would happily destroy Corsica's economy and sovereignty is it's what's needed to repay the shareholders (if they can). Clearly, the debt is a still a shackle; it conditions Theodore's policy heavily both economically and (critically for France) in foreign policy.
But it is bearable, since it was the price of recognition; which also means, if the French start making seriously unreasonable demands, Theodore now has official ways to seek recourse politically (by seeking alliance with Britain, for example, though that would come at a price again). This was not available before, and the DCC could not have bought him that.
 
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no, found it on the kingdom of corsica wiki page. full credit to whoever made it.

I was actually trying to find the picture used on the title post to put here, but found that.
Oh wow ok I thought you made it cause it's pretty good even though I think I prefer the one from the first post
 
Also can someone give the full names of all of Theodore's nephews along with the corsicanized version because I totally forgot all of them except Matthias von drost/ don matteo/prince of Porto vecchio

You've got drost spot on.

Johann Friedrich von Neuhoff zu Rauschenberg is Prince of Morosaglia or Don Giovan.

Friedrich Wilhelm von Neuhoff zu Pungelscheid is Prince of Capraia or Don Federico.

Charles Philippe de Bellefeulac is Comte du Trévou in France and has only been to Corsica once so has no Corsican title or nickname.
 
How much of a derail is this for the Genoese? Might it allow them to make out wildly better or wildly worse in the coming events?
 
You've got drost spot on.

Johann Friedrich von Neuhoff zu Rauschenberg is Prince of Morosaglia or Don Giovan.

Friedrich Wilhelm von Neuhoff zu Pungelscheid is Prince of Capraia or Don Federico.

Charles Philippe de Bellefeulac is Comte du Trévou in France and has only been to Corsica once so has no Corsican title or nickname.
Thank-you dear friend I wish I was in some position of power in the kingdom of Corsica so I could bestow you a knighthood for your help but alas only carp rules in this kingdom
 
Thank-you dear friend I wish I was in some position of power in the kingdom of Corsica so I could bestow you a knighthood for your help but alas only carp rules in this kingdom

Something I’ve been curious about: is anyone actually living in Corsica following this TL? Because I feel like people there would probably be quite interested in this!
 

Isaac Beach

Banned
Well, this is a timeframe where companies were defintely not known for being less threatening to sovereign states' sovereignty than other states, especially Dutch companies. For a quick object lesson, Theodore could ask fellow island countries in the East Indies, but he probably knows that bit already.
Of course, the DCC is not the VOC. Which is also why they probably don't have15 million livres to loan offhand. I suspect their whole capital is less than that.
In the end, after all, France is going to be a relatively benign creditor: the debt serves her political interests, to which it may even consider losing money. OTOH, the Company has no real interest in political control whatsoever: it seeks profit and would happily destroy Corsica's economy and sovereignty is it's what's needed to repay the shareholders (if they can). Clearly, the debt is a still a shackle; it conditions Theodore's policy heavily both economically and (critically for France) in foreign policy.
But it is bearable, since it was the price of recognition; which also means, if the French start making seriously unreasonable demands, Theodore now has official ways to seek recourse politically (by seeking alliance with Britain, for example, though that would come at a price again). This was not available before, and the DCC could not have bought him that.

I am aware of how dangerous Dutch merchant companies are in this period, thanks; the object lesson is frankly a little condescending. But I would think that a company that has spent almost a decade funding Theodore's misadventures would be less threatening to Corsica's sovereignty than the nation that occupied them, and Theodore must have some awareness about France's designs on the island; while there is very much the possibility that the DCC could turn on them, it would be a waste of such a long term investment and I don't think taking on the Kingdom's debt would immediately lead to Dutch creditors storming in and uprooting olive groves and carpets.
However I will admit that I don't know the real value of livres in this period. I've looked it up and found it quite hard to parse, but 1 pound in 1736 (which is fairly close to the story) is ostensibly 235 USD (in 2015). The one converter I did find put the exchange rate of 15 million livres at 694,708 pounds (again, in 1736), which seems a bit low. But taking it at face value we can find that 15 million livres is about 163 million modern USD. So you're likely right, I can't imagine that the company has that sort of capital on hand.
(EDIT: and as an aside, if Theodore's main priority is to keep Corsica independent, then maybe being bankrupted by a private company is better than being annexed by the French. But then again I don't know Theodore's priorities)

And that's a fair assessment, but one wonders if that price might snowball over time. Will Corsica be able to make regular repayments and how punishing will they be? What's the interest? Will France take punitive actions against Corsica should they fail to make those repayments, including possible occupation and expropriation of key assets or settlements if and when they recover in economic and political strength, and if this happens can it ever be rolled back or will the French simply progressively eat the country's tax base until Corsica is annexed economically and then, eventually, politically? It's not like Corsica can run to Britain if any of these happens, because what does Britain care if France is being a bit harsh on an island that willingly accepted French debt? It's annexation by stealth.

That being said, I'm sure Carp has thought this over.
 
I was expecting Theodore to negotiate, quibble and drag his feet on the amount of the payment. Let's say, try and catch Bonifacio but trade it back to Genoa for a discount; or threaten to go to the British and give them a port.
If I am honest, it did seem a little bit out of character to give up so much so easily. Surely he would have easily taken Bonifacio and then bad a better standing in the treaty, or played some diplomatic games with Chauvelin.

Had Theodore been there, perhaps he would have. But Theodore wasn’t at Monaco, and negotiating by mail through proxies is not an easy thing to do. Corsica does not have a very deep bench of experienced diplomats, which is why the job was given to a chancellery secretary and a nobleman who can speak French.

Chauvelin’s approach to the negotiation was to give the Corsicans a shitty independence deal (the preliminary terms) and then tell them that if they just agreed to pay off the Genoese (and take a loan from France), he would make sure they got a much better deal. And the original deal was indeed shitty: it not only ceded Bonifacio and Capraia, but required the Corsicans to compensate the Genoese for properties seized during the Revolution - an unstated and potentially enormous figure, since it basically comprises all state land on the island as well as the personal property of every Genoese lord and landowner. I suspect it would amount to more than 15 million livres, but even if it’s less than that, it would be money that Theodore would owe to Genoa, not France. He would either have to become a debtor to Genoa - the government that’s been trying to kill him for the last 13 years and has absolutely no interest in Corsica’s success - or try to find private loans, which given his reputation and the limited nature of Corsica’s tax base is either going to be impossible or will entail usurious rates of interest.

The risk to the Corsicans would be that by refusing Chauvelin or stalling him out, Chauvelin would simply withdraw his “better” offer and France would throw its support behind the original shitty preliminary deal (or worse, the Genoese proposal of "reconciliation" without independence). They're not privy to Chauvelin's memorandums on how independence is the only viable solution to maintaining French influence. And while turning to Britain might seem like an attractive alternative, their withdrawal from the island after Aix-la-Chapelle suggested to the Corsicans that the British were not going to defend them, while at this exact time Rochford is saying “well hey, maybe we can solve this without independence at all!”

So put yourself in the shoes of Corsica’s negotiators. The French propose a bad deal and the Genoese are determined to make it worse (“actually we’d like Calvi and Capo Corso too…”). Then the French mediator turns to you privately and says “hey, I can make this deal a lot better, all you have to do is settle Genoa’s claims for a lump sum and we’ll loan the money to you at a much better rate than you could ever get from private lenders.” Meanwhile, Britain is spouting off some nonsense about returning to Genoese sovereignty. Then you get a message from Theodore telling you that it’s alright for you to cede Bonifacio so long as you keep Capraia, and that since he’s pretty much completely out of money it would really be best if you could not dawdle too much. You further suspect that at any moment the French could say “screw it” and just decide to invade again, and the last time that happened it did not go too well for the Corsicans. How long are you going to drag your feet before taking Chauvelin’s deal and signing on the dotted line?

Edit: also some of the stuff I read in this timeline is absolutely hilarious with some of my favorites being when the Dutch heard the French were coming and so sent a whole fleet of weapons to the corsicans,
That time the Greeks called the corsicans "poncho-wearing goats" and the corsicans in turn burned down their whole village,
And lastly that time an Austrian soldier chugged a bottle of ink cause he was too excited to start the plundering and drinking early

And to think, I didn’t even invent any of those! Thanks for sharing, I’m glad you are enjoying the TL so far. :)

Of course, the DCC is not the VOC. Which is also why they probably don't have15 million livres to loan offhand. I suspect their whole capital is less than that.
In the end, after all, France is going to be a relatively benign creditor: the debt serves her political interests, to which it may even consider losing money. OTOH, the Company has no real interest in political control whatsoever: it seeks profit and would happily destroy Corsica's economy and sovereignty is it's what's needed to repay the shareholders (if they can). Clearly, the debt is a still a shackle; it conditions Theodore's policy heavily both economically and (critically for France) in foreign policy.

Indeed, France lost money hand over fist in Corsica IOTL; the tax receipts didn’t even come close to covering the cost of administration, to say nothing of the 40 million livres paid to buy the island or the massive cost of the invasion. Nevertheless, the French considered it worthwhile for strategic reasons. ITTL, as long as Theodore is (or appears to be) their loyal client and fulfills their objectives - to wit, keeping Britain out and promoting French strategic/economic interests - they don’t actually care that much about the balance sheet. They just spent a billion livres on the WAS, 15 million livres is chump change. The loan is primarily useful as a means to control Theodore, and to provide a casus belli if he goes rogue.

Theodore is a party to the NCC agreement and is personally indebted to them; another ruler would be less likely to honor that agreement, and might just turn to France and say “could you help us get rid of these pesky Dutchmen?” Certainly French annexation would screw them over. So while the main objective of the NCC is certainly to make a profit, their greed is tempered by a need to maintain a political climate favorable to them. In the present circumstance that makes them pro-royalist (and specifically pro-Theodore) and anti-French, although they can't push the anti-French agenda too hard.

And you are correct that the NCC’s total operating capital is far less than 15 million livres. They’ve lost some investors since the early days (who decided to drop out during the syndicate’s inactivity in the WAS), so they’re a little bit short on cash right now. Their situation will improve once they actually get established and start exporting, but they definitely can’t help Theodore here.

Oh wow ok I thought you made it cause it's pretty good even though I think I prefer the one from the first post

The image in the first post of this thread is my own creation. It’s based on an actual coat of arms depicted on a map of Corsica published in 1737.

I’ve seen the one @Balerion posted and it’s pretty well done, although it lacks the “wild men” supporters and the Order of Redemption medal that mine has. My main complaint, though, is that I don’t think the Neuhoff arms are depicted accurately. The Neuhoff arms are usually described as a broken silver (or white) chain on a black field, and that example's chain is unbroken and gold (or yellow). Coats of arms are sometimes subject to interpretation and I have seen other sources where the chain is unbroken, but I've never seen a gold chain in the Neuhoff arms.

How much of a derail is this for the Genoese? Might it allow them to make out wildly better or wildly worse in the coming events?

It’s a mixed bag. IOTL, the Genoese managed to keep Finale, but their country was devastated by the warfare which followed the Revolution. Liguria was absolutely brutalized in 1747-48; thousands of Genoese citizens were slaughtered or starved to death. One observer reported that the towns of Liguria had been so thoroughly plundered by marauding armies that there were not even any shutters left on the windows or doors in the door frames. (The idea of Austrian soldiers literally carrying off the doors is rather hilarious to me; perhaps the implication is that they were scrapped for firewood). While the Austro-Sardinian occupation ITTL was not kind to them and squeezed a lot of wealth out of the country, Liguria avoided OTL’s devastation.

The loss of Finale and Corsica, however, is politically disastrous. Even if one might argue that losing Corsica is good for them in the long term, it’s hard to spin “losing literally half our state’s territory” as a win in the short term. The government has been severely discredited by these failures, as the people hold the government (and more generally, the nobility) to be solely responsible for taking them into the WAS in the first place. The republic has also lost a tremendous amount of international prestige, not just by losing territory but because they folded to the Austrians without a fight in the WAS (the Genoese revolution and the war that followed IOTL may have devastated the countryside, but at least it showed the Genoese were not pushovers and would fight for their country).

Overall, I would say the financial situation of the state is marginally better (but still quite bad), while the political and diplomatic situation of the state is much worse. In the long term, their economic situation is likely to be poorer than OTL because of the loss of Finale and Sardinian competition, although the effects of that may not be immediately apparent.
 
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Overall, I would say the financial situation of the state is marginally better (but still quite bad), while the political and diplomatic situation of the state is much worse. In the long term, their economic situation is likely to be poorer than OTL because of the loss of Finale and Sardinian competition, although the effects of that may not be immediately apparent.

The other side of the medal is how much having Finale will help Sardinia. Might they develop more of a naval presence earlier?
A minor deviation, but no Genoese revolution also means no Balilla as symbol for the Genoese defiant popular spirit, so national identity has a legend less to draw on for the risorgimento (assuming something like that happens at all) and of course the lyrics of the Italian anthem would be different like the name of Mussolini's youth militia (but of course both have been butterflied away).

Also again congratulations for the great job and sorry for not having commented in a long time.
 
The other side of the medal is how much having Finale will help Sardinia. Might they develop more of a naval presence earlier?

I mentioned something like this in an earlier post; I'm not a Sardinia expert but it seems plausible to me. I also wonder whether this might result in more attention being paid to Sardinia (the island) now that communications and trade between Piedmont and Sardinia are presumably easier. Certainly a Savoyard monarchy that's even marginally more maritime-oriented will consider Sardinia to be of more strategic value than it did historically. On the other hand, if such improvements don't materialize it might also be plausible for the Corsican Revolution to inspire a stronger or earlier Sardinian nationalist movement seeking to replicate Corsica's triumph (although against the Savoyard monarchy, I don't much like their chances).
 
I mentioned something like this in an earlier post; I'm not a Sardinia expert but it seems plausible to me. I also wonder whether this might result in more attention being paid to Sardinia (the island) now that communications and trade between Piedmont and Sardinia are presumably easier. Certainly a Savoyard monarchy that's even marginally more maritime-oriented will consider Sardinia to be of more strategic value than it did historically. On the other hand, if such improvements don't materialize it might also be plausible for the Corsican Revolution to inspire a stronger or earlier Sardinian nationalist movement seeking to replicate Corsica's triumph (although against the Savoyard monarchy, I don't much like their chances).

I think that Sardinian (islander) nationalism was still too underdeveloped at this stage, as the first revolt which showed any sign of a "national" identity happened in 1794 and even then it was more of a reaction to Savoyard ingratitude in not allowing the local elites in government even after they showed loyalty during the French invasion attempt the year before.

Also iotl the Piedmontese started a series of "modernising" reforms in Sardinia under Minister Bogino from 1759 onward iirc. This could start happening a bit before, but there will be pushback for sure and, with Corsica so close, things might go a bit differently than otl. Maybe Turin decides to play it safe and give some concessions to the local elites to preempt the appearance of a new Theodore?
Surely a Kingdom of Sardinia with less of a staunchely centralistic tradition might be interesting to observe. Sadly the chance for Sardinian independence and nationhood had imho already passed with the Aragonese victories there in the XIV and XV century, of not before at the time of Pisan influence.
 
if such improvements don't materialize it might also be plausible for the Corsican Revolution to inspire a stronger or earlier Sardinian nationalist movement seeking to replicate Corsica's triumph (although against the Savoyard monarchy, I don't much like their chances).
I mean hey here's an idea no one thought of what if when the sardinian revolution happens the corsicans offer to buy the island from Piedmont and create the united kingdom of Corsica et Sardinia (meanwhile by this point in time the savoyards control another kingdom title so they don't care about Sardinia) this idea is so implausible it just might be asb
 
I mean hey here's an idea no one thought of what if when the sardinian revolution happens the corsicans offer to buy the island from Piedmont and create the united kingdom of Corsica et Sardinia (meanwhile by this point in time the savoyards control another kingdom title so they don't care about Sardinia) this idea is so implausible it just might be asb


Even if it were plausible, Sardinia had about three times Corsica's population at the time and spoke a different language (Castillan or Catalan for the elite, Sardinian for the populace, apart frim the North were a dialect close to Corsican prevails). Attempts at anything more than a personal union would likely see Sardinia emerging as the center of power.
 
And then they conquer the Balearic islands and then Sicily then Malta then Cyprus and crete and soon Corsica rules the med /s
 
Even if it were plausible, Sardinia had about three times Corsica's population at the time and spoke a different language (Castillan or Catalan for the elite, Sardinian for the populace, apart frim the North were a dialect close to Corsican prevails). Attempts at anything more than a personal union would likely see Sardinia emerging as the center of power.

And doesn't the Corsican constitution demand that the King of Corsica lives in Corsica and only has Corsican nobles in order to prevent a personal union which sees Corsica neglected? Which like you said a union between Sardinia and Corsica would probably demand the king to live in Sardinia, Stuart dynasty style and so be unconstitutional. The Kings of Corsica prior to Theodore lived in mainland Italy, of course, and that was part of the problem.

It feels like any larger union or conquest would be against the stated interests of the corsican nobility and so would be quite unpopular.
 
Even if it were plausible, Sardinia had about three times Corsica's population at the time and spoke a different language (Castillan or Catalan for the elite, Sardinian for the populace, apart frim the North were a dialect close to Corsican prevails). Attempts at anything more than a personal union would likely see Sardinia emerging as the center of power.

Given said population in the north, might Corsica potentially grab part of what is today the province of Sassari should they ever end up the victors in a war where Sardinia is on an opposing side?
 
Given said population in the north, might Corsica potentially grab part of what is today the province of Sassari should they ever end up the victors in a war where Sardinia is on an opposing side?

Probably not worth the trouble. Corsica, not exactly a rich country that is protected by its being an island, would have to defend an extensive land border in order to keep a piece of another nearby island which is, in itself, not particularly wealthy. It's not impossible (See IOTL Northern Ireland and North Cyprus, both very different situations anyway) but I think that a sensible Corsican government would not, in general, be very happy about this.
As far as I know, local "dialect"* was not an important marker of political identity at any time.

*Well, in this case, they were indeed distinct languages; the Corso-Sardinian varieties are not really mutually intelligible with Sardinian ones, which belong to a different branch of Romance. However, the situation at the time was more or less diglossic and people tended not to indentify with the local linguistic variety beyond the local level, as opposed to more structured political allegiances.
 
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