Jutland Redux - A summer soltice shootout

[CaptainCalvert]

It's been a very good read so far. I'm not usually interested in prolonged naval battle descriptions, but this has been very engaging. I like the way you give the different perspectives as well as the bigger picture overviews.

Incidentally, I was inspired to try out ultimate admiral dreadnoughts by reading this, and have discovered that I have no talent for naval wafare whatsoever. Just as well my job is land-based.

 

[johnboy]

How is the fuel/stoker situation on the British ships? They've been tooling along at maximum bells for quite a while, and they still have to get home. Iron Duke has a range of about 8000 miles at 10 knots, but at max speed, coal consumption goes up immensely. The Bellerophons have about 2000 miles less range.

German stokers will also be in rough shape, but they are a lot closer to home.

It's still quite comfortable. The range from Scapa Flow to The Jade minefields is less than 500 nautical miles, from Rosyth even less. Even at maximum speed, which consumes coal near 3 times as quickly, the dreadnoughts have comfortable range.

I think we can be sure that when the dust settles Jellicoe is going to be raising hell in London about the quality (or lack there of) of the shells being provided to the fleet. He'll rightly claim that the Germans would have lost more ships if the shells were reliable.

Qustion is, how would he know?

Wasn't it German boasting to the Swiss Ambassdor that alerted the RN to the probrlsm after Dogger Bank?

I guess in answer to these, the British would not definitively know, but they may well suspect, given these events and those of Dogger Bank. There will be an update specifically on this at a later stage. By way of background, in the wake of the Crimean War, all artillery procurement had been moved under the War Office. This left the R.N with little control over its own weapons. I certainly delayed the transition to breech-loading guns into the Navy. The main manufacturers pre war were uninterested in shell development, in fact they actively hindered the testing of existing shells, not wishing to change the status quo. After Jutland, it was discovered that the testing methodology was poor, and shells were often issued to the fleet even though their proof firings had failed. The later was not just before the war in 1914. All of this was with the shells being tested only at normal impacts 90 degree impacts. As early as 1910-11, this problem was noted. Jellicoe, then Director of Naval Ordnance, called for the production of shells that could penetrate at higher obliquity, but he was soon transferred back to sea duty and his successors did not follow up, leaving him with inadequate shells when he took over Grand Fleet.

It's very likely Jellicoe either knows or suspects. One must also remeber, that the change of getting new changes through in regards shell manufacture would have been well nigh impossible during the shell crisis of 1915, where Kitchener almost fell from the scandle of severe shell shortages.

 

[johnboy]

I just made a list of german casualties so, both in terms of men and ships (feel free to correct it of course). So far, the HSF has lost:

-BC: Seydlitz, Lutzow, Von der Tann
-B: Kaiserin
-PB: Hessen, Hannover, Preussen, Schleswig-Holstein, Schlesien, Pommern, Deutschland
-CL: Wiesbaden, Regensburg
-Torpedo Boats: G197, G101, G102, B110, B111, V44, G87, S49, B 98, V27, V28, S35, V30, S52 + 6 others unnamed vessels.

-There was also the mention of one CL (Hamburg) and 5 unnamed TBs being crippled and thus likely to be sunk later or having at least suffered significant human losses.

In total the Germans have lost a minimum of 11630 men killed or missing (some captured) in less than 7 hours, more than 4 times what they suffered OTL. And the day isn't over yet...
Even with heavy RN losses, this battle will immediately appear as a resounding strategic success for the British. And if the night favours them, they might be bold enough to qualify it as a tactical one too. Long story short, the Germans have lost, now it is only about limiting the extent of an already gruesome butcher bill.

There is no question that it is an R.N victory. That is not so say that the German's did not inflict very severe casualties(they did). The question then becomes, who can afford such casualties the most. Sadly for the Germans, they cannot accept more losses or even a parity of losses with the British. They have less ships and less trained sailors. At this point in time, the Royal navy still has 24 pre dreadnoughts in commission they could drain the crews from, not to mention any number of armoured crusiers.

Of course, the Germans invented the concept of "the big lie". North Korea perfected it in perhaps the most outrageous claim ever, when they claimed to have captured 150,000 U.S troops AND CIVILIANS in the Korean war.

 

[Trevayne]

How is the fuel/stoker situation on the British ships? They've been tooling along at maximum bells for quite a while, and they still have to get home. Iron Duke has a range of about 8000 miles at 10 knots, but at max speed, coal consumption goes up immensely. The Bellerophons have about 2000 miles less range.

German stokers will also be in rough shape, but they are a lot closer to home.

It's still quite comfortable. The range from Scapa Flow to The Jade minefields is less than 500 nautical miles, from Rosyth even less. Even at maximum speed, which consumes coal near 3 times as quickly, the dreadnoughts have comfortable range.

I agree the dreadnoughts aren't going to have any problems, but I suspect some of the destroyers might. IIRC the L class had a range of 1700 miles at 15 knots and I expect they have spent considerable time at higher speeds.

 

[Driftless]

(snip)

Jellicoe, then Director of Naval Ordnance, called for the production of shells that could penetrate at higher obliquity, but he was soon transferred back to sea duty and his successors did not follow up, leaving him with inadequate shells when he took over Grand Fleet.

It's very likely Jellicoe either knows or suspects. One must also remeber, that the change of getting new changes through in regards shell manufacture would have been well nigh impossible during the shell crisis of 1915, where Kitchener almost fell from the scandle of severe shell shortages.

This universe's Jellicoe should have significant political and operational clout after the battle, I'd guess. More than he did OTL. This Jellicoe will look to the public eye as more Nelsonian, rather than as a cautious Katie. If he barks about the ammunition, I'd guess there would be more pressure to evaluate the problem and actually do something sooner.

 

[johnboy]

Question, under these circumstances, how can there be an observed hit that produces no results? The only examples that I can think of are against Kaiserin and any other cripples where the range reached point blank. Firing at over 10 km, presumably one sees shell splashes from misses and explosions from functioning shells that hit. But what indication is there from a shell that hits and doesn't explodes that is visible from more than 10 km?

The only thing that I can think of would be a mast or funnel falling without an explosion. A hole in the hull or superstructure just would not be visible without an explosion. We know that the British shells have been unreliable because we have been told. Jellicoe doesn't have that advantage, although he may be suspicious.

What he could do is try to confirm his suspicions, probably by taking an old pre-dreadnought and expending it as a test target to verify if the Grand Fleets shells are trustworthy. After this battle, he can certainly afford to lose a pre-dreadnought from his force and the crew could be reassigned to more useful ships.

You can count the shell splashes from a salvo or broadside. You fire say 6 guns, see 4 splashes, one red glow from a hit and the shell bursting and nothing else. What happened to shell number 6?

Shell splashes are counted by the spotters, but, of course at longer ranges, it's hard not to think you may just have missed shells landing, especially "overs" that pass beyond the ship and go into the sea. Partial bursts or hits on the armour that fail to penetrate could be observed in some cases, perhaps. When the data is all put together, a pattern will likely emerge, but it will take time.

 

[johnboy]

IIRC Jellicoe was aware of the (lack of) quality of British shells as early as 1910.

This is very true.

 

[johnboy]

Yep, it is one of the really big scandals of WW1 where the RN is concerned that is often overlooked. Had the RN been able to sort out their shells before WW1 then it massively changes the course of the war at sea. For one the Battlecruisers do better at Dogger Bank (despite everything else) that possibly prevents the suicidal magazine practices that makes the Battlecruisers not blow up.

Yes, it is in many ways a repetition of the struggles the USN had with the torpedoes in WW2. Sadly, in both cases, the enemies they fought trying to fix the problem were entirely domestic.

I cannot begin to imagine anybody being able to consistently and accurately do that for hours at a time in the stress, confusion and adrenaline of battle.

A tough job to be sure, with a great requirement for accuracy. I broke my ankle before cricket season one year, so was invited to score for the A Grade side. You would be amazed just how anal some of the old blokes that did the scoring were in regards accuracy.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

There is no question that it is an R.N victory. That is not so say that the German's did not inflict very severe casualties(they did). The question then becomes, who can afford such casualties the most. Sadly for the Germans, they cannot accept more losses or even a parity of losses with the British. They have less ships and less trained sailors. At this point in time, the Royal navy still has 24 pre dreadnoughts in commission they could drain the crews from, not to mention any number of armoured crusiers.

The RN in 1916 could match the Germans ship for ship lost and at the end of the battle the German navy would cease to exist and the Royal Navy would still be the largest in the world.

 

[johnboy]

It's been a very good read so far. I'm not usually interested in prolonged naval battle descriptions, but this has been very engaging. I like the way you give the different perspectives as well as the bigger picture overviews.

Incidentally, I was inspired to try out ultimate admiral dreadnoughts by reading this, and have discovered that I have no talent for naval wafare whatsoever. Just as well my job is land-based.

Thanks for that.

I agree the dreadnoughts aren't going to have any problems, but I suspect some of the destroyers might. IIRC the L class had a range of 1700 miles at 15 knots and I expect they have spent considerable time at higher speeds.

This is true, however, the Grand Fleet never exceeded 20.8 knots and spent much of their time at 16.8. There were high speed maneuverings during the clash of the light forces. It's Beatty's destroyers that will be most pushed in terms of consumption.

This universe's Jellicoe should have significant political and operational clout after the battle, I'd guess. More than he did OTL. This Jellicoe will look to the public eye as more Nelsonian than a cautious Katie. If he barks about the ammunition, I'd guess there would be more pressure to evaluate the problem and actually do something sooner.

This is true, and OTL it was Jellicoe that led the way in terms of the investigation that led to "Greenboys". This May now happen earlier, as he will have greater influence than OTL, when he had to wait until he was 1st Sea Lord.

 

[johnboy]

2309, 22 June 1916, SMS Bayern, North Sea

Scheer watched from the bridge as the signal was given to partially light the ship. The green and red of port and starboard markers glowed faintly, indicating the start of the swept channel, some 500 meters further on the first and only faint blue light of he only cardinal mark just visible. To port the old gunboat Panther, the guard-ship for the channel, was visible in the gloom. Bayern had dropped to 12 knots half an hour ago, now she slowed still further, turning and preparing to follow the sperrbrecher Taumien into the swept channel. Bayern had taken the lead position, the remainder of the High Seas Fleet strung out behind her, the last of which, the limping Moltke, now closing in on the rear of his formation.

He had left with 24 heavy ships. Hipper had left with five more. He was returning with only 20. That would require answering many questions. However, now was not the time to answer them. They would not be back in Wilhelmshaven until 0700 at the earliest. He stepped away from the bridge and headed to his sea cabin. He may as get what rest he could. Sleep did not come easily.

 

[johnboy]

2315 22 June 1916, HMS Emperor of India, North Sea

The small convoy continued to move on, the scout cruiser Blonde leading the crippled dreadnought, making her best speed, in this case a miserable 9 knots, two destroyers, Michael and Mons on her flanks. Captain Charles Royds knew full well it was going to be a real struggle to get the crippled ship across the North Sea. The list of Emperor of India had been reduced from 12 degrees to 2 degrees by counter-flooding, a necessary, but still a process by which even more water was let into the hull of the battered ship. She now had over 3,000 tons of water aboard and, although all fires had now been extinguished, flooding had still not been completely contained. The ship was sluggish on the helm and wanting to wander to starboard, exactly the opposite direction she needed to go in.

It was 315 nautical miles to Rosyth, a day and a half's travel at her current speed. Royds never had any thought of returning her to Scapa Flow, his only concern to get her to the nearest naval base before the damage his battered ship had suffered overwhelmed her.

 

[Trevayne]

If the Emperor of India sinks, the die-hard German proponents will try to claim victory because the British lost two dreadnought battleships to their one. They will still be wrong, but since when has that ever stopped a die-hard proponent?

 

[steamboy]

If the Emperor of India sinks, the die-hard German proponents will try to claim victory because the British lost two dreadnought battleships to their one. They will still be wrong, but since when has that ever stopped a die-hard proponent?

I'd say the Emperor of India is basically acting as TTL's Malrborough who was also listing badly due to a torpedo hit and had to be counter floodeded etc.

 

[johnboy]

Extract from "Great Sea Battles", William Koening, Abracadabra Press, 1979

The action of 22 June 1916, later known as the Battle of Jutland or the Solstice Shootout, was the defining naval battle of World War 1. It was to set the tone for the struggle for supremacy at sea for the remainder of the conflict, marking a change in tactics for not only the Imperial German Navy, but the Royal Navy as well. There were sober lessons to be learned from both sides. Both sides had made crucial mistakes, especially the inclusion of the "five minute ships" in the German line. In both navies, policies were shaped. In the Royal Navy, gunnery and shell manufacture was to be looked at, the Renown Class, Courageous Class and Admiral Class designs affected. In Germany, what was previously been a manpower shortage was to become a crisis. Despite claims to the contrary, they were aware that they had come off second best in the battle. This effected the offensive spirit of the senior admirals, but also the decision to pivot toward submarine warfare, always the traditional refuge of an outnumbered navy. This was to result in the cancellation of 5 battleships or battle-cruisers and 6 light cruisers, all being scrapped on the slip. In general terms, the actions came down to three sections. The initial engagement and the run North, essentially an action between the battle-cruisers on either side until the arrival of 5th Battle Squadron. Then Scheer's retreat under fire from Jellicoe. Finally, the action after Scheer committed his light forces at 2035, exactly 90 minutes before sunset.

Losses were heavy on both sides, by the time the High Seas Fleet finally found refuge in the minefields guarding the Jade. They consisted of:
Pre battle:
High Seas Fleet: nil
Grand Fleet: PD Abermarle

Initial engagement and run to the North
High Seas Fleet: Torpedo Boats: G197, G101, G102, B110, B111, V44, G87, S49, B 98
Grand Fleet: BC Indefatigable, New Zealand, Princess Royal, AC Defense, CL Champion, DD Lizard

Jellicoe's appearance to attack of German light forces:
High Seas Fleet: BC Seydlitz, Lutzow, Von der Tann, PB Hessen, Hannover, Schleswig-Holstein, CL Wiesbaden, Torpedo Boats V27, V28, S35, V30, S52
Grand Fleet: PB Hindustan, AC Donegal, CL Fearless, DD Ariel, Nomad

During the attack of Scheer's light forces and the subsequent retreat to the Jade:
High Seas Fleet: BB Kaiserin, PD Schlesien, Preussen, Deutschland, Pommern, CL Regensburg, CL Hamburg, Torpedo Boats V170, G197, V73, G88, V74, V6, V1, V3, S20, S24
Grand Fleet: BB Vanguard, AC Hampshire, CL Castor, DD Morning Star, DD Owl

In all, losses so far consisted of:
High Seas Fleet: BB Kaiserin, BC Seydlitz, Lutzow, Von der Tann, PB Hessen, Hannover, Schleswig-Holstein, Schlesien, Preussen, Deutschland, Pommern, CL Wiesbaden, Regensburg, Hamburg, Torpedo Boats: G197, G101, G102, B110, B111, V44, G87, S49, B 98, V27, V28, S35, V30, S52, V170, G197, V73, G88, V74, V6, V1, V3, S20, S24
Grand Fleet: BB Vanguard, BC Indefatigable, New Zealand, Princess Royal, PD Abermarle, Hindustan, AC Defense, Donegal, Hampshire, CL Champion, Fearless, Castor, DD Lizard, Morning Star, Owl, Ariel, Nomad

In all, a battleship, three battlecruisers, seven pre dreadnoughts, three light cruisers and 24 torpedo boats for the High Seas Fleet, 37 ships in all, a fleet in and of itself. For the Grand Fleet, a battleship, three battle-cruisers, two pre dreadnoughts, three armoured cruisers, three light cruisers and five destroyers, or 17 ships. Of course, so many more ships had suffered damage to varying degrees. Nor were these the only sinkings. Both sides were yet to lose another ship each.

 

[naraic]

24 torpedo boats to 3 destroyers. That says something on its own doesn't it.

 

[johnboy]

0455 23 June 1916, SMS S15, North Sea

Kapitänleutnant Georg von Zitzewitz watched with satisfaction as the sun rose on a new day. His crippled ship, restricted to 11 knots due to engine damage, had somehow survived the night. At one stage immobile, his crew had worked hard to restore power to the small ship and she had gradually made her way back. At one stage he had passed so close to two British destroyers that he loomed out of the darkness and sea mist that he was almost within spitting distance.

When challenged by signal lamp, he had actually grabbed a loud-hailer himself, using his mother's tongue to declare "her signal gear is all shot up, old chap," turning North and following the two British ships for a short time before "allowing S15 to drop back into the darkness and mist.

His ships had passed three destroyers and the gunboat Panther, all of whom were searching for survivors from ships sunk in the last hours of the battle. When S15 tied up at Wilhelmshaven at 1428, she was the last ship to return from the High Seas Fleet.
S15

 

[johnboy]

0616, 23 June 1916, SMS Panther, North Sea

The gunboat Panther was a famous ship in her own way. Laid down in 1900, she had been all over the world, the Far East, South America, Africa. She had participated in the naval blockade of Venezuela, was the prime mover in the "Panther affair" in Brazil and had almost started a World War three years earlier as a central player in the Agadir crisis. It had been an eventual career. As her sisters had all been sunk in the early days of the war, she survived as a guard ship on the Jade. Capable of only 12-13 knots, she was now assisting in the work of recovering survivors. So far, she had found only one man alive.

However, much as the Germans had stationed submarines around British bases prior to the 22 June operation, the British had also positioned submarines near the Jade and also at Cuxhaven. Lieutenant Timothy French's E-21 watched Panther increase speed to 10 knots. He waited until he had almost a perfect 90 degree angle on the bow. Only one of the two torpedoes fired hit Panther, but that was more than enough. She was the last German casualty of the engagement.
SMS Panther

 

[johnboy]

I'd say the Emperor of India is basically acting as TTL's Malrborough who was also listing badly due to a torpedo hit and had to be counter floodeded etc.

Very similar I guess, yes.

24 torpedo boats to 3 destroyers. That says something on its own doesn't it.

Overall, five destroyers. It does, it's partly a reflection of bigger, more powerful ship, but also of numbers and the fact that ships that were disabled were unable to be supported by the German main battle line.

 

[CaptainCalvert]

There's also the Torpedo Boats against Topedo Boat Destroyers aspect to consider. The destroyers should come out best overall unless the designers had done something very wrong.