Italian dominated Holy Roman Empire, whats it look like and can it revive a legitimate Roman state.

Deleted member 92195

Thus lies my problem. It was not a matter of there being a will, or the ability, but of the situation being favorable to such a project. Let us take a good equivalent to your trifecta of excellent Emperors; the Ottomans between 1451 and 1566. They did grow exceptionally, but they were on the cusp of growth, their starting position strong and with plenty of conquerable territory in every direction; they had no real internal threats either, better technology and a more cohesive distance/communication between their core territories, especially at the start (but even at the tail end: losing Algeri or parts of Persia didn't have a major impact).




Unless you add more exceptional individuals and manage to prevent multiple children, the situation you outlined amounts to:

- Germany who is both big and strong/united enough (even if by sole dislike of the Emperor), ripe for rebellion. It will be the first to go.
- Italy is cowed and loyal enough, especially if the Capital is brought back to Rome. Not too much trouble there (though the urban middle class will not be overjoyed). Some threat may come from Africa.
- Latin Empire: it's in huge need of reorganization, probably dislikes the 'frankish pretenders', and their élites will Be happy to offer the Imperial Crown to any Orthodox ruler - Bulgarian, Georgian, Serbian, even Russian, you name it - so long as they kick out the occupiers. An hotbed of trouble and a net drain.
- Jerusalem (+Egypt): even if wank-Frederic wipes the floor with Saladin, there will be some attempt at Jihad (Saladin and Egypt merely being the difference between minor and major challenges). And the Mongols are coming, to test the strength of HRE-Outremer resilience.

Now, any new Emperor would be horribly hard-pressed to keep all of this together - I think fhe first challenge would come from the Latin Empire, only to be followed by unrest in Germany and the arrival of the Mongols from two different ways.
I'm also somewhat skeptic strong emphasis of the Roman-ness would prevent revolts - they'd change the flashpoint and the wording used, but not the underlying causes.

That is the reason why all this did not happen. This scenario is within the realm of possibility but the chance of it happening was really low. (I would like to know it’s mathematical probability) Then again the chances of Napoleon becoming Emperor were impossible without the French Revolution.

In relation to its future challenges. Wow:eek: but awesome. I thought the challenge of getting it where the scenario is, was difficult. Those are equally as ‘explosive’, I’ll look into this.
 
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While normally the population of Germany would make this not likely, what If at some point the Holy Roman Empire takes control of the entirety of Italy. After this at some point the Renaissance or something similer occurs boosts the economic power of Italy.
From charts I have seen from this period while north Italy is not likely to dominate the HRE, the Italian peninsula as a whole had a population comparable, if not larger then the German population of the HRE and a larger economy as well.?[/QUOTE]

Okay there is a serious problem the areas known as the Two Sicilies were basically under either Byzantine control or the later on the Normans and eventually Spanish, Outside of the Hohenstauffens, one power would have to rise in Italy to somehow take it in the first place.

So my question is what does a Italian dominated Holy roman empire look like, what is it likely to do diplomatically and expansion wise and finally if a Protestant reformation still occurs how does that look with Italy added to the mix as a more dedicated participant does Italy save Catholicism or will the rebellion expand and take on a more anti Italian role, will the southern German states stay with Italy and if the HRE eventually fractures, with less Germans in the HRE which would expand Italian control more, is there any potential for the HRE to serve as a basis for reviving a legitimate roman state by unifying a Italian dominated HRE down the roud?

First Italy might not entirely be dedicated to fighting Protestantism except to keep the Pope, although, on the other hand, an Italian state that goes protestant could see it as good chance to force the Pope to heel, assuming the reformation still happens. I doubt the South German states would go join Italy. However, the bold is almost impossible.

Aside from the Byzantine Empire none of the alleged successors could ever be seen as Roman because they did not keep the Roman style of politics dominated by military service. A united Italy in the HRE would be something else entirely than a Roman state.
 

Deleted member 92195

Thus lies my problem. It was not a matter of there being a will, or the ability, but of the situation being favorable to such a project. Let us take a good equivalent to your trifecta of excellent Emperors; the Ottomans between 1451 and 1566. They did grow exceptionally, but they were on the cusp of growth, their starting position strong and with plenty of conquerable territory in every direction; they had no real internal threats either, better technology and a more cohesive distance/communication between their core territories, especially at the start (but even at the tail end: losing Algeri or parts of Persia didn't have a major impact).

Unless you add more exceptional individuals and manage to prevent multiple children, the situation you outlined amounts to:

- Germany who is both big and strong/united enough (even if by sole dislike of the Emperor), ripe for rebellion. It will be the first to go.
- Italy is cowed and loyal enough, especially if the Capital is brought back to Rome. Not too much trouble there (though the urban middle class will not be overjoyed). Some threat may come from Africa.
- Latin Empire: it's in huge need of reorganization, probably dislikes the 'frankish pretenders', and their élites will Be happy to offer the Imperial Crown to any Orthodox ruler - Bulgarian, Georgian, Serbian, even Russian, you name it - so long as they kick out the occupiers. An hotbed of trouble and a net drain.
- Jerusalem (+Egypt): even if wank-Frederic wipes the floor with Saladin, there will be some attempt at Jihad (Saladin and Egypt merely being the difference between minor and major challenges). And the Mongols are coming, to test the strength of HRE-Outremer resilience.

Now, any new Emperor would be horribly hard-pressed to keep all of this together - I think fhe first challenge would come from the Latin Empire, only to be followed by unrest in Germany and the arrival of the Mongols from two different ways.
I'm also somewhat skeptic strong emphasis of the Roman-ness would prevent revolts - they'd change the flashpoint and the wording used, but not the underlying causes.

I can understand and see why this empire will eventually collapse. When an individual attains real power, someone will always want to take it from you or part of it at least. Post 1233 it’s all about solving what problems Frederick can, I understand he is not going to prevent peasant uprisings all together. That’s impossible because of the time period he’s living in. I read that the causes of most peasant uprisings are:
  • Tax resistance
  • Social inequality
  • Religious war
  • National liberation
  • Resistance against serfdom
  • Redistribution of land
  • External factors such as plague and famine
The best solution is to militarily squash them. In conclusion, it is going to be a military balancing act between Revolts in Germany, Jihad in Jerusalem and then the Mongols. However, with a centralised ‘Italy’ Frederick will have a much larger army normally seen by a Holy Roman Emperor.

The Latin Empire is the problem which requires solving first and foremost but actually, it can be done with relative ease. Because Frederick is the King of Italy, Sicily and Rome, this gives him absolute veto power of the Empire’s subdivisions, making the Latin empire administration power useless. I read this:

“The empire was formed and administered on Western European feudal principles, incorporating some elements of the Byzantine bureaucracy. The emperor was assisted by a council, composed of the various barons, the Venetian podestà and his six-member council. This council had a major voice in the governance of the realm, especially in periods of regency, when the Regent (moderator imperii) was dependent on their consent to rule. The podesta, likewise, was an extremely influential member, being practically independent of the emperor. He exercised authority over the Venetian quarters of Constantinople and Pera and the Venetian dominions within the empire, assisted by a separate set of officials. His role was more that of an ambassador and vicegerent of Venice than a vassal to the empire.”

The solution is to basically ‘outcast’ everyone and consolidate power through legislation.

The only real possible to solution to quashing ‘Frankish pretenders’ and the Latin Empire aristocracy offering the crown to prince candidates is to incorporate the Latin empire into the Holy Roman Empire. Thus officially disbanding the Latin Empire, however, I don’t know if this would create a new claim on this new state, just because it’s got the word ‘Latin’ in it, that is legal, legislative, supreme court territory.
Your mention of the threat from African does not go unnoticed. Although militarily speaking even I would advise against this action because Frederick risks military capitulation between German revolts, Jerusalem Jihad and the Mongols. Frederick’s Norman grandfather, Rodger II actually became the king of Africa. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Africa
 

Deleted member 92195

Aside from the Byzantine Empire none of the alleged successors could ever be seen as Roman because they did not keep the Roman style of politics dominated by military service. A united Italy in the HRE would be something else entirely than a Roman state.

That is good to know and very intriguing. They were claiming to be successors of Rome but became something else entirely and most important of all, they actually became 'emperors'. Awesome.

Edit: Although I must admit it will have a lot of claims to the successor of Rome. - https://brilliantmaps.com/third-rome/

I don't think any state would truly be able to recreate the original Rome. For example, if the Roman Empire were to survive until modern today, it would not be considered to be the original Roman Empire either, because it would have changed so much in the process. But the closest replica of it you can get is by inheriting the majority of its characteristics
  • Roman Catholic church - vassalizing the Pope only gives more legitimacy (the only remains of the Western Roman Empire)
  • Imposing Imperial authority, incorporating and centralising the 'Italian' geographical peninsula (Centre of Rome) - Once the Italian Renaissance from the 14th to 17th centuries spreads from Roman culture to modern era Europe. All of Europe will acknowledge it.
  • Holy Roman Empire (see previous posts)
 
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If I traced things right, to the extent that the French claim on Milan, their theoretical heirs should have been the Dukes of Lorraine. If the heirs of Rene of Anjou manage to hold on to Naples and later inherit Milan, they, perhaps with a butterfly net, have an outside chance of doing this.
 
If I traced things right, to the extent that the French claim on Milan, their theoretical heirs should have been the Dukes of Lorraine. If the heirs of Rene of Anjou manage to hold on to Naples and later inherit Milan, they, perhaps with a butterfly net, have an outside chance of doing this.
Why the Dukes of Lorraine? I think you have made some mistakes as that claim came from Valentina Visconti, Duchess of Orleans and would eventually pass to the Dukes of Savoy not the Dukes of Lorraine (if you thinked who Claude, daughter of Henry II of inherited it and transmitted it to her descendants you have forgotten who the line of her niece Catalina, Duchess of Savoy is higher)...
 
The legitimate Roman Empire claim for the West is very interesting.

The East never considered the West to be legitimate. Even though all the Invaders(mostly of Germanic origin) implemented Latin, associated themselves with Romans and Latin, assimilated into the Roman population base and took the Civilizational aspects of the Romans(The Carolingians, Germans and the Visigoths) the East has never considered them as the legitimate Roman claimants.

This is actually kind of strange. I suspect that the similar thing could happen if the WRE succeeded and assimilated the invaders without itself collapsing, and had a Germanic influence in its later years.

The East-West dynamics of the Roman Empires is actually very interesting.
 
Why the Dukes of Lorraine? I think you have made some mistakes as that claim came from Valentina Visconti, Duchess of Orleans and would eventually pass to the Dukes of Savoy not the Dukes of Lorraine (if you thinked who Claude, daughter of Henry II of inherited it and transmitted it to her descendants you have forgotten who the line of her niece Catalina, Duchess of Savoy is higher)...
That's probably what I did. Why is her claim higher?
 
The legitimate Roman Empire claim for the West is very interesting.

The East never considered the West to be legitimate. Even though all the Invaders(mostly of Germanic origin) implemented Latin, associated themselves with Romans and Latin, assimilated into the Roman population base and took the Civilizational aspects of the Romans(The Carolingians, Germans and the Visigoths) the East has never considered them as the legitimate Roman claimants.

This is actually kind of strange. I suspect that the similar thing could happen if the WRE succeeded and assimilated the invaders without itself collapsing, and had a Germanic influence in its later years.

The East-West dynamics of the Roman Empires is actually very interesting.

Byzantium did recognize the Imperial claims of the Empire of Charlemagne and later when the Empire was restored. This is evident by Byzantine recognition and the intermarriages between the two Imperial families in the 9th and 10th century...
 
That's probably what I did. Why is her claim higher?
Because Catalina of Spain, Duchess of Savoy is the heiress of Elisabeth/Isabella of France, Queen of Spain who was Claude’s elder sister.

At the death of Henry III of France (the last surviving son of Henry II so the last French heir of that title) the general heir(ess) of Valentina Visconti was Isabella Clara Eugenia of Spain (elder daughter of Henry II’s eldest daughter Elisabeth or Isabella). After her childless death the claim on Milan was inherited by her nephew (son of her younger sister Catalina) Victor Amadeus I of Savoy.
Claude was only the second daughter of Henry II so her heirs had an inferior claim on the inheritance of Valentina Visconti than the heirs of Elisabeth.
 
Because Catalina of Spain, Duchess of Savoy is the heiress of Elisabeth/Isabella of France, Queen of Spain who was Claude’s elder sister.

At the death of Henry III of France (the last surviving son of Henry II so the last French heir of that title) the general heir(ess) of Valentina Visconti was Isabella Clara Eugenia of Spain (elder daughter of Henry II’s eldest daughter Elisabeth or Isabella). After her childless death the claim on Milan was inherited by her nephew (son of her younger sister Catalina) Victor Amadeus I of Savoy.
Claude was only the second daughter of Henry II so her heirs had an inferior claim on the inheritance of Valentina Visconti than the heirs of Elisabeth.
That makes sense.
 
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