Hahahhaha, so I'm not the only one who hears the similarity.
Someone got to them first.
Indonesia ATL: The Presidency of Try Sutrisno (1997-)
- Thread starter GSD310
- Start date
Well first thing first....
Canada being friendly to China...yeah we are talking about the country which its policy is to support China WTO membership....yeah....well Try would stumble eventually...but honestly...yeah...
100 motherfucking tanks....really....yeah....that is seriously an overkill....why do I feel like there will be news of those broken down in a years time...(I really feel like this is gonna backfire seriously hard on Najib.....)
Canada being friendly to China...yeah we are talking about the country which its policy is to support China WTO membership....yeah....well Try would stumble eventually...but honestly...yeah...
Err...we will see...
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Aih, probably Malaysia drawing closer to China since 1999 would dissuade them to conclude the deal on the first place...
Bah Malaysia and Australia do not get punished after China showing their strong arm for second cold war???
This is ridiculous higher level from western side. Hell 2014 will change because China military modernization begin showing result.
This is ridiculous higher level from western side. Hell 2014 will change because China military modernization begin showing result.
Like McCain said, they need every hands down to punish Yugoslavia, and it's only the Canadians and Aussie who are willing to do so with NATO didn't approve on the operation at the first place, let alone the UN. So McCain listened more and more to the Aussies to make Indonesia kept being weak, even if means that China would get a little stronger, and here we are.
I concur the Aussies would be blamed down the line when the Five Eyes agreement becomes permanently unworkable.
I would say ITTL France would not have the same hang-ups as the US or Redacted in dealing with a China-friendly Malaysia. But that said I can say that at this point in time Malaysia has not made the order for the Scorpene.
China selling tanks and fighter aircrafts to Malaysia is just scratching the surface as far as butterflies having an effect on when different countries get weapons, what weapons they get, how much they get and who they get them from.
Can it be said to be the Second Cold War when Australia just indirectly approved of something China had done?
But the idea of Australia being an American ally while benefitting from China is not that farfetched. In the mid 2000s in OTL, they very much supported the US' War In Iraq even as they were beginning to send coal China's way.
Just recently i read an article on KITLV's journal (Decolonization Without Self-Determination?) about Adam Malik's promise for Jose Ramos Horta in June 1974 that Indonesia respected Timorese independence and also did not claimed the Portuguese colony.
Well, that explains why in particular he's so pissed at the Indonesian government, and even moreso when Try outplayed him with the Singapore Settlement.
The source of Malik-Ramos Correspondence is here: http://casacomum.org/cc/visualizador?pasta=05000.260
Yeah, can't blame Ramos Horta for being pissed at that letter both in OTL and ITTL.
In retrospect the letter was just a starting point and at that point in time, even Soeharto was not for invasion.
For the purposes of the TL, it's intriguing what Try's POV of things would have been like in the lead-up to the invasion. He was already Soeharto's aide-de-camp in 1974.
Your "Try's Flashback" chapter seems to properly reflect how the ABRI's upper brass and Adam Malik was thinking at the moment (mid-1975). Opportunity (FRETILIN's victory) presents itself later on and they invaded, justifying it later on using APODETI and UDT's joint declarations to join Indonesia.
254: The 2003 G-8 Summit Part II
1st June 2003:
After the scolding by President of the United States John McCain, it was the denunciation by Prime Minister of Bangladesh Khaleda Zia. President Try Sutrisno sat through it as Khaleda first attacked him for causing “Islam to be persecuted and blamed” as a result of his stance in the aftermath of 9/11. And then in her capacity as Chair of the NAM, Khaleda then criticized him for “standing by and doing nothing” as the United States and its coalition conducted an unauthorized attack on Yugoslavia. When the meeting was over, Minister of Foreign Affairs Marzuki Darusman could only look sympathetically at him while State Secretary Edi Sudrajat gave him a pat in the shoulder.
The economic members of the delegation did better. As Try walked down to his next meeting Minister of Economics and National Development Planning Dorodjatun Kuntjoro-Jakti, Minister of Industry Siswono Yudohusodo, and Minister Trade Anthony Salim, reported about their meeting with the various economic delegations at the summit.
They said that they were making good progress promoting Indonesia’s Legal Timber Certification Scheme and encouraging governments not to import Indonesian timber which has not carried such a certification. Dorodjatun said that when they met with President of the European Commission Romano Prodi the latter said that the EU’s Forest Law Enforcement, Governance and Trade Action Plan is due to be completed this year and invited Indonesia to comply with the action plan once it had been agreed.
His mood briefly improved, Try took Marzuki and Dorodjatun to a meeting with Prime Minister of Japan Yukio Hatoyama, Minister of Foreign Affairs Ichiro Ozawa, and Minister of Economy, Industry, and Trade Yoshihiko Noda.
The conversation began pleasantly enough. Hatoyama told Try that Japan not only supported Indonesia’s Legal Timber Certification but even volunteered Japan to assist with the promotion of this scheme to other nations importing timber from Indonesia. At the same time he reminded Try that Indonesia had not signed the Kyoto Protocol.
Dorodjatun and Noda signed an agreement where Japan would be sending electric train carriages to Indonesia to be used as part of Jakarta’s commuter railway network. Dorodjatun and Noda also provided an update of existing projects and aid programs in particular the technical assistance being given to the feasibility study of Soekarno-Hatta International Airport’s 3rd Terminal. Hatoyama asked Try when will the construction of the new terminal start and Try said that it will begin at Repelita VIII.
The conversation took a turn when it veered from economic cooperation. Try repeated what he said to Hatoyama the last time they met at APEC 2002, that Indonesia could not try to control which nations Japan became friends with, including China. But now he added whether with the United States’ attention distracted by Yugoslavia, Japan as the United States’ main ally in Asia and as the second largest economy, would “step up” and check China. Marzuki added to Try’s flattery saying that if this was a multipolar world, then certainly Japan would be one of the “poles”.
Ozawa began to look at Try dismissively while Hatoyama remained pleasant as he waited for Try to finish.
“Japan and Indonesia’s longstanding relationship has always been based to its close economic relations and this government acknowledges that and will always be committed to the investments that has and currently been made in Indonesia by Japanese businesses and by commitments made by past Japanese government even if said government originated from a different political party”, Hatoyama said “But what you have just asked would require me to deviate from the foreign policy goal I have set for this government, that it would have an Asia-first foreign policy and building closer relations with Asian nations including yourself and China.”
“Would you not agree, Mr. Prime Minister, that by adopting your present stance towards China and with the United States being focused on Yugoslavia and the War of Terror, that the only beneficiary in this situation is China?” asked Marzuki.
“Mr. Minister of Foreign Affairs,”, Ozawa replied on Hatoyama’s behalf, faintly patronizing “Japan’s relationship in the past has always been centered on the United States, it is perhaps inevitable that when seeking to build a more balanced approach that in the interim, it will look as though Japan is becoming close to China. And if I may say so, you talk about Japan acting like a “pole” in the multipolar world, well this is the way to do it by having a foreign policy independent to that of the United States.
Try and Marzuki nodded in acknowledgment and then they turned from Ozawa to Hatoyama for an answer. There was an awkward silence for a few seconds while Ozawa and Noda smiled and Hatoyama said nothing.
Filling in the silence, Ozawa went on the offensive. Putting Try and Marzuki at ease by wishing Indonesia well as the chair and host of the ASEAN Summit that year, Ozawa asked whether given the rhetoric of the past few years, Japan’s attendance “was still required at the ASEAN+3”. This received the intended effect as Try and Marzuki stumbled to explain that Indonesia’s policy as regards ASEAN is that it is not subject to outside interference, prompting Ozawa to ask indignantly whether Japan’s participation in the ASEAN+3 constituted “outside interference”.
It was at this point that Hatoyama decided to get involved in the conversation, by beginning to summarize the discussion and signalling to bring the meeting to a close.
“Whatever happens geopolitically, I think we should be fine economically, Mr. President”, said Dorodjatun when they were back in the Indonesian delegation’s meeting room “Our two nations’ economic ties are too deep for the government of Japan to do anything unconstructive…they at the very least will have to face the ire of their business community if they try to mess around with our economic ties.”
“I agree with that”, Try said before turning to Marzuki “But geopolitically and strategically, things do look concerning.”
“Yes, Mr. President”, Marzuki said “Whatever their explanation, it can’t be doubted that this government’s foreign policy favors China and that they, for the moment, cannot be relied upon strategically. They’re not due for another election until 2006.”
“That situation in there, Ozawa being the dominant voice on foreign affairs, what’s happening there?” began Try.
“Minister Ozawa’s nickname is the Shadow Shogun, Mr. President”, Marzuki replied “That should tell you who holds the real power in the Japanese government right now regardless of Prime Minister Hatoyama being officially in charge.”
Try massaged his head as he thought things through.
“It’s just that I think we need partners and allies that are not within ASEAN but still within the Asian region for our purposes”, Try said “We have one in India, I always thought Japan would be another one. We can build the deep ties that we have with Japan in the economic field to the strategic level but I guess not…”
“It doesn’t have to be Japan, Mr. President”, Marzuki encouraged “Let’s put aside the sakura flowers for now and start thinking about ginsengs…”
It was late afternoon when Try, accompanied by Marzuki Darusman and Minister of Defense and Security Wiranto, arrived for his next appointment. Emerging out of the meeting room was his next appointment’s previous appointment, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom Gordon Brown. Try and Brown shook hands and exchanged pleasantries, Try getting the sense that Brown was curious to speak to him.
When Try got into the meeting room, President of Russia Yevgeny Primakov and Minister of Foreign Affairs Igor Ivanov were watching a television screen broadcasting President of the United States John McCain and President of China Luo Gan shaking hands with each other. Ivanov was annoyed that the protocol officer had not informed them that the Indonesians were coming and that Primakov had “been caught watching” the television.
Primakov however, took a more philosophical view. He began the meeting by saying with a long talk criticizing those who think that the Multipolar World is the New Cold War and ridiculed McCain as a “Cold Warrior seeking to contain the influence of the Soviet Union” and probably thinking he could play the China card because he had met with Luo Gan. Primakov also ridiculed McCain’s effort to court the Baltic States saying that he was playing an “old game” trying to get the support from Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania. Primakov contrasted this to the “new game” he was playing by signing the agreement he had signed in late 2002 with Germany to develop a Northern European gas pipeline (“Let him have Repse, Kallas, as well as Adamkus and Kubilius because I have gotten Schroder.”)
While once again expressing Indonesia’s happiness that Russia had not escalated its involvement in Yugoslavia beyond providing military aid Try asked Primakov whether Russia would not be better off focusing on its economy. Primakov replied that Yugoslavia is an ally and given that the so-called humanitarian intervention had not been sanctioned by the UN and NATO, the United States must be shown that its will “does not reign supreme” and that it cannot just throw its weight around.
“Permit me to ask a question of my own, if I may, Mr. President”, Primakov said “The President of Yugoslavia mentions you quite a bit in his conversations with me. I was astounded that you warranted a mention because Indonesia is so far away from Yugoslavia but President Milosevic said that he was surprised that another multi-ethnic nation with a history of separatist rebellion like Indonesia could not see that this sets a precedent; if a government takes action on behalf of territorial integrity against those trying to illegally secede, they get a “humanitarian intervention” from the West in response.”
“President Milosevic believes this humanitarian intervention aims to further carve up Yugoslavia, Mr. President?” asked Try.
“Well, the President of Montenegro has claimed mandate to hold an independence referendum and I am wary of Kosovo’s intentions, which is why I have withdrawn Russian forces from the KFOR”, Primakov explained “But I am curious as to your thoughts on this.”
Try kept a poker face though all that he had learned about the OPM, GAM, and Fretilin recently floated in his mind.
“There’s no separatist movements in Indonesia at the moment”, Try declared “They have not shown their face in recent years and have no reason to show their face because the regions where such movements have emerged have received more autonomy and more economic development than they could imagine under my predecessor.”
“And if they still show their face after all of that?” Primakov asked with a wry smile.
“Let’s just say they’ll be making a mistake”, Try said.
The discussion moved on from there and Wiranto’s presence already telegraphed Try’s intentions for that meeting for Primakov who asked what kind of equipment are they looking for that they were willing to dig around in Afghanistan. Try and Wiranto told Primakov what they were after. Primakov only chuckled when he heard this.
“Yes, whatever shortcomings you have on the manpower side, you are serious about strengthening your military capability” Primakov commented before firmly saying “But at the moment Russia is not in a position to offer anything to you from the standpoint of military equipment.”
Try and Wiranto both nodded their acknowledgments.
“This because first and foremost, Russia’s priority when it comes to weapons production this year will be itself, in the event that the other side chooses to be the one to escalates, and Yugoslavia to which it is providing and will continue to provide military aid”, Primakov continued “And secondly, because I know what game you are trying to play…I indulged Vladimir Vladimirovich and gave Indonesia a $1 Billion military equipment credit earlier in the year but now I will tell you what I told him; that China is Russia’s main strategic partner and that nothing must come in the way between Russia and China.”
As the meeting wrapped up, Try chuckled to himself and wondered if Primakov saw his attempt at trying to divide and conquer from a mile away.
When the meeting was finished, Primakov and Ivanov were talking excitedly Marzuki because the latter’s father had been Indonesia’s Ambassador to the Soviet Union in the 70s and Marzuki was asking them questions about how things were in Moscow and could mention things that showed that he had been to Russia before. Primakov however could see that Try and Wiranto were feeling a bit left out and moved over to them to leave Marzuki and Ivanov chatting together.
“Having said all that I have said to you earlier”, Primakov said “I just want to add if it is weapons that you’re looking for, there is a place where you can find them aplenty and the person in charge there might just let things go at a cheaper price because they’re cash-strapped over there.”
Try and Wiranto listened to Primakov, all the while trying to figure out who or what he was talking about.
“Keep in mind, though”, Primakov said with a tone of caution “You go to this place and get military equipment from it, there are a lot of people who will get angry at you, including those who have made it possible for you to go without paying debt for the next 10 years. No amount of threatening that the occasion has arrived for you to join BRIC as a full member can save you then.”
Try laughed again as another world leader revealed that they have figured out his game. Primakov shook Try’s hand and then went away to his next appointment.
“Who or what is President Primakov talking about?” asked Try to a thoughtful-looking Wiranto once Primakov was out of earshot.
“Iraq, Mr. President”, Wiranto replied “Saddam Hussein…”
---
I daresay Khaleda Zia’s rant is not merely her expressing Bangladesh’s opinion of things but also how Indonesia might be seen in some of the international forums we have not seen in a while, in this case the OIC (Last summit 2000, next summit 2003 in Malaysia) and the NAM (Last summit 2001, next summit 2004 in TBD).
“Pro-China” is the last thing Japan's pro-China politicians would describe themselves as. They always describe themselves as pursuing an “equidistant” policy between the United States and China or wanting an Asia-Centric foreign policy or an independent foreign policy but never “Pro-China”.
The foreign policy which Hatoyama and Ozawa are pursuing are their OTL foreign policy brought forward a few years https://eastasiaforum.org/2010/08/03/the-decay-of-the-angel-the-unraveling-of-japans-foreign-policy/
Noda’s the quiet one of the bunch but when he was prime minister in OTL, he was worried about claiming sovereignty over Senkaku Islands out of fear this would not be received well in Beijing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshihiko_Noda#Senkaku_Islands
There are pro-Chinese politicians in the LDP just as they are anti-Chinese politicians in the DJP but this government is very much friendly towards China.
Primakov hints that the Baltics here are filled with Pro-US governments and are being brought into the US fold.
Repse is the PM of Latvia (taking over within a similar timeframe as OTL) while Laar in Estonia manages to cling on to power because the emergence of Primakov causes his coalition so stick around for longer though in the 2003 election his party loses the election and he gets replaced as PM by Siim Kallas who will get a longer run unlike in OTL. Meanwhile Adamkus gets re-elected in 2003 in Lithuania unlike in OTL and Kubilius gets a longer run as PM of Lithuania. Basically this part of the world is wary of Russia’s intentions ITTL with Primakov running around.
There’s a clue here about the internal dynamics between Primakov and “Vladimir Vladimirovich” about how Russia should relate to China. I think ITTL “Vladimir Vladimirovich” will not be exactly the same as his OTL counterpart.
This gas pipeline is of course ITTL’s version of Nord Stream I. In OTL the agreement was 2005, in ITTL it is 2002. Schroder signing the agreement with Primakov reflects his OTL version and his favorable attitude towards Russia.
Primakov and Saddam’s OTL relationship https://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/02/23/sprj.irq.primakov.reut/index.html
After the scolding by President of the United States John McCain, it was the denunciation by Prime Minister of Bangladesh Khaleda Zia. President Try Sutrisno sat through it as Khaleda first attacked him for causing “Islam to be persecuted and blamed” as a result of his stance in the aftermath of 9/11. And then in her capacity as Chair of the NAM, Khaleda then criticized him for “standing by and doing nothing” as the United States and its coalition conducted an unauthorized attack on Yugoslavia. When the meeting was over, Minister of Foreign Affairs Marzuki Darusman could only look sympathetically at him while State Secretary Edi Sudrajat gave him a pat in the shoulder.
The economic members of the delegation did better. As Try walked down to his next meeting Minister of Economics and National Development Planning Dorodjatun Kuntjoro-Jakti, Minister of Industry Siswono Yudohusodo, and Minister Trade Anthony Salim, reported about their meeting with the various economic delegations at the summit.
They said that they were making good progress promoting Indonesia’s Legal Timber Certification Scheme and encouraging governments not to import Indonesian timber which has not carried such a certification. Dorodjatun said that when they met with President of the European Commission Romano Prodi the latter said that the EU’s Forest Law Enforcement, Governance and Trade Action Plan is due to be completed this year and invited Indonesia to comply with the action plan once it had been agreed.
His mood briefly improved, Try took Marzuki and Dorodjatun to a meeting with Prime Minister of Japan Yukio Hatoyama, Minister of Foreign Affairs Ichiro Ozawa, and Minister of Economy, Industry, and Trade Yoshihiko Noda.
The conversation began pleasantly enough. Hatoyama told Try that Japan not only supported Indonesia’s Legal Timber Certification but even volunteered Japan to assist with the promotion of this scheme to other nations importing timber from Indonesia. At the same time he reminded Try that Indonesia had not signed the Kyoto Protocol.
Dorodjatun and Noda signed an agreement where Japan would be sending electric train carriages to Indonesia to be used as part of Jakarta’s commuter railway network. Dorodjatun and Noda also provided an update of existing projects and aid programs in particular the technical assistance being given to the feasibility study of Soekarno-Hatta International Airport’s 3rd Terminal. Hatoyama asked Try when will the construction of the new terminal start and Try said that it will begin at Repelita VIII.
The conversation took a turn when it veered from economic cooperation. Try repeated what he said to Hatoyama the last time they met at APEC 2002, that Indonesia could not try to control which nations Japan became friends with, including China. But now he added whether with the United States’ attention distracted by Yugoslavia, Japan as the United States’ main ally in Asia and as the second largest economy, would “step up” and check China. Marzuki added to Try’s flattery saying that if this was a multipolar world, then certainly Japan would be one of the “poles”.
Ozawa began to look at Try dismissively while Hatoyama remained pleasant as he waited for Try to finish.
“Japan and Indonesia’s longstanding relationship has always been based to its close economic relations and this government acknowledges that and will always be committed to the investments that has and currently been made in Indonesia by Japanese businesses and by commitments made by past Japanese government even if said government originated from a different political party”, Hatoyama said “But what you have just asked would require me to deviate from the foreign policy goal I have set for this government, that it would have an Asia-first foreign policy and building closer relations with Asian nations including yourself and China.”
“Would you not agree, Mr. Prime Minister, that by adopting your present stance towards China and with the United States being focused on Yugoslavia and the War of Terror, that the only beneficiary in this situation is China?” asked Marzuki.
“Mr. Minister of Foreign Affairs,”, Ozawa replied on Hatoyama’s behalf, faintly patronizing “Japan’s relationship in the past has always been centered on the United States, it is perhaps inevitable that when seeking to build a more balanced approach that in the interim, it will look as though Japan is becoming close to China. And if I may say so, you talk about Japan acting like a “pole” in the multipolar world, well this is the way to do it by having a foreign policy independent to that of the United States.
Try and Marzuki nodded in acknowledgment and then they turned from Ozawa to Hatoyama for an answer. There was an awkward silence for a few seconds while Ozawa and Noda smiled and Hatoyama said nothing.
Filling in the silence, Ozawa went on the offensive. Putting Try and Marzuki at ease by wishing Indonesia well as the chair and host of the ASEAN Summit that year, Ozawa asked whether given the rhetoric of the past few years, Japan’s attendance “was still required at the ASEAN+3”. This received the intended effect as Try and Marzuki stumbled to explain that Indonesia’s policy as regards ASEAN is that it is not subject to outside interference, prompting Ozawa to ask indignantly whether Japan’s participation in the ASEAN+3 constituted “outside interference”.
It was at this point that Hatoyama decided to get involved in the conversation, by beginning to summarize the discussion and signalling to bring the meeting to a close.
“Whatever happens geopolitically, I think we should be fine economically, Mr. President”, said Dorodjatun when they were back in the Indonesian delegation’s meeting room “Our two nations’ economic ties are too deep for the government of Japan to do anything unconstructive…they at the very least will have to face the ire of their business community if they try to mess around with our economic ties.”
“I agree with that”, Try said before turning to Marzuki “But geopolitically and strategically, things do look concerning.”
“Yes, Mr. President”, Marzuki said “Whatever their explanation, it can’t be doubted that this government’s foreign policy favors China and that they, for the moment, cannot be relied upon strategically. They’re not due for another election until 2006.”
“That situation in there, Ozawa being the dominant voice on foreign affairs, what’s happening there?” began Try.
“Minister Ozawa’s nickname is the Shadow Shogun, Mr. President”, Marzuki replied “That should tell you who holds the real power in the Japanese government right now regardless of Prime Minister Hatoyama being officially in charge.”
Try massaged his head as he thought things through.
“It’s just that I think we need partners and allies that are not within ASEAN but still within the Asian region for our purposes”, Try said “We have one in India, I always thought Japan would be another one. We can build the deep ties that we have with Japan in the economic field to the strategic level but I guess not…”
“It doesn’t have to be Japan, Mr. President”, Marzuki encouraged “Let’s put aside the sakura flowers for now and start thinking about ginsengs…”
It was late afternoon when Try, accompanied by Marzuki Darusman and Minister of Defense and Security Wiranto, arrived for his next appointment. Emerging out of the meeting room was his next appointment’s previous appointment, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom Gordon Brown. Try and Brown shook hands and exchanged pleasantries, Try getting the sense that Brown was curious to speak to him.
When Try got into the meeting room, President of Russia Yevgeny Primakov and Minister of Foreign Affairs Igor Ivanov were watching a television screen broadcasting President of the United States John McCain and President of China Luo Gan shaking hands with each other. Ivanov was annoyed that the protocol officer had not informed them that the Indonesians were coming and that Primakov had “been caught watching” the television.
Primakov however, took a more philosophical view. He began the meeting by saying with a long talk criticizing those who think that the Multipolar World is the New Cold War and ridiculed McCain as a “Cold Warrior seeking to contain the influence of the Soviet Union” and probably thinking he could play the China card because he had met with Luo Gan. Primakov also ridiculed McCain’s effort to court the Baltic States saying that he was playing an “old game” trying to get the support from Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania. Primakov contrasted this to the “new game” he was playing by signing the agreement he had signed in late 2002 with Germany to develop a Northern European gas pipeline (“Let him have Repse, Kallas, as well as Adamkus and Kubilius because I have gotten Schroder.”)
While once again expressing Indonesia’s happiness that Russia had not escalated its involvement in Yugoslavia beyond providing military aid Try asked Primakov whether Russia would not be better off focusing on its economy. Primakov replied that Yugoslavia is an ally and given that the so-called humanitarian intervention had not been sanctioned by the UN and NATO, the United States must be shown that its will “does not reign supreme” and that it cannot just throw its weight around.
“Permit me to ask a question of my own, if I may, Mr. President”, Primakov said “The President of Yugoslavia mentions you quite a bit in his conversations with me. I was astounded that you warranted a mention because Indonesia is so far away from Yugoslavia but President Milosevic said that he was surprised that another multi-ethnic nation with a history of separatist rebellion like Indonesia could not see that this sets a precedent; if a government takes action on behalf of territorial integrity against those trying to illegally secede, they get a “humanitarian intervention” from the West in response.”
“President Milosevic believes this humanitarian intervention aims to further carve up Yugoslavia, Mr. President?” asked Try.
“Well, the President of Montenegro has claimed mandate to hold an independence referendum and I am wary of Kosovo’s intentions, which is why I have withdrawn Russian forces from the KFOR”, Primakov explained “But I am curious as to your thoughts on this.”
Try kept a poker face though all that he had learned about the OPM, GAM, and Fretilin recently floated in his mind.
“There’s no separatist movements in Indonesia at the moment”, Try declared “They have not shown their face in recent years and have no reason to show their face because the regions where such movements have emerged have received more autonomy and more economic development than they could imagine under my predecessor.”
“And if they still show their face after all of that?” Primakov asked with a wry smile.
“Let’s just say they’ll be making a mistake”, Try said.
The discussion moved on from there and Wiranto’s presence already telegraphed Try’s intentions for that meeting for Primakov who asked what kind of equipment are they looking for that they were willing to dig around in Afghanistan. Try and Wiranto told Primakov what they were after. Primakov only chuckled when he heard this.
“Yes, whatever shortcomings you have on the manpower side, you are serious about strengthening your military capability” Primakov commented before firmly saying “But at the moment Russia is not in a position to offer anything to you from the standpoint of military equipment.”
Try and Wiranto both nodded their acknowledgments.
“This because first and foremost, Russia’s priority when it comes to weapons production this year will be itself, in the event that the other side chooses to be the one to escalates, and Yugoslavia to which it is providing and will continue to provide military aid”, Primakov continued “And secondly, because I know what game you are trying to play…I indulged Vladimir Vladimirovich and gave Indonesia a $1 Billion military equipment credit earlier in the year but now I will tell you what I told him; that China is Russia’s main strategic partner and that nothing must come in the way between Russia and China.”
As the meeting wrapped up, Try chuckled to himself and wondered if Primakov saw his attempt at trying to divide and conquer from a mile away.
When the meeting was finished, Primakov and Ivanov were talking excitedly Marzuki because the latter’s father had been Indonesia’s Ambassador to the Soviet Union in the 70s and Marzuki was asking them questions about how things were in Moscow and could mention things that showed that he had been to Russia before. Primakov however could see that Try and Wiranto were feeling a bit left out and moved over to them to leave Marzuki and Ivanov chatting together.
“Having said all that I have said to you earlier”, Primakov said “I just want to add if it is weapons that you’re looking for, there is a place where you can find them aplenty and the person in charge there might just let things go at a cheaper price because they’re cash-strapped over there.”
Try and Wiranto listened to Primakov, all the while trying to figure out who or what he was talking about.
“Keep in mind, though”, Primakov said with a tone of caution “You go to this place and get military equipment from it, there are a lot of people who will get angry at you, including those who have made it possible for you to go without paying debt for the next 10 years. No amount of threatening that the occasion has arrived for you to join BRIC as a full member can save you then.”
Try laughed again as another world leader revealed that they have figured out his game. Primakov shook Try’s hand and then went away to his next appointment.
“Who or what is President Primakov talking about?” asked Try to a thoughtful-looking Wiranto once Primakov was out of earshot.
“Iraq, Mr. President”, Wiranto replied “Saddam Hussein…”
---
I daresay Khaleda Zia’s rant is not merely her expressing Bangladesh’s opinion of things but also how Indonesia might be seen in some of the international forums we have not seen in a while, in this case the OIC (Last summit 2000, next summit 2003 in Malaysia) and the NAM (Last summit 2001, next summit 2004 in TBD).
“Pro-China” is the last thing Japan's pro-China politicians would describe themselves as. They always describe themselves as pursuing an “equidistant” policy between the United States and China or wanting an Asia-Centric foreign policy or an independent foreign policy but never “Pro-China”.
The foreign policy which Hatoyama and Ozawa are pursuing are their OTL foreign policy brought forward a few years https://eastasiaforum.org/2010/08/03/the-decay-of-the-angel-the-unraveling-of-japans-foreign-policy/
Noda’s the quiet one of the bunch but when he was prime minister in OTL, he was worried about claiming sovereignty over Senkaku Islands out of fear this would not be received well in Beijing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshihiko_Noda#Senkaku_Islands
There are pro-Chinese politicians in the LDP just as they are anti-Chinese politicians in the DJP but this government is very much friendly towards China.
Primakov hints that the Baltics here are filled with Pro-US governments and are being brought into the US fold.
Repse is the PM of Latvia (taking over within a similar timeframe as OTL) while Laar in Estonia manages to cling on to power because the emergence of Primakov causes his coalition so stick around for longer though in the 2003 election his party loses the election and he gets replaced as PM by Siim Kallas who will get a longer run unlike in OTL. Meanwhile Adamkus gets re-elected in 2003 in Lithuania unlike in OTL and Kubilius gets a longer run as PM of Lithuania. Basically this part of the world is wary of Russia’s intentions ITTL with Primakov running around.
There’s a clue here about the internal dynamics between Primakov and “Vladimir Vladimirovich” about how Russia should relate to China. I think ITTL “Vladimir Vladimirovich” will not be exactly the same as his OTL counterpart.
This gas pipeline is of course ITTL’s version of Nord Stream I. In OTL the agreement was 2005, in ITTL it is 2002. Schroder signing the agreement with Primakov reflects his OTL version and his favorable attitude towards Russia.
Primakov and Saddam’s OTL relationship https://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/02/23/sprj.irq.primakov.reut/index.html
I mean, what to expect from this one?
What's next? Steering NAM to support China just to screw India and Indonesia?
Hmm, good. Another one of my prediction came true.
Well, nice for them.
Hmm?
....
Well, even if Ginandjar is here, i think he can't steer them Indonesia's way.
Well, this one means that either it would be a "5 v 4 v 3" situation in ASEAN+2 meetings, or worse... a "5 v 3 v 4" situation.
Yeah, at best it would be "5 v 4 v 3"
Just checked Wikipedia and he's listed as Minister of Home Affairs OTL.... I mean the ITTL happenings fits his OTL antics too so there's that.
Well, another one off the list.
Well, i mean it's not too late to have South Korea attended the meetings again. Also, Iran can be of help, but Saddam would be too hot for now.
Would be interesting indeed.
Lol
Also lol because Schroder saw something in Indonesia that he could replicate.
Yeah, good enough.
Ahhh, this predicament again.
Yepper.
Well, at least Primakov is savvy enough to see the West is divided up into several poles whilst he can strengthen his own.
Wait, is it Afghanistan? I mean, Khatami can helped on that matter anyway.....
OOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHH
Mubarak, Bashar, and Khatami better get their asses ready for this one. Or even have Saddam visited Jakarta for a real show of force lol.
Indonesia is surely not boxed in anymore and flaps her Garuda wings everywhere she can.
Fair enough
And because the West is not that united.
Amen to that.
But not too much... for now.
I hope Hosni Mubarak's presence would be enough to not have the meeting going wrong.
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Oh Try'll be risking his relationship with Mubarak and Khatami, to not say anything about the West that's for sure but he's been warned by Primakov.
But on the other hand, there's this:
List of former equipment of the Iraqi Ground Forces - Wikipedia
Iraqi Air Force - Wikipedia
This is of course with the disclaimer that there were weapons damaged/destroyed/flown to Iran during the Gulf War.
He's surely a hot potato to those around him... but also the exact right non-ASEAN Asian regional power that befits the country category Try wanted to approach.
One can make a case that by relying on Indonesia's status as a pole of its own and its relations with Iran and Egypt, Saddam can defang himself peacefully.
Heck, maybe even with an appropriate play by selling them to the Russians and then delivering it to Indonesia, exactly like how OTL Indonesia acquired the Israeli Skyhawks from Singapore and the Americans.
Haaa just second hand Russia Armament????
Dude please stop purchasing such garbage
Dude please stop purchasing such garbage
Nice guess though I’m not confirming or denying anything.
There will be a meeting discussing precisely this between when Try gets back to Jakarta.
Loool, we have the historical precedence after all.
It's still 2003. One and half decade later then i would agreed with your sentiment.
I won't. If we're already fighting in Kalimantan and Sumatra, or God forbid in Java itself with those Leopards, we've already lost.
Well now that we're talking about tanks, I got a challenge for you guys because I've been doing research for this and the only thing I've found is that I can appreciate why the OTL Indonesian government wants to develop a medium tank.
What can ITTL Indonesia get during this time period with the following criteria: Medium tank, max 45 tonnes, max age 30-40 years.
There's Leopard 2s heading Indonesia's way on one end of the scale and Scorpions and AMX-13s on the other end so now we're looking for something in the middle.
What can ITTL Indonesia get during this time period with the following criteria: Medium tank, max 45 tonnes, max age 30-40 years.
There's Leopard 2s heading Indonesia's way on one end of the scale and Scorpions and AMX-13s on the other end so now we're looking for something in the middle.
Yeah, it is a very hard challenge...especially with the weight limit....it seems the current option is that is looks like
1....Try had to join the American forces in Yugoslavia. Well, Indonesia is well and truly f*cked in this case...
2....it seems that, after acquiring an additional amount of Sukhoi 30, it seems there is a trend where Indonesia ITTL basically taking what Malaysia gets IOTL (which Malaysia won't ITTL)...so expect Indonesia ordering Scorpene after this/s (that being said, it is over the limit by 1 tonne...)
3...Indonesia had developed an addiction of all things AMX, and they decided to finally pursuing their unfinished business of 1985 for a start to fuel their addiction...(perhaps the age is perhaps too old for my liking...)
Yeah..it is hard...since the other options is to perhaps partnering with other countries to developed their tanks...but thay would take so long for it to even matter...