That creaking noise you can hear my friends is of The Gates of Hell being opened extra wide... 
How Silent Fall the Cherry Blossoms
- Thread starter Geon
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So....we're looking at something that combines the Morgenthau Plan with the plan the Dutch had to protect themselves by annexing the Rhine/Ruhr area. At this stage in the game, I'd be surprised if Germany and Japan were allowed any sort of self-determination before, say, 2025.
Tyr Anazasi
Banned
Erm, the Prussian traditions were to obey orders, true. But that was only for the ordinary soldiers! They should fight in the battle and should not think about the rightfulness. That was the part of the officers. Here the higher the rank the higher the obligations to prove the orders. Thus obeying orders being unlawful. Look at General von der Marwitz. Despite July 20th I could even immagine now a plot in Germany again, as Hitler lost total control. Or, like the Nero order, I could see a non use of these weapons.
Sarin degrades after a period of several weeks to several months
in moiety condition or in water around 100 hours.
Geon
there is a operational mobil V3 Cannon operated by SS in November/December 1944
These were sited in a wooded ravine of the Ruwer River at Lampaden about 13 kilometres (8.1 mi) southeast of Trier in Germany, near Luxemburg.
now in some literature the V3 had to fire gas shell
German novelist Tomas Mann in beginn 1945 in this TL
Regarding Von Rundstedt, I would expect almost any WW2 German officer to use any weapon in warfare if ordered to do so, and not consider the supposed moral dimension. Most were veterans of the use of gas in WW1, and qualms would based on the presumption that the Allies would reciprocate. Now if the plans are for something more nefarious*, maybe. But I don't see a hint of that on the west front yet.
I'm glad that Von Rundstedt will apparently follow orders since it begins to stretch the plausbility envelope for so many key Axis players not known for moral strength to start having bouts of morality.
*like infecting all allied POWs with plague and letting then "escape" and return to allies lines and spread disease
I'm glad that Von Rundstedt will apparently follow orders since it begins to stretch the plausbility envelope for so many key Axis players not known for moral strength to start having bouts of morality.
*like infecting all allied POWs with plague and letting then "escape" and return to allies lines and spread disease
The things is that people aren't thinking before they post stuff like "Germany and Japan will become unlivable". Sure many ordinary Americans in TTL might like that to happen but the point that zoomar makes about the Allied leadership still having a sense of perspective seems all too overlooked. Will more Axis civvies dies? Yes? A lot more? Maybe. All or nearly all of them? No way.
The Poles, Soviets, and Chinese all had far greater casualty percentages inflicted upon them than the OTL Allies did upon the Axis and nobody considers them to have "ceased to exist".
Artatochor
Banned
Would reinforcing Operation Bodenplatte with gas attacks cripple Allied ability to control the skies, in long term? In another timeline, I read about attacks on airbases with persistent chemical weapons, to render them unusable.
Use of any gas in winter reduces the effectiveness, especially for agents like mustard, and nerve agents which are not actually gases but aerosols which precipitate out (and freeze) in cold weather, also get diluted in the large amounts of snow on the ground. While gas may produce more casualties initially it won't make the breakout any better as once the panzers outpace artillery no gas can be used (Luftwaffe can't deliver gas bombs due to weather and/or allied air superiority) and the Heer still is short of POL so a good bit of artillery has to be horse drawn and they don't do well going through a gassed area, especially nerve agents which go through the skin.
In the end the "Bulge" may be bigger but when its pinched off more chance of higher German losses. Even though the allies don't nerve agents they have plenty of other agents to shower on German troops and potentially German cities and factories. If the Germans use gas on the UK proper, expect Vegetarian to happen.
In the end the "Bulge" may be bigger but when its pinched off more chance of higher German losses. Even though the allies don't nerve agents they have plenty of other agents to shower on German troops and potentially German cities and factories. If the Germans use gas on the UK proper, expect Vegetarian to happen.
Garrison
Donor
There is also the point that its become clear in recent years that the German army was far more deeply involved with the Holocaust than was admitted in the immediate post war years. I suspect their only qualms are going to be about retaliation.
Exactly, it would take far more than German and Japanese use of biological and chemical weapons to radically change how the victorious allies deal with the German and Japanese people. Would there be more war crimes trials and executions of German and Japanese leaders? Sure. Would the Allied occupations and de-Nazification/de-militarization policies be more thorough? Of course. Will more German and Japanese civilians die from bombing and possible allied use of gas and germs? Quite possibly. But will "Germany and Japan become unlivable"? No. Even Stalin's USSR, not known as a bastion of good, did not seek to depopulate Germany despite the unspeakable brutality of German forces in the Soviet Union . The US would deploy only those weapons necessary to force the enemy to surrender. Once Japan collapses, they are not going to drop nukes on Japan just to kill people.
zoomar
I think its less a question of morality than a growing realisation that "this is suicide". Especially given how they know fully well that the western allies can and will retaliate with much greater devastation.
Also, how are the Germans going to hand their advance if they do spray nerve gas about generously? It might be neutered somewhat by the weather but how much of their own spearheads are they going to lose to the gas?
Steve
Sarin with freezing point of -58°C remains a volatile deathly chemical even in winter.
like Tabun with freezing point of -48°C
also Soman with freezing point of -70°C
Lucky Soma were only little amount produces in Lab
sadly Sarin were 40 tons produced
on Tabun the SS had produce around 12000 metric tons.
and you need full body suit to operate with that stuff
what sloreck means with Vegetarian to happen is Operation Vegetarian, the British bombing of Third reich with Anthrax in oder to kill the german livestock.
Operation Bodenplatte was absurd tragedy, Göring 1944 master plan could not operate ...do bad weather.
But was crucial for German ground forces during The Battle of the Bulge, because they had to destroy the Allies Air force and there base.
because they were operational the allies could destroy the German troops by Bombing as the weather became better.
but instead of cancelled Operation Bodenplatte and use it resources for more better task. Göring push the attack in january 1945.
do lack of information 1/4 of Luftwaffe fleet was shoot down by GERMAN Anti aircraft gun !
it wasted the last remains of Luftwaffe and there last aces Pilots, with little damage at Allies. it's even called "Death Of The Luftwaffe"
but it gave the most sensational air combat the world ever had seen. the legend of Y-29
like Lt. Jack Kennedy who stay in his burning P-51 and start to chase the BF109 who shoot him...
see "Death Of The Luftwaffe" here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=booCDyCFxFg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyJUXttD2oQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjnYo7qECzg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LryvsoDEl7w
By this stage, The Austrian was not all that coherent a lot of the time. Between Parkinsons and quack "doctors" I doubt that would even register to him.
Yep, its probably going to get tied up in his belief that the best of the German people have already perished and those who remain deserve to die. Its going to be like the Nero Order on a giant scale...
From what I've heard Churchill was eager to launch gas attacks on the Ruhr in retaliation for the V2 attacks and had to be talked out of it by Alanbrooke.
If the Germans do use gas in the Ardennes then the retaliation will be immediate and massive.
German industrial production will be crippled by the end of 1944.
When the wind blows
The general prevailing wind in western Europe is from the south-west.
Did Hitler never learn not to pi55 in the wind?
The general prevailing wind in western Europe is from the south-west.
Did Hitler never learn not to pi55 in the wind?
Garrison
Donor
The Japanese attack appears to have tipped Hitler right over the edge; I think he may be afraid of being eclipsed in the history books and is taking the brakes off to ensure he's never forgotten.
trekchu
Very true but I'm thinking more of the people who are carrying out the orders.
Steve
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