Indeed.
Irving's attempts to blacken the WAllies were part of his whole holocaust denial campaign - to make each side look as bad as the other.
How Silent Fall the Cherry Blossoms
- Thread starter Geon
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Indeed.
Irving's attempts to blacken the WAllies were part of his whole holocaust denial campaign - to make each side look as bad as the other.
Geon
Donor
Air Battle
Here is a brief but important update. I apologize that I must write this important battle in such general terms. Choreographing battles is not my strongpoint. If someone would like to use this update as a guideline to write a more detailed account please pm the account to me and I will see about adding it as an addendum to the story.
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Date: December 24, 1944
Location: Over Brussels, Belgium
Time: 11:00 a.m.
It would be called “the bloodiest day in the air of the European War.” Over 1,500 Allied planes, medium bombers, fighters, dive bombers launched from airfields all over northern and central France converged on three targets, Brussels, the remaining V3 site, and Dora. The objective was to knock out the last of the big guns and stop the Panzers in their tracks.
The German Luftwaffe rose to meet them with Adolph Galland in the lead wave of planes. The first wave of 800 planes was made up of every fighter that could be scrounged together fueled and flown. The plan was for them to engage the escorts. Ten minutes after they engaged the enemy the second wave would bore in, 200 Me-262 jet fighters using practically the last drop of fuel reserve available to the Reich. Their targets were the bombers, specifically the bombers heading for Brussels.
For the better part of a half hour observers on the ground would be party to one of the greatest dogfights in history played out over a space of a hundred miles. Galland had tried to get the most skilled pilots possible for the second wave, the first wave needed to distract the interceptor escorts and did so with a vengeance. As the bombers approached Brussels the Me-262s bored in attacking as many as possible. Their speed allowed them to slip and do damage aplenty before they had to withdraw because of fuel restrictions. Within a half hour it was over.
To this day military historians argue about the results of the battle. Some claim it to have been a smashing victory for the Allies with the destruction of the last V3 site and the German rail gun “Dora.” However, there was another result in that a third of the medium bombers assigned to attack the Panzers in Brussels never reached their targets and many were forced to drop their payloads early or late.
The Allies would end up losing 523 aircraft that day. The German would end up losing 618 aircraft from their first wave and 25 from their precious jets. There was one vital difference however, the Allies could afford their losses and easily replace them, and the Germans could not. Nevertheless the Luftwaffe had managed to buy the Panzers on the ground one more precious day of life. The two Panzer divisions had been damaged but not ravaged.
The greater loss to Germany came in the death of one of the fighter pilots. Adolph Galland died a hero’s death in the first wave of planes, but only after he had added three more kills to his score. Like the Red Baron in World War I his body was later recovered by Allied troops and given a burial with military honors. Despite all that the Germans had done in the bloody Ardennes Offensive, these were still men who appreciated bravery, courage, and honor on both sides.
Here is a brief but important update. I apologize that I must write this important battle in such general terms. Choreographing battles is not my strongpoint. If someone would like to use this update as a guideline to write a more detailed account please pm the account to me and I will see about adding it as an addendum to the story.
----------
Date: December 24, 1944
Location: Over Brussels, Belgium
Time: 11:00 a.m.
It would be called “the bloodiest day in the air of the European War.” Over 1,500 Allied planes, medium bombers, fighters, dive bombers launched from airfields all over northern and central France converged on three targets, Brussels, the remaining V3 site, and Dora. The objective was to knock out the last of the big guns and stop the Panzers in their tracks.
The German Luftwaffe rose to meet them with Adolph Galland in the lead wave of planes. The first wave of 800 planes was made up of every fighter that could be scrounged together fueled and flown. The plan was for them to engage the escorts. Ten minutes after they engaged the enemy the second wave would bore in, 200 Me-262 jet fighters using practically the last drop of fuel reserve available to the Reich. Their targets were the bombers, specifically the bombers heading for Brussels.
For the better part of a half hour observers on the ground would be party to one of the greatest dogfights in history played out over a space of a hundred miles. Galland had tried to get the most skilled pilots possible for the second wave, the first wave needed to distract the interceptor escorts and did so with a vengeance. As the bombers approached Brussels the Me-262s bored in attacking as many as possible. Their speed allowed them to slip and do damage aplenty before they had to withdraw because of fuel restrictions. Within a half hour it was over.
To this day military historians argue about the results of the battle. Some claim it to have been a smashing victory for the Allies with the destruction of the last V3 site and the German rail gun “Dora.” However, there was another result in that a third of the medium bombers assigned to attack the Panzers in Brussels never reached their targets and many were forced to drop their payloads early or late.
The Allies would end up losing 523 aircraft that day. The German would end up losing 618 aircraft from their first wave and 25 from their precious jets. There was one vital difference however, the Allies could afford their losses and easily replace them, and the Germans could not. Nevertheless the Luftwaffe had managed to buy the Panzers on the ground one more precious day of life. The two Panzer divisions had been damaged but not ravaged.
The greater loss to Germany came in the death of one of the fighter pilots. Adolph Galland died a hero’s death in the first wave of planes, but only after he had added three more kills to his score. Like the Red Baron in World War I his body was later recovered by Allied troops and given a burial with military honors. Despite all that the Germans had done in the bloody Ardennes Offensive, these were still men who appreciated bravery, courage, and honor on both sides.
Last edited:
Donald Reaver
Donor
Wow, losing 618 out 800 including Galland in the first wave, effectively wipes out the Luftwaffe. What they have left, even including the jets, once the allies reorganize in day or two, will be swamped in any attack they make.
Tyr Anazasi
Banned
I think the German losses are too high. I would think it would be less than the Allied ones especially as the Allied ones were bombers, overwhelmed by such a force of 800 planes. Thus I would give the German losses to "only" 300 about.
even 300 is crushing.
B-17s will have no trouble bombing factories and gassing cities for the rest of the war. Most bombing missions into Germany won't see a single enemy plane for at least the next month.
Given that the Wallies have almost twice the number of planes, have better trained pilots and better fighters, you want the number of german losses to be LOWER?
Does not compute.
Garrison
Donor
Yeah at the loss of pretty much their entire capability to engage the USAAF daylight raids they've delayed the destruction of the Panzers for a day. They may have a delayed they end of the war in Europe a couple of months(and the transfer of divisions on the Eastern front probably had more effect) but all that will get them is mushroom clouds over the Reich.
Archibald
Banned
Indeed the Luftwaffe is gone. It is important to distinguish between the medium bombers (A-20 / A-26, B-25 / B-26) and the heavies. Looks like it is the tactical bombers chasing the big guns that took a toll. It can be reasonnably supposed that B-17 / B-24 raids against cities did not happened that day. And one don't use B-17 or B-24 to chase tactical guns.
End result: surely, the Luftwaffe had somewhat mauled the Allies TACTICAL force of medium bombers... at the cost of its own existence, meaning that heavy bomber raids won't be opposed (as noted above).
Whatever, even all the lost medium bombers will be replaced soon.
It is even possible that Galland desesperate effort included night fighters in the daylight mission (it happened OTL) meaning the RAF night bombers will be even less bothered.
End result: surely, the Luftwaffe had somewhat mauled the Allies TACTICAL force of medium bombers... at the cost of its own existence, meaning that heavy bomber raids won't be opposed (as noted above).
Whatever, even all the lost medium bombers will be replaced soon.
It is even possible that Galland desesperate effort included night fighters in the daylight mission (it happened OTL) meaning the RAF night bombers will be even less bothered.
So, now that the Luftwaffe has been destroyed, the panzers will follow in short order. This means that the Western Allies can blaze away at the Germans pretty much unmolested.
Tyr Anazasi
Banned
Considering the fight was only 35 minutes the figures are not very realistic though. And yes, I would reduce the German losses. Fighters against bombers is usually not a good thing for the bombers, especially if the fighter cover is no longer there.
If we look at the Big Week the Allies lost over 400 planes while the Germans lost 355. Of them "only" 100 fighter pilots had died. Thus I think these numbers COULD be real for a day long air battle. However, these losses are also for the Allies too high to continue the next day as nothing happened.
If we look at the Big Week the Allies lost over 400 planes while the Germans lost 355. Of them "only" 100 fighter pilots had died. Thus I think these numbers COULD be real for a day long air battle. However, these losses are also for the Allies too high to continue the next day as nothing happened.
You need to realize that there is a difference between attacking a group of B25/B26/A20's and a group of P47/Typhoons/A26's. If you were attacking them with 109 or 190 the former is in trouble but the latter, if they dump there bombs, are more evenly matched. Also they have fighter cover up with them as stated by Geon.
I think you overexagerrate Soviet problems acquiring gas masks; according to Glantz in Colossus Reborn the Red Army had numerous chemical warfare battalions attached to Fronts and Armies. While some were for the use of smoke, many were for defensive or offensive purposes. Further, hundreds of thousands of gas masks were issued to Soviet soldiers. While most were discarded, many remained in storage in case of chemical attacks. Many did still keep their masks within their units.
Further, the Red Army was conducting active Razvedka and Maskirovka during the late December-Early January period in preparation for the Vistula-Poznan Offensive. Combine that with their penetration of German strategic decision making and there's no reason why they would be surprised by the German deployment of chemical weapons; suitable preparations would have been made. Further, by late December 1st Ukrainian and Belorussian Fronts had fully mapped out their fire plans for the Vistua-Poznan Operation and had received their required ammunition, meaning that they could immediately open up with devastating counter-battery fire against German positions even before the Germans begin using chemical weapons. IOTL their fire utterly devastated German forces. Finally, the two Fronts had been conducting intense Maskirovka operations such that German forces were bombarding false concentrations and batteries even up to the start of the operation.
Finally, they Red Army has its own stocks of chemical and biological weapons which could be brought to the front as soon as news the German decision to use chemical weapons reached the STAVKA.
So basically any German attempt to use chemical weapons along the Vistula will be met by a devastating Soviet preemptive barrage followed by continuous counter-battery attacks, probably with chemical weapons. The Red Army will also conduct spoiling attacks into the German rear to destroy chemical batteries; a penetration of 10-20 kilometeres is certainly possible given how weak German forces along the Vistula were.
Further, the Red Army was conducting active Razvedka and Maskirovka during the late December-Early January period in preparation for the Vistula-Poznan Offensive. Combine that with their penetration of German strategic decision making and there's no reason why they would be surprised by the German deployment of chemical weapons; suitable preparations would have been made. Further, by late December 1st Ukrainian and Belorussian Fronts had fully mapped out their fire plans for the Vistua-Poznan Operation and had received their required ammunition, meaning that they could immediately open up with devastating counter-battery fire against German positions even before the Germans begin using chemical weapons. IOTL their fire utterly devastated German forces. Finally, the two Fronts had been conducting intense Maskirovka operations such that German forces were bombarding false concentrations and batteries even up to the start of the operation.
Finally, they Red Army has its own stocks of chemical and biological weapons which could be brought to the front as soon as news the German decision to use chemical weapons reached the STAVKA.
So basically any German attempt to use chemical weapons along the Vistula will be met by a devastating Soviet preemptive barrage followed by continuous counter-battery attacks, probably with chemical weapons. The Red Army will also conduct spoiling attacks into the German rear to destroy chemical batteries; a penetration of 10-20 kilometeres is certainly possible given how weak German forces along the Vistula were.
So Germany has pissed off all the Allied powers while its last throw of the dice has failed in its main objectives. The final destruction of Germany is going to be exceptionally nasty, I'm awaiting the rest of this story with trepidation. 
Remember the psychological effect a single gas attack had on Philidelphia.
After the first gas attack on Germany there will be panic from anyone who sees an allied bomber flying overhead.
And they are going to be flying overhead continuously now.
On a related note how much protective equipment was available in Germany? Enough for the Germans? Did the foreign slave workers have any?
Dan has hit it on the head, it was made clear that the Luftwaffe used up a huge amount of what fuel it had left. This means whatever planes and pilots are left are not flying very much, and the training pipeline has been shut down for all practical purposes. Given where the air battles were, its good odds that a fair number of shot down allied aircrew will get back to allied lines, although many will be captured. Also, as noted in a melee like this even expert pilots can get mobbed or jumped unexpectedly (like Galland) so not only has Germany lost a lot of pilots, but their experienced core has been slashed badly.
The reality is the day after this air battle the allies have plenty of JABOs and medium bombers to savage the German Army, and the Luftwaffe now has zero ability to prevent it. An unarmed Piper Cub could fly over the Panzers dropping grenades without worrying about being shot down by German fighter (of course ground fire is another issue). Within 3-5 days anything German visible from the air in this "bulge" will be wrecked - so ends the Heer.
As far as German cities, the heavies now have a free run except for flak day and night & it won't be long before the mediums and JABOs are scouring the countryside hitting trains, trucks, smaller towns etc.
The reality is the day after this air battle the allies have plenty of JABOs and medium bombers to savage the German Army, and the Luftwaffe now has zero ability to prevent it. An unarmed Piper Cub could fly over the Panzers dropping grenades without worrying about being shot down by German fighter (of course ground fire is another issue). Within 3-5 days anything German visible from the air in this "bulge" will be wrecked - so ends the Heer.
As far as German cities, the heavies now have a free run except for flak day and night & it won't be long before the mediums and JABOs are scouring the countryside hitting trains, trucks, smaller towns etc.
Back to using Grand Slam and Tallboy. 617 sqn was the only one set up for the specials and I believe they could get just under 40 modified Lancasters in the air at once.
So put these in the middle of the formation. Lead off with heavies carrying a mix of 1000lb and mines. Wave 2 being the Tallboys & Grandslams - these do the deep damage to the U-Bahns, sewers, gas mains, water pipes and electrical grids, then follow up with a further mix of 1000lb and incendiaries. No gas needed although dropping gas mines on a timedfuse, (say a 3 hour delay fuse), would create denied areas. The downside for this is the life expectancy of captured aircrew now drops to minutes if civilians get hold of them.
So put these in the middle of the formation. Lead off with heavies carrying a mix of 1000lb and mines. Wave 2 being the Tallboys & Grandslams - these do the deep damage to the U-Bahns, sewers, gas mains, water pipes and electrical grids, then follow up with a further mix of 1000lb and incendiaries. No gas needed although dropping gas mines on a timedfuse, (say a 3 hour delay fuse), would create denied areas. The downside for this is the life expectancy of captured aircrew now drops to minutes if civilians get hold of them.
First, Congratulation Geon for Post 100 in this TL
Statistic on "How Silent Fall the Cherry Blossoms"
TL Post: 104
Total post: 1558
Views: 139874
Statistic on "How Silent Fall the Cherry Blossoms"
TL Post: 104
Total post: 1558
Views: 139874
I doubt that the WAllies would use Atomic Bombs on the 2 cities because the Trinity test wasn't carried out until July 16th 1945, just 2 months after Germany surrenders OTL.
And being as that German cities are now available for gas attacks and some might be completely razed to the ground wouldn't it end the war a bit quicker?
it seem that Japan surrender sooner as the Third Reich in this TL.
and the Surrender of the Third Reich depends how long Hitler survived.
the Germans commit fighting until the Moment that Hitler killed himself on 30 April 1945.
after that Großadmiral Karl Dönitz was appointed as Hitler's successor, then 7 days later the Germans surrender on Mai 7, 1945
But in this TL Großadmiral Karl Dönitz killed himself on November 28, 1944
The Wehrmacht and SS use nerve gas also on 1944 East front, were Red Army is still on Poland territory
and there those wildcards: Herman Goring and Heinrich Himmler
with Goring now appointed as Hitler's successor !
seems that Fat man will fall after all on The Third Reich...
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