How Silent Fall the Cherry Blossoms
- Thread starter Geon
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Should Fat Man and Little Boy fall on the Reich, I think you could have a slightly different view of them post war. One of the images that (IMHO), has stuck in the mind and collective conscience is the view of Hiroshima showing a flat townscape, making it look potentially more destructive than it was. Against a brick and stone built town, the devistation may not look as bad.
Potentially, post war, this could lead to an underestimation of the effects and increase the possibility of WWIII.
Potentially, post war, this could lead to an underestimation of the effects and increase the possibility of WWIII.
that depends were the Atomic bomb is drop, Germany was full with towns with half-timbered houses. no match for 10 Kt atomic bomb air burst.
like the town of Weimar, Heidelberg, Munich or Frankfurt am Main, or what was left over after USAAF and Bomber Harris run riot.
after the detonation will only standing concrete air-raids bunkers.
The Impact of NOT dropping the Atomic Bomb on Japan will have fast consequence on it's Culture and Anime & Mangas!
no Godzilla, no Japanese superheroes like Son Goku, who destroy entire planets during hand to hand combats.
While In Germany will have very traumatic experience of use of Atomic Bomb on them.
With drastic impact on there Culture, Film, Novels and later on Comic and TV.
There will be allot of Novel, Movies, Theater-plays about the Role of National Socialism and it deathly atomic consequence.
like adaptation of Goethe's Faust were Faust get deal with Devil
and become a National Socialist and become irrevocably corrupted in end he die in Atomic explosion as modern version of Hell
also the argument "For crimes we commit against humanity, We deserved the Atomic bomb as punishment" will be common in Germany.
on Political level the Germans try to abolish the Atomic, Biological and Chemical weapon worldwide.
I don't see them having much pull on that matter, considering that they were the ones who started the WMD slinging in the first place.
yes and because of this they try to get rid of it,
and yes with ulterior motives, of if they gone they can't use then on Germans any more during WWIII...
yes and because of this they try to get rid of it,
and yes with ulterior motives, of if they gone they can't use then on Germans any more during WWIII...
No, what I said was the Germans would come off as being complete hypocrites on the matter (as well as a bit "butthurt").
Nuremburg and Linz are the two targets, Nuremburg as the "Home" of the Nazis and Linz as the hometown of Hitler. I suspect that Linz being a very culteral city and I suspect of older design will be the Hiroshima, (flattened), to Nuremburg's Nagasaki, more modern and less damaged. I suspect though that tbe target point for Nuremburg will be the Stadium. Symbolic and easily spotted from high altitude.
Not really - look at the current way the Germans support Israel. Provided they don't try to gloss over that they used it before the Allies did, I can actually see them having a fair bit of moral authority on the subject (far more than Japan did OTL, at least).
Did you just quote Workaholics in relation to atomic warfare? That's tight butthole right there
Geon
Donor
Christmas Eve in Brussels
Here is the situation in Brussels following the great air battle.
Geon
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Date: December 24, 1944
Location: Brussels, Belgium
Time: The Evening hours
While tank crews and mechanics huddled in ruined stores and other buildings and sang Christmas carols the two generals of 5th and 6th Panzer Armies met in a small chateau on the edge of the city to discuss their plans.
General Sepp Dietrich and Hasso von Mantueffel knew that the clock was now against them. They had watched the air battle and instinctively knew that the Allies would be back given a day or so to reorganize. The attack had been massive and several tanks damaged or destroyed but still the 5th and 6th Panzer Divisions were still formidable fighting forces. But they would not remain so for long once the Allies returned. The choice was then to stay in the city and force the Allies to come to them or continue on the planned offensive.
Word had come through that Patton had broken through General Brandenburger’s forces at Littlebruck. His army was retreating northward after having delayed Patton for two days. Patton’s Third Army was hurt but still ready to fight. If he closed on the southern flank of the front then Montgomery and Patton would have the Panzers in a pincer movement.
After some discussion a plan was hit upon. General von Mantueffel would swing his Panzers back south to attack Patton and hold him while General Dietrich would charge northwards to hit Montgomery and take Antwerp. They would use the cover of darkness to move while the bombers were gone. Once they were actively engaged with their respective enemies the bombers would have to be more careful in their attacks lest they hit their own troops.
The plan agreed upon, the two generals went to alert their respective sub-commanders of the plans and get the men to move that very evening. Even though it was Christmas Eve for the majority of the Allied and German soldiers it would definitely not be a “silent night.”
Here is the situation in Brussels following the great air battle.
Geon
-------------------------------------------------------------
Date: December 24, 1944
Location: Brussels, Belgium
Time: The Evening hours
While tank crews and mechanics huddled in ruined stores and other buildings and sang Christmas carols the two generals of 5th and 6th Panzer Armies met in a small chateau on the edge of the city to discuss their plans.
General Sepp Dietrich and Hasso von Mantueffel knew that the clock was now against them. They had watched the air battle and instinctively knew that the Allies would be back given a day or so to reorganize. The attack had been massive and several tanks damaged or destroyed but still the 5th and 6th Panzer Divisions were still formidable fighting forces. But they would not remain so for long once the Allies returned. The choice was then to stay in the city and force the Allies to come to them or continue on the planned offensive.
Word had come through that Patton had broken through General Brandenburger’s forces at Littlebruck. His army was retreating northward after having delayed Patton for two days. Patton’s Third Army was hurt but still ready to fight. If he closed on the southern flank of the front then Montgomery and Patton would have the Panzers in a pincer movement.
After some discussion a plan was hit upon. General von Mantueffel would swing his Panzers back south to attack Patton and hold him while General Dietrich would charge northwards to hit Montgomery and take Antwerp. They would use the cover of darkness to move while the bombers were gone. Once they were actively engaged with their respective enemies the bombers would have to be more careful in their attacks lest they hit their own troops.
The plan agreed upon, the two generals went to alert their respective sub-commanders of the plans and get the men to move that very evening. Even though it was Christmas Eve for the majority of the Allied and German soldiers it would definitely not be a “silent night.”
Geon
Donor
Christmas in LA
And here's a Christmas update from the city of Los Angeles.
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Date: December 25, 1944
Location: Los Angeles
Time: The morning hours
As Christmas morning dawned the citizens of Los Angeles flocked to places of worship throughout the city. The evening before the mayor had asked that on Christmas day the people of Los Angeles would gather in houses of worship throughout the city and give thanks to God for seeing them through the previous month. In a Christmas Eve address to the city by radio the mayor had said the following.
We may be humbly grateful to almighty God for all of his blessings over the last month even during the darkest days of the plague attack. Further on this date when we celebrate the birth of the Christ I believe we should also be celebrating a rebirth for our city. We are blessed to have so many who stood with us when things were dark and kept the lights burning when it seemed they were going to be snuffed out.
From Mayor Bowron’s Christmas Eve radio address; Christmas Eve 1944.
Now, on Christmas morning citizens flocked to local churches to hear their pastors and priests and rabbis (for this was not just a celebration of Christmas it was thanksgiving across all the faith traditions) offer prayer of thanksgiving for surviving the trials of the past month.
It was a sober celebration for many for by now the death toll now stood at 358 and there were still thousands afflicted with the disease in the various emergency hospital wards throughout the city.
In one of those wards a group of Hollywood actors and actresses gathered to form what would be called the First Hollywood Christmas Choir. There were 30 of them from different studios and of varying singing talents but all determined to bring some cheer here as many of them already had overseas. The songs they sang raised many spirits among recovering patients throughout the ward and the city as the concert was broadcast over the radio as well.
Thus started a tradition that would last for years to come, every Christmas day, regardless of what studio they worked for or what singing ability they had, regardless of race, color, or creed Hollywood stars would gather on Christmas morning to sing carols to their city.
And here's a Christmas update from the city of Los Angeles.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Date: December 25, 1944
Location: Los Angeles
Time: The morning hours
As Christmas morning dawned the citizens of Los Angeles flocked to places of worship throughout the city. The evening before the mayor had asked that on Christmas day the people of Los Angeles would gather in houses of worship throughout the city and give thanks to God for seeing them through the previous month. In a Christmas Eve address to the city by radio the mayor had said the following.
We may be humbly grateful to almighty God for all of his blessings over the last month even during the darkest days of the plague attack. Further on this date when we celebrate the birth of the Christ I believe we should also be celebrating a rebirth for our city. We are blessed to have so many who stood with us when things were dark and kept the lights burning when it seemed they were going to be snuffed out.
From Mayor Bowron’s Christmas Eve radio address; Christmas Eve 1944.
Now, on Christmas morning citizens flocked to local churches to hear their pastors and priests and rabbis (for this was not just a celebration of Christmas it was thanksgiving across all the faith traditions) offer prayer of thanksgiving for surviving the trials of the past month.
It was a sober celebration for many for by now the death toll now stood at 358 and there were still thousands afflicted with the disease in the various emergency hospital wards throughout the city.
In one of those wards a group of Hollywood actors and actresses gathered to form what would be called the First Hollywood Christmas Choir. There were 30 of them from different studios and of varying singing talents but all determined to bring some cheer here as many of them already had overseas. The songs they sang raised many spirits among recovering patients throughout the ward and the city as the concert was broadcast over the radio as well.
Thus started a tradition that would last for years to come, every Christmas day, regardless of what studio they worked for or what singing ability they had, regardless of race, color, or creed Hollywood stars would gather on Christmas morning to sing carols to their city.
Hello
First of all congratulation for your timeline, quite scary but very interesting and emotional.
I'm eagerly waiting for Nordwind Operation to know what you have prepare to my birth region.
Congratulation
First of all congratulation for your timeline, quite scary but very interesting and emotional.
I'm eagerly waiting for Nordwind Operation to know what you have prepare to my birth region.
Congratulation
Geon
Donor
The Nordwind Operation probably won't happen as planned [spoiler alert!]. The reason being that the Germans put a lot more effort and into Watch on the Rhine and Trojan Victory. Thus there is hardly anything in the way of materials left for another push. Hitler is going to be seriously rethinking his Western strategy after the close of the Ardennes Offensive.
Geon
P.S. Welcome to the board!
Derek Pullem
Donor
Splitting the forces like that is a tough call - I can see Hitler screaming at them to pulverise Monty and tbh there is some merit in that. Leave the AT and the less mobile infantry to defend the choke points and use all the panzers to the North.
But reorganising two armies in a day is easier said than done and it's an all or nothing gamble. This way you would think they have a chance of extricating some of their forces if (when) the operation fails - only that depends on how badly the allied tac air has been attrited.
But reorganising two armies in a day is easier said than done and it's an all or nothing gamble. This way you would think they have a chance of extricating some of their forces if (when) the operation fails - only that depends on how badly the allied tac air has been attrited.
While I have no doubt that the allies would gleefully use atomic weapons against Germany I do not think it would be realistic to assume much if any earlier availability of atomic weapons. We will have to see where this timeline goes but at the moment I would predict that Germany falls before August, 1945.
Geon
Donor
On the Vistula
And on the Vistula...
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Date: December 25, 1944
Location: East bank of the Vistula River
Time: Daylight hours
In his headquarters Marshall Zhukov was looking up at the same logistics officer he had shouted at a few days ago. “Congratulations comrade, you have managed to get the chemical protection equipment we needed moving and distributed. For your efforts you will not be shot, Dismissed!” Zhukov knew he had been brutal but the facts were equally brutal. The delay in getting the gas masks and other chemical warfare equipment forward had meant major casualties in all sectors of his army. His division commanders needed time to repair the damage in their ranks. Thus Zhukov had ordered withdrawals of up to 5 to 10 miles from the Vistula in order to reorganize those formations damaged by the chemical attacks.
The problem had been the unwillingness of many of the chemical warfare groups that had accompanied the Red Army to release the equipment without “proper authorization.” It had taken a direct order from STAVKA as well as the shooting of at least two or three of the more reticent officers stationed in the chemical units to get the masks properly distributed. Oh how Zhukov despised the bureaucracy bred of the current government in Moscow! He considered himself a loyal soldier of the Motherland, but more and more he was starting to wonder whether loyalty to the Motherland was the same as loyalty to government that cared more for its own bureaucrats then it did for the soldiers that protected the nation!
In addition the 50 divisions were continuing their move eastward. Many divisions would have to be shifted around to cover the areas formerly occupied by the departing troops. The reorganization and redistribution meant a brief tactical withdrawal, one Zhukov well know Stalin would not be happy with. Stalin would be equally unhappy to learn that Zhukov would need to postpone the opening of the spring offensive to take Berlin by several weeks in order to recover from the devastation caused by the chemical bombardment.
If all went well the Russians would be moving back toward the Vistula in another week. This time however their artillery would have its own mustard gas shells ready to lob at the German lines. Two could play that game and Zhukov always played to win!
And on the Vistula...
------------------------------
Date: December 25, 1944
Location: East bank of the Vistula River
Time: Daylight hours
In his headquarters Marshall Zhukov was looking up at the same logistics officer he had shouted at a few days ago. “Congratulations comrade, you have managed to get the chemical protection equipment we needed moving and distributed. For your efforts you will not be shot, Dismissed!” Zhukov knew he had been brutal but the facts were equally brutal. The delay in getting the gas masks and other chemical warfare equipment forward had meant major casualties in all sectors of his army. His division commanders needed time to repair the damage in their ranks. Thus Zhukov had ordered withdrawals of up to 5 to 10 miles from the Vistula in order to reorganize those formations damaged by the chemical attacks.
The problem had been the unwillingness of many of the chemical warfare groups that had accompanied the Red Army to release the equipment without “proper authorization.” It had taken a direct order from STAVKA as well as the shooting of at least two or three of the more reticent officers stationed in the chemical units to get the masks properly distributed. Oh how Zhukov despised the bureaucracy bred of the current government in Moscow! He considered himself a loyal soldier of the Motherland, but more and more he was starting to wonder whether loyalty to the Motherland was the same as loyalty to government that cared more for its own bureaucrats then it did for the soldiers that protected the nation!
In addition the 50 divisions were continuing their move eastward. Many divisions would have to be shifted around to cover the areas formerly occupied by the departing troops. The reorganization and redistribution meant a brief tactical withdrawal, one Zhukov well know Stalin would not be happy with. Stalin would be equally unhappy to learn that Zhukov would need to postpone the opening of the spring offensive to take Berlin by several weeks in order to recover from the devastation caused by the chemical bombardment.
If all went well the Russians would be moving back toward the Vistula in another week. This time however their artillery would have its own mustard gas shells ready to lob at the German lines. Two could play that game and Zhukov always played to win!
Garrison
Donor
Yeah at this point they are hoping for a miracle at Antwerp and failing that a chance of saving something for later. On another topic once the Allies start dropping mustard gas on German cities it isn't going to take long for the Germans to realize that the Allies don't have the sophisticated nerve agents that they possess.
not sophisticated ?
they will drop HL Mustard Gas– in begin of 1945
A blend of distilled mustard HD and Lewisite L, originally intended for use in winter conditions due to its lower freezing point.
Or Mustard T- mixture of 60% sulfur mustard (HD) and 40% T (bis[2-(2-chloroethylthio)ethyl] ether), a related vesicant with lower freezing point, lower volatility.
The British had stored thousands of tons of Mustard gas "Pyro" (manufacture by US as mustard HD).
around 10000 tons were stored in Australia, i think here came the stuff used for Operation Cartago on Japan
This is not war, this is carnage !
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