how long could HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Duke of Edinburgh lasted

[Riain]

I can imagine the conversation.

• Minister, we need a class of helicopter cruisers.
• What for Admiral?
• To provide ASW escort the new carriers, Minister.
• But Admiral, don't these new carriers carry ASW helicopters?
• Yes Minster, they do.
• And you want me to fund 2 or 3 hundred-million-pound ships to carry more? Um, no, squeeze more helicopters onto your new carriers.

I think at least 4 T82s would get built, but certainly not 8, and maybe 8 T42s. The big difference is that the T82s have a range of 5750nm @ 18kt whereas the T42 could only do 4200nm @ 14kt, which would make a hell of a real-world difference when escorting a big carrier. The T82 would also carry a big 3D radar, whereas the T42 would only carry the 2D Type 1022, which is a development of the Dutch LW08.

 

[Ato]

No way the planned 'Invincible' cruisers would have been built, barring a major improvement in the UK's finances, IMO. They're easy cuts for the Treasury - 'you've got 2/3 55,000t aircraft carriers, why do you need helicopter carriers too?' It might not make sense militarily but it does to people who think of everything in pounds, shillings and pennies.

Not sure about the 82s though - if the RN isn't going over to being a pure ASW force as planned they make sense as escorts for proper carrier groups but the Treasury might fight to force them into taking the T42s instead.

I could see them building maybe half of the Type 82 run, and then building a cheaper, smaller ship akin to the OTL Type 42 to fill out the rest of the fleet. Perhaps four Type 82 and maybe six to eight Type 42s.

When the NFR-90 program collaspes in the 80s We might see a further two improved Type 82s (Type 83s perhaps) commisioned in the early 90s, as a way of keeping British shipayrds open. Akin to the OTL Type 43 proposal they would feature twin Sea Dart launchers and a Seawolf mount.

 

[Deleted member 94680]

I would imagine, once built, the QEs would be jet carriers for most of their life, with a period of helicopter carrier ASW when finances were tight. There would be no money for any “through deck cruisers” whilst they were in service and even Type 82s are (IMO) unlikely given budget constraints of the time.

An “improved 42” as a class of carrier escorts is a fair chance, with a proto-82 design as a bargaining chip to work down from being the trick to get them approved.

 

[steamboy]

Hopefully the RN wouldn't waste money trying to convert the Tiger and Blake into Helicruisers and put the money somewhere else.

 

[Mist]

tbh if the Invincibles get the Axe in exchange for getting the carriers, i can see them redesigning the Type 82s as DDHs with a hanger and flight deck for a pair of seakings.

 

[Deleted member 94680]

tbh if the Invincibles get the Axe in exchange for getting the carriers, i can see them redesigning the Type 82s as DDHs with a hanger and flight deck for a pair of seakings.

That’s a definite possibility.

Whatever the specifics, the Royal Navy is going to be built around the carriers (and independent nuclear deterrent subs) for at least half a decade.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

The Fort Victoria ships were originally going to be built with a VLS Seawolf system (Google fu = 32 cell Sea Wolf VLS "Fitted for, but not with")

But the lessons from the Falklands ensured that the Type 23 Frigates were less austier and became true multi role ASW Frigates and the idea that the Fort Victoria's would act as the center of a convoy group and use its Sea Wolf system to defend the convoy and the escorts was no longer a requirement and the VLS system was dropped and the order was reduced from 6 to 2 (and nearly 1 when the IRA nearly sunk Fort Victoria)

So how about in a world were the two carriers exist all 6 Forts get built - to act as both supply ship for the carriers and as the core of an ASW group and has the ability to operate 3 or more Large Helicopters as well as maintenance facilities for said ASW group

They could also have both VLS Seawolf and VLS Sea Dart while acting as a limited Helicopter carrier for ASW Escort groups - this would fill the gap that having 2 larger carriers would leave without a 3rd deck (as in the case of the 3 Invincible class - one always in commission 1 in reserve/working up 1 in refit) - allowing the RN to conduct smaller ops such as the Armilla patrol and other shenanigans in the middle east and also allowing the ship to self escort into areas of 'danger' as well as being an extra layer to the carriers defence.

 

[Riain]

Hopefully the RN wouldn't waste money trying to convert the Tiger and Blake into Helicruisers and put the money somewhere else.

I think at the very least the expensive and time consuming Blake conversion should act as a deterrent to converting the Tiger, freeing up some 13 million pounds for CVA 01. The Eagle getting Phantoms rather than the Ark would save another 28 million pounds for CVA 01, although the scheduling of Phantom deliveries might be a bit complicated as there will be 3 squadrons of Phantoms available from 1969 but only 1 ship to put them on until 1973.

tbh if the Invincibles get the Axe in exchange for getting the carriers, i can see them redesigning the Type 82s as DDHs with a hanger and flight deck for a pair of seakings.

I don't think so given the genesis of the Invincibles. I don't have the source to hand, but the I's were to serve a dual role as big ASW escorts for the Strike Fleet and flagships for distant stations. By 1972 the RN had reorganised away from the 'stations' concept to the 'flotillas' concept she kept until 2002, and the Tiger and Blake were the flagships of Flotillas 1 and 2 and the Counties and Bristol were split into flotillas 1 and 2 to act as leaders of escort/frigate/destroyer squadrons. With the cancellation of the CVAs by the time the I's came into service the flotillas 1 and 2 had relinquished their command cruisers and went into flotilla 3 which was renamed from flotilla Carriers Amphibious Ships in 1979, the 'leader' role in flotillas 1 and 2 still being undertaken by the Counties and Bristol for several years later.

Given that the command helicopter cruiser wasn't as far progressed along the design path by 1966 as the CVA and T82 I think it would fall victim to the organisational changes within the RN combined with the political changes arising from the redeployment back to NATO in Europe. By the time this occured the T82s would be well advanced in their construction.