IIRC there were several proposals before WW2 by the UK/League of Nations to partition Palestine into a separate Jewish/Muslim state. Would this ever happen without WW2 and the horrors of the holocaust? And if this did happen, could this lead to an even bigger more prosperous Israel with all the millions of extra jews who would exist in this TL?
How does the situation in Israel/Palestine play out with no WW2/Holocaust?
- Thread starter sirjackalot
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Without the exodus of Jews from Nazi Germany in the 1930's, it's entirely possible that the Jewish population of the British Mandate of Palestine would not have expanded so fast or so much. Then, after WW2, without the deterimination of the survivors of the Holocaust plus sympathy for the plight of the Jews in general, Israel might never have been founded, or, if founded, might not have survived the initial attacks by it's neighbours ...
Because Europe was not a good place to live in, even before the war. Every country east of France was an anti-Semitic dictatorship, and even France wasn't that good in that regard.. Without the war you don't have anti-Semitism discredited and Jews will want to move to a country of their own.
Sure there was hate and sometimes pogroms against jews in the european history, yet just a few decided to live for good, and many of them to US not in the deserts of Middle East. Wich is that antisemitic dictatorship at the East of France outside of Germany for sure, that you are talking about? Mussolini isn't antisemitic at all, hell a lot of the italian fascist party members are jews. Admiral Horty regent of Hungary isn't, king Carol lI of Romanya isn't, he even had a jewish mistress, King Boris of Bulgaria isn't. Maybe Poland a little and other countries I have no idea.
Bulgaria, Romania, Poland and Lithuania were all very antisemitic, and Hungary wasn't a fun place either.
Zionism was on the rise all across Europe, so you have a much greater pool of settlers. 10% of seven million is still greater then 90% of 600,000....
Depending on the specifics, either same or better in the west. For the Arab World worse for self-explanatory reasons.
Well, that basically presupposed either the Nazis not taking power or the Nazis being taken out early.
Probably either no Israel or a very small Israel. The Zionist movement is probably smaller and less successful. America absorbs more Jewish immigrants, it's just flat-out more attractive as a destination from every economic POV.
So you're looking at a small Israel that's dependent on the goodwill of Britain because it was likely established in large part by British-run population transfers. Not super sustainable, and it's not going to do so well as decolonization escalates. However, Arab opposition will be much less broad-spectrum (Palestinian opposition will be fierce but this Israel will be much less of a broad-scale hate sink for Arab nationalists).
Probably either no Israel or a very small Israel. The Zionist movement is probably smaller and less successful. America absorbs more Jewish immigrants, it's just flat-out more attractive as a destination from every economic POV.
So you're looking at a small Israel that's dependent on the goodwill of Britain because it was likely established in large part by British-run population transfers. Not super sustainable, and it's not going to do so well as decolonization escalates. However, Arab opposition will be much less broad-spectrum (Palestinian opposition will be fierce but this Israel will be much less of a broad-scale hate sink for Arab nationalists).
HistoricalArthropod
Banned
Mandate of palestine probably becomes independent as a levantine arab state like Syria, Jordan and Lebanon. It happens to have an 11% Jewish population, but zionism remains a fringe movement among jews.
Otl, the existence of Israel has resulted in a consolidation of global jewry into a single nation state. Many countries had their entire Jewish populations relocate to Israel. In Israel, many of these various groups gradually cast off their diasporic identity and merge into an Israel Jewish identity.
Without ww2 or the holocaust, this would not happen. Ethiopian jews stay in Ethiopia, Indian jews in India, Soviet jews in the USSR, etc.
Otl, the existence of Israel has resulted in a consolidation of global jewry into a single nation state. Many countries had their entire Jewish populations relocate to Israel. In Israel, many of these various groups gradually cast off their diasporic identity and merge into an Israel Jewish identity.
Without ww2 or the holocaust, this would not happen. Ethiopian jews stay in Ethiopia, Indian jews in India, Soviet jews in the USSR, etc.
Because Jews were treated like dirt in most parts of Central, and Eastern Europe. The Zionist movement was also strong among American Jews. On a more general note throughout history people have left relatively comfortable lives to become pioneers, in a "Wilderness". Just look at the settlement of the Americas, or Australia. And don't forget the job security the Hebrews gave up in the Land of Goshen to follow Moses to the Promised Land.
Prior to the expulsion of the Ottoman's my understanding is that the Jews were not allowed to own land. I am happy to have this thought changed if evidence can be found to support it. The removal of the Ottomans saw the British Empire promise both the Arabs and the Jews things that if either one got given what was promised the result would be hatred from the other. This was kind of not unusual as far as the British Empire goes. In the aftermath of WW1 the British took over what is now Jordan, Israel and the Palestine territories and allowed emigration and tried to control this emigration to keep some kind of balance going on. As a result both Jewish and Arab leaders felt the other was being supported and this led to both sides forming military groups that carried out attacks that today would be called terrorism. The fact that the Jewish people got badly treated in the European countries was enough of a reason to emigrate and led directly to the US Jewish population and an increasing number of people willing to go to the middle east. The Soviet Union was no friend to the Jews present their and pogroms are hardly unusual.
No WW2 or more importantly no holocaust would not stop the desire of the Jewish people to have a home country that did not have the ability to steal all their possession's or livelihood. The only factor the holocaust created was a feeling of supporting the Jewish Homeland, some of the reasoning for this support was as much a desire to show sympathy to the plight of people whose world population dropped by so much. The fact a prominent Arab leader (mufti of Jerusalem) supported the NAZI's did not help. I still think it was possible for the Arab and Jewish people to form a country without the British Empire causing some of the problems by refusing to honour the promises made and more to the point promising the same thing to both parties.
en.wikipedia.org
en.wikipedia.org
en.wikipedia.org
the three wiki pages shown all form a part of what I have said.
No WW2 or more importantly no holocaust would not stop the desire of the Jewish people to have a home country that did not have the ability to steal all their possession's or livelihood. The only factor the holocaust created was a feeling of supporting the Jewish Homeland, some of the reasoning for this support was as much a desire to show sympathy to the plight of people whose world population dropped by so much. The fact a prominent Arab leader (mufti of Jerusalem) supported the NAZI's did not help. I still think it was possible for the Arab and Jewish people to form a country without the British Empire causing some of the problems by refusing to honour the promises made and more to the point promising the same thing to both parties.
McMahon–Hussein Correspondence - Wikipedia
Balfour Declaration - Wikipedia
Sykes–Picot Agreement - Wikipedia
the three wiki pages shown all form a part of what I have said.
That might be what some would want, but I doubt it would work out that way. By 1939 there were over 430,000 Jews in Palestine, making up about 30% of the population. Zionism was hardly a fringe movement in the 30's, and 40's. Without WWII the British Mandate last at least a decade longer, resulting in an extended Arab Revolt, and continued Zionist growth, and militarization. Countries were emptied out of Jews from 1939 on from geocide, oppression, and mass expulsions by Arab States. Numbers of Soviet Jews were allowed to emigrate because of American pressure, and they flooded out after the fall of the Soviet Union. I don't know anything about the history of Indian Jews, or why they emigrated.
By 1939 the dream of a multi ethnic, peaceful Union in Palestine was pretty much dead. Just too much blood had been spilled. Militants had taken control on both sides. Without WWII the dynamic would be different, then in the OTL, but the British would be hard pressed by both sides, and would probable become increasingly more accommodating to the Arabs. As they found that the Arabs would become more violent anyway it's hard to say what the British would do.Prior to the expulsion of the Ottoman's my understanding is that the Jews were not allowed to own land. I am happy to have this thought changed if evidence can be found to support it. The removal of the Ottomans saw the British Empire promise both the Arabs and the Jews things that if either one got given what was promised the result would be hatred from the other. This was kind of not unusual as far as the British Empire goes. In the aftermath of WW1 the British took over what is now Jordan, Israel and the Palestine territories and allowed emigration and tried to control this emigration to keep some kind of balance going on. As a result both Jewish and Arab leaders felt the other was being supported and this led to both sides forming military groups that carried out attacks that today would be called terrorism. The fact that the Jewish people got badly treated in the European countries was enough of a reason to emigrate and led directly to the US Jewish population and an increasing number of people willing to go to the middle east. The Soviet Union was no friend to the Jews present their and pogroms are hardly unusual.
No WW2 or more importantly no holocaust would not stop the desire of the Jewish people to have a home country that did not have the ability to steal all their possession's or livelihood. The only factor the holocaust created was a feeling of supporting the Jewish Homeland, some of the reasoning for this support was as much a desire to show sympathy to the plight of people whose world population dropped by so much. The fact a prominent Arab leader (mufti of Jerusalem) supported the NAZI's did not help. I still think it was possible for the Arab and Jewish people to form a country without the British Empire causing some of the problems by refusing to honour the promises made and more to the point promising the same thing to both parties.
McMahon–Hussein Correspondence - Wikipedia
Balfour Declaration - Wikipedia
Sykes–Picot Agreement - Wikipedia
the three wiki pages shown all form a part of what I have said.
The POD for a multi-ethnic Israel or Palestine would require a WW1 POD. It is hardly an accident that the British managed to install the house of Sauds as rulers when the monarch failed to do what they wanted. The British Empire did what every other Empire in history did, they played one group off against another until they could organise to fight. The current Middle East has much for the British Empire to answer for.