Henry's disapproval of sister Margaret came after she pleaded for annulment of her marriage to the Earl of Angus. (It was okay for a guy to ask for an annulment, but a woman should know her place...?) That was (OTL) 1527 - when it was granted. So, it's still possible that Mary will become the heiress since Henry has no offspring on either side of the blanket.
Henry VIII dies childless
- Thread starter My Username is Inigo Montoya
- Start date
When would H8 lost any hope for kids (if he ever would-even two or three childless marriages could be not enough)? Perhaps his second marriage would end with annulment too?
I think that’s a bit too deterministic to be honest. Protestantism was making headway in England even before Henry declared himself head of the church. I don’t think the premise of an evangelical England is completely dependent on the marital troubles of Henry VIII.
I was talking about that precise timeframe. No way in the hell who England will became Protestant, and most important with a conversion of its ruler without Henry’s marital troubles. OTL Henry in the end was simply a Catholic who refuted to recognize the superiority of the Pope until the end of his days while both his sisters Mary Brandon and Margaret of Scotland were Catholics. In OTL both England and Scotland in the end became Protestants only because Elizabeth Tudor had taken the English Crown after Mary and had reinstated the Anglican Church of her father and brother. If Mary Tudor has a child, or Elizabeth had already married a Catholic prince before Mary’s death or Mary Stewart was not married to the King of France or one of his closest relatives and so became Queen of England after Mary Tudor’s death then OTL England would be remained Catholic...
Why? True the Tudor rose was red and white (still more red than white) but Henry VII had presented himself as heir of the red rose of Lancaster...
A white rose would have been worse (but still the only reall6 bad thing would be associating the Lancaster with the white rose or the York’s with the white)
My point is that reformist sentiment was present in England despite Henry VIII's essentially doctrinal alignment with Rome (indeed religious reform movements have had a long history on the British Isles). The great number of Evangelicals present in OTL around the time of Anne Boleyn's ascendancy did not just form their convictions because Henry wanted a divorce. In other words, there is a structural development present which could pave the way for some kind of English Reformation at some point. Mind you, I'm not arguing that this the most plausible outcome only that it is not a given historical non-starter in a case where Henry VIII does not father any children.
"I love the Rose both Red and White
Is that your pure perfect appetite?
To hear talk of them is my delight,
Joyed may we be
Our Prince to see
In Roses three"
The whole point of the Tudor Rose was to merge the claims of the houses of York and Lancaster. Henry VII did indeed derive his right to rule from the Lancastrian clan, but the marriage to Elizabeth of York was equally important in strengthening his control over England. I think that's what @Jimbo808 was getting at.
The existence of male impotence and infertility was well-known, so people would be quite able to blame Henry for his inability to sire an heir. Maybe not in England, but that would be because of the potential for having to make an unplanned visit to the Tower, not because religious dogma held that it was always the woman's fault if a marriage was sterile.
Sure, reformist were present in England but without Henry VIII’s marital troubles is pretty unlikely if not impossible who they will take power in either England or Scotland... The more optimistic scenario see the English and Scottish “Protestants” like the French Huguenot or the English Catholics after Elizabeth (so powerful but never in power)
A clear-cut Lutheran England would make a fascinating timeline, IDK if anyone on here has tried it before...
In fact I expect his enemies abroad to actively spread the rumour that he is impotent. Even if it's nothing but slander, I feel they'll manage to get under Henry's skin. He never was the most mentally stable of people...
Another suggestion I wanted to throw out there: Henry's life might be dramatically shortened compared to OTL if, in desperation, he turns to potions concocted by alchemists to cure his infertility. Most of those were just poisons, by modern standards.
Well it would all depend on who takes power once Henry croaks, however, I still think you’re taking a far too deterministic view on things. Granted, the English reformation was a very drawn out process with a lot of back and forth, but the underlying structures were there - regardless of the Henrician Great Matter.
Also, and this is slightly off-topic, but you keep bringing it up: how’s Henry not farthering any children butterflying away the Scottish reformation?
Because without Elizabeth’s support is pretty unlikely who the Scottish Protestants will be able to take and keep the power there... If the Catholic James (V) Stuart inhereit both Scotland and England is pretty unlikely who either country will become officially Protestant (and a Protestant/reformist minority will be much likely crushed earlier or later). If a Catholic Earl of Lincoln became King of England Protestants/Reformist will also not have any support by either King...
I'll give you male impotence being well-known; but I don't recall infertility among men being "well known" doctors/surgeons of the time might write something about it, but it's not going to circulated to the general population. In the 17th century, handbills on how to 'fix' the matter were circulated. And who is going to tell the King he's not fertile, when he can "rise" to the occasion, has emissions and is King by the Grace of God? Yes, men were infertile, but it was a subject not for general discussion and certainly not imagined against the King (I should think, given H8's ego and temper, at some point saying the King is infertile/unable will be deemed in law to be treasonous). OTL, it was believed George Boleyn might have talked himself out of an ugly death on a most likely trumped up charge had he not spoken the words handed him on a paper alleging just that. Once he said the king was incapable, he was the headsman's treat.
I think the latter would be what was feared by those who might think it: that it would be construed as treason, because it slandered the King (or libeled him, if it were a handbill). Remember, the older Henry got, the more things became treason when none was intended.
Only if Henry marries an extreme chance-taking wife. Queens were accompanied all the time by their ladies to ensure just this thing (okay, it was also a sign of power - I can afford to have someone hold my dress up whilst I piss). It's why OTL, imho, Cromwell decided that the way to infuriate a King already tired of his less-than submissive wife (whose feistiness he admired before the marriage): by lining up a list of boytoys (including a low-born musician and her brother), driving him into a solution that solved Cromwell's problem (dispute with Anne about the dissolved monastic lands - she wanted charity and education, he wanted to use them to bribe the nobility and aristocracy). And if Henry does marry another foreign princess, odds are she's been brought up to the same standards of Katherine of Aragon - she's not going to dishonor her family by chancing that a bunch of English women who wait on her aren't going to tattle. If she's caught, she'll be this TL's Anne Boleyn, only actually guilty of the charges.
This is realistic take on the situation - and probably from a concoction he made himself. (He did that, OTL. He had made one for the Sweat.)
There'd be rumours. If the child does not resemble Henry, those rumours might swell into an open rebellion against "FitzQueen" eventually. James II got deposed over much more flimsier accusations.
Absolutely possible. H8 was very big into creating all sorts of nostrums and potions and salves; making them for himself and for friends. It was all just another part of his Renaissance Prince being an expert on every topic self image. Which, to be honest, he was pretty effective in meeting many ways. So he knew a lot (for the time) about this stuff. Thus, I don't think he would poison himself (other than a little homeopathic remedy attempts). But maybe as he gets older and more desperate he might get more and more exotic and risk taking with what brews he takes.