Henry VIII dies childless

[My Username is Inigo Montoya]

There's a very old thread (I think about a decade ago) about this, but I thought I'd try to generate some more discussion.
So, what if Henry VIII is sterile? How many wives (' necks) does he go through over the course of his reign? Would he be succeeded by an heir of his choice or end up being overthrown? Is there any circumstance in which he might accept a de la Pole as his heir or is that beyond the pale?

 

[Lalli]

Probably very messy War of English Succession.

 

[VVD0D95]

When’s he die and is james V still alive?

 

[My Username is Inigo Montoya]

When’s he die and is james V still alive?

For simplicity's sake, let's say he dies at the same age as OTL of natural causes, unless he's slain earlier due to a plot or revolt that didn't happen IOTL.

Edited to add: the Battle of Solway Moss likely doesn't happen ITTL, so James could live longer.

 

[VVD0D95]

For simplicity's sake, let's say he dies at the same age as OTL of natural causes, unless he's slain earlier due to a plot or revolt that didn't happen IOTL.

Alrighty then his heir by law is either mary queen of Scots or her father if he’s alive. Or if he does t want that then an act of parliament is likely passed to name his sister Mary’s descendants as his heirs

 

[isabella]

There's a very old thread (I think about a decade ago) about this, but I thought I'd try to generate some more discussion.
So, what if Henry VIII is sterile? How many wives (' necks) does he go through over the course of his reign? Would he be succeeded by an heir of his choice or end up being overthrown? Is there any circumstance in which he might accept a de la Pole as his heir or is that beyond the pale?

Henry’s heir will have Tudor blood so a descendant of either of his sisters: James V of Scotland is the most likely, but if Henry is totally against him then a child of Mary, Duchess of Suffolk

 

[Tyler96]

Is there any circumstance in which he might accept a de la Pole as his heir or is that beyond the pale?

Highly doubtful- the de la Poles have been out of favour since 1501ish (Edmund executed in 1513, Richard died fighting for the French in 1525, William died in the Tower after ~38 years imprisonment in 1539). Even if one of them is still floating about by the time of Henry's death I don't think they'd swing much support in England (especially when there's already plentiful claimants among the Stewarts, Brandons, Courtenays and Poles).

Alrighty then his heir by law is either mary queen of Scots or her father if he’s alive. Or if he does t want that then an act of parliament is likely passed to name his sister Mary’s descendants as his heirs

Henry’s heir will have Tudor blood so a descendant of either of his sisters: James V of Scotland is the most likely, but if Henry is totally against him then a child of Mary, Duchess of Suffolk

If the Scots are still Catholic would the Protestants try and rally around someone like Frances Brandon?

 

[isabella]

If the Scots are still Catholic would the Protestants try and rally around someone like Frances Brandon?

Explain me for what reason you think who England will be Protestant in this scenario...
England will NEVER became Protestant here as a childless Henry will either stay married to Katherine (as he will not think who is Katherine’s fault if he has no son) or Katherine will not fight the annulment.
Henry will marry not more than three times here and with time will be persuaded to name an heir who will be either James V of Scotland or Mary and Brandon’s son. If Henry’s relationship with Katherine and Karl V are good is pretty likely who Henry’s heir presuntive will marry Christina of Denmark or Maria of Viseu (if the heir is the younger Henry Brandon born in 1523 then also Anna of Austria is a viable candidate) while France can offer the princesses Madeleine and Marguerite (or some junior princesses like Marie de Bourbon, Marie de Guise, Anne de Lorraine)

 

[High Plains Drifter]

So no Henry Fitzroy either.

Boy, HVIII is gonna be an even bigger psychological mess than OTL ... and that is saying something!

 

[My Username is Inigo Montoya]

Highly doubtful- the de la Poles have been out of favour since 1501ish (Edmund executed in 1513, Richard died fighting for the French in 1525, William died in the Tower after ~38 years imprisonment in 1539). Even if one of them is still floating about by the time of Henry's death I don't think they'd swing much support in England (especially when there's already plentiful claimants among the Stewarts, Brandons, Courtenays and Poles).

Thank you for your reply; that's more-or-less what I suspected. My only quibble is that Richard's de la Pole's death is likely butterflied away, at least the details of how it happened.

If the Scots are still Catholic would the Protestants try and rally around someone like Frances Brandon?

Charles Brandon's marriage would be met with even more suspicion here, given Mary's place in the line of succession...

 

[Fabius Maximus]

Explain me for what reason you think who England will be Protestant in this scenario...
England will NEVER became Protestant here as a childless Henry will either stay married to Katherine (as he will not think who is Katherine’s fault if he has no son) or Katherine will not fight the annulment.
Henry will marry not more than three times here and with time will be persuaded to name an heir who will be either James V of Scotland or Mary and Brandon’s son. If Henry’s relationship with Katherine and Karl V are good is pretty likely who Henry’s heir presuntive will marry Christina of Denmark or Maria of Viseu (if the heir is the younger Henry Brandon born in 1523 then also Anna of Austria is a viable candidate) while France can offer the princesses Madeleine and Marguerite (or some junior princesses like Marie de Bourbon, Marie de Guise, Anne de Lorraine)

Actually, that's a good point -- infertility was grounds for an annulment, I think, so it would probably be granted, obviating any reason Henry has to go Protestant.

I guess he might actually end up going through fewer wives ITTL, if only because each new wife he fails to father a child on makes his infertility even more obvious.

 

[BlueFlowwer]

If his marriage to Catherine had resulted in no pregnancy until 1518 atleast, would Henry have a easier time to get a anullment?

 

[isabella]

If his marriage to Catherine had resulted in no pregnancy until 1518 atleast, would Henry have a easier time to get a anullment?

Absolutely... Katherine will not have any support in her fight but is likely she will also be without valid reasons for fighting against the annulment

 

[Tyler96]

Thank you for your reply; that's more-or-less what I suspected. My only quibble is that Richard's de la Pole's death is likely butterflied away, at least the details of how it happened.

I mean, he'd still be soldiering for the French king, which isn't exactly a risk-free lifestyle. And he was in his 40s anyway, so mightn't necessarily have long to live (his father died at 49).

 

[desmirelle]

If H8 is sterile, the idea that his union with Katherine is not 'blessed by God' will come sooner, Anne Boleyn probably won't even be in the country when the annulment occurs. Katherine will be a martyr for love and retire to a Spanish Convent (nunnery back then) to graciously allow Henry to have the next fertile foreign princess to wife. Probably between 1515-1520: my guess would be sooner, rather than later.

 

[RobinP]

What if, once it becomes clear that it’s Henry’s fault that they don’t have kids, Catherine becomes eligible again. She could get married and have kids.

 

[dcontreras]

What if, once it becomes clear that it’s Henry’s fault that they don’t have kids, Catherine becomes eligible again. She could get married and have kids.

But it would have no impact on the English Succession. That would still go through Henry's sister and the Scottish crown. If Katherine had not already done so, it may affect the Spanish Succession.

 

[VVD0D95]

But it would have no impact on the English Succession. That would still go through Henry's sister and the Scottish crown. If Katherine had not already done so, it may affect the Spanish Succession.

Unless of course Henry has passed an act of Parliament to give the weight of succession to his other sister Mary

 

[desmirelle]

This is the 16th century. What they know about genetics you can put in your eye and not even blink. Plus, NO ONE is going say out loud that the king is the problem. The foreigners might say it on the continent, but that's not going to be until the second wife's pregnancies are no-shows.

 

[desmirelle]

Katherine of Aragon will not become eligible again. She'll be beyond menopause when Queen La-La, formerly Princess of Wherever, is determined to not be a brood mare either. Back then, it was always the woman - daughter of Eve, who brought sin into the world per RC Church - who was at fault when the babies failed to show, died in miscarriage, stillbirth, whatever. Now, there might be a few whispers about why does God fail to allow H8 to have children (even by mistresses); but this will probably be the debate after H8's death. With Henry's temper, no one dared to say it to his face.

On the bright side, Katherine of Aragon will be in Spain when her sister Juana becomes ruler, might be harder to imprisoner KoA's sister with Katherine on her side. OTL tells us she's a fighter if she thinks she right.