Flower O'Scotland

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by VVD0D95, Nov 29, 2018.

  1. Threadmarks: Chapter 83: Jane's Great Plan

    VVD0D95 Lemmy is God.

    Mar 15, 2015
    Birmingham, UK
    Chapter 83: Jane’s Great Plan

    December, 1559

    Jane cleared her throat and looked at the two men before her. She had asked for this meeting whilst her husband attended to an issue in Wales, because she wanted to get their thoughts on a matter quite dear to her, without the King’s views influencing their words. “Your Eminence, Sir John, we have summoned you here today because we wished to discuss the matter of the church. Not just of England, but of Scotland and Ireland also.” She paused and saw that both men were deeply interested now. “It has come to our attention that since King Henry’s split from Rome, the churches of all three nations have undergone quite considerable transformation. Whilst our husband and King’s father King James did not split from Rome, he did on your advice Sir John introduce some changes. This has consequently led to a situation where in our view, the matter of the churches is confused and unclear. We must resolve this issue and we would hear from you both on this matter.”

    There was a brief silence as the two men looked at one another. Archbishop Thomas Cranmer was old and frail now, but his mind was still sharp, and he had harboured some sort of belief in the reformed religion for some time, Jane knew. Sir John was her husband’s closest advisor on religious matters, and she did not know quite where he stood on everything, that he had even agreed to meet with her at all was revelatory. Cranmer spoke first. “Majesty, before we can discuss this great and imposing issue, we must know whether Your Majesty wishes to discuss a solution for all three churches, or just one?”

    Jane shuffled slightly and then said. “All three churches, for they all descend from the same origin after all and they are united by one King and one Queen.”

    Cranmer did not say anything for the longest period, and when he did speak his voice was soft. “Then in that case, I would propose a grand council to resolve the matter involving all the great Bishops and clergy of the three realms.”

    “You would not provide a direct solution?” Jane asked surprised. She had never thought of Cranmer as the sort of man who would shy away from providing direct answers.

    “Majesty, it is not that, it is just that this is a matter that needs quite some thought and it would not be fair of me to simply propose a solution when the needs of each church vary so significantly.” Cranmer replied.

    “They do not vary so significantly, Your Eminence.” Knox said. “The issue is simple, we must decide, or rather Your Majesty must decide whether you wish for there to be three separate churches serving as an obstacle to the union of the crowns and the lands and peoples, or whether you want just one church to unify the entire island.”

    “You would erode history.” Cranmer said.

    Jane spoke then. “With respect, Your Eminence, history is already being eroded. We are forgetting that before we joined with Rome there was a united church based in York and spread throughout the isles. But that is not the point. The point is that the Church in Scotland and the Church in England follow a similar religious tone and belief, and the imagery in both churches is far more akin to the taste of these isles and not some pomposity from Rome. The church in Ireland is slowly moving toward this position as well. Therefore, we must ensure that it continues.”

    “Do you wish to create a united Britannic church, Your Majesty?” Cranmer asked.

    Jane saw no point in lying so she said. “Yes. That is the objective that myself and His Majesty the King share.”

    “Then a council is the way to go, Your Majesty.” Cranmer said. “Get everyone in one room, and get them to discuss the positives and cons of this system and then you will get them to see your view.”

    “And you do not think that this would be used by various parties to take away momentum?” Jane asked.

    “No, I do not. I think instead what it will do is give Your Majesty a chance to present your cause through reasoned argument before those who will need to implement the changes you wish, and it will allow them to see the positive side to it.” Cranmer said.

    “But you will not be there to host it.” Knox pointed out.

    Cranmer nodded. “Indeed I would not. I am old and failing, but you do not want me there. I am stubborn as well. You need someone who will be able to manoeuvre people to where you want them to be.”

    “So, who could that be?” Jane asked.

    “Not Pole, he is devoted to Rome.” Knox said.

    “And not Parker is a fool and no politician.” Cranmer said.

    “We do not want a politician we want someone who will share in our vision.” Jane said.

    “Then you want Grindal, Majesty.” Knox said.

    “Grindal is the right choice, he has brains, and he is devoted to the King and Your Majesty.” Cranmer said.

    “Then Grindal it shall be.” Jane declared.
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  2. Threadmarks: Chapter 84: Somersaults In The Wind

    VVD0D95 Lemmy is God.

    Mar 15, 2015
    Birmingham, UK
    Chapter 84: Somersaults In The Wind

    March, 1560

    Felipe looked at the letters strewn across his table and sighed. Sometimes he wished he was more organised and clinical like his father had been. And other times he liked that he was not so without mess. He knew what worked for him and he was going to keep working down that angle, whether it hurt him or not. It was a sin not to go with what you knew, the Priests all told him that.

    He looked up and looked at his councillors. “Gentlemen, we are five months from the issuing of the statement for reform, how are we looking?”

    Javier Godoy, his chancellor shifted nervously. “Sire, things do not look good.”

    Felipe raised an eyebrow. “Why?”

    “Sire, the flow of gold and silver from the new world is slowing down. It appears that our settlers in the colonies are beginning to demand things beyond their remit, such as representation in the Cortes and an ability to decide their own rates of taxation. Consequently, until those demands are met they will not allow for the supplies to be sent over.” Godoy said.

    “Which means that we will not have the money to pay for the road changes and sewage improvements that we had promised the people.” Felipe said. He thought on this for a moment and then turned to Alba and asked. “What are the chances that if we grant them what they want they shall relent?”

    Alba looked at him for a moment, a long one at that and eventually responded. “I do not think so Sire. These people, they are not honest men, if they where they would have realised that these actions do not serve any purpose. No, instead, I would have them all gathered up and executed to send a message to their fellow citizens.”

    “Sire, surely such a measure is harsh. We can give with one hand and take with the other without having to execute them.” Godoy protested.

    “Do you know what happens when you give a beggar food, Godoy?” Alba asked then. “He comes back to you day and night asking for more, until one day he will kill you. His Majesty cannot afford that.”

    Godoy said nothing then, for the analogy used played right into his own family’s history. Felipe looked at Alba and then said. “Send word to the governors, we want these men found and killed and we want the gold brought immediately.”

    “Yes, Sire.” Alba replied writing this down.

    “Sire,” Julien Castro his foreign minister began. “There has been word from France.”

    “Go on.” Felipe said.

    “The Queen Dowager has confirmed a betrothal with the heir to the Grand Duchy of Tuscany, and as such has brought the Medici into France’s orbit. Furthermore, the Duke of Guise has written to me to assure me that the Dowager Queen will not broach any alliance with Navarre in the short term.” Castro said.

    “Good.” Felipe replied. “We have also decided against any marriage between our daughter and Enrique of Navarre. We do not wish to condemn our daughter to a life of hell. Instead, we are considering the marriage with the French Princess for our own son.”

    “Such a marriage would be very beneficial, Sire, and it would help confirm for all of Europe that Spain is indeed the most powerful nation.” Castro said.

    “Good, see it done.” Felipe commanded, and Castro hurriedly made some notes.

    The man then spoke once more. “Sire, there has been some information passed onto me from our spies in London.” Felipe gestured for the man to continue. “It appears that King James and his wife are planning on having some sort of council to discuss the matters of the church.”

    Felipe raised an eyebrow. “What sort of matters?”

    Castro hesitated then and Felipe had to glare at him for him to continue. “Matters relating to whether or not to stay with Holy Mother Church or embrace the heresy found elsewhere.”

    Felipe repressed a sigh. He had feared something like this might happen. “And do we know whether this is something that King James has instigated or has it been done by his wife?”

    There was a moment’s pause and then Castro responded. “It appears as though it has been done by his wife, Majesty. She is the one who met with the reformers.”

    “Then perhaps we must send a reminder to King James that it was Eve who was created for Adam, not the other way around.” Felipe said.

    “Yes, Sire.” Castro replied making a note.
  3. Threadmarks: Chapter 85: Fort Knox

    VVD0D95 Lemmy is God.

    Mar 15, 2015
    Birmingham, UK
    Chapter 85: Fort Knox

    June, 1560

    John took a moment to look around the room. The Archbishop of Canterbury was not here, he was preparing for his last meeting with God, but the Archbishop of York was. The Archbishop of Glasgow and the Archbishop of St Andrews had come, as had the Archbishop of Dublin and various other minor Bishops and clergy. They had come to Hampton Court Palace, to discuss the future of the church not just in England, but in the entire isles. John felt honoured that the King and Queen had seen fit to name him chairman of this congregation or congress.

    He cleared his throat and spoke. “Gentlemen, Your Eminences, it has been some time since we met and discussed. We have all gone around in circles trying to decide where the future lies. I propose we look at something completely new and different from the usual theological debates.” He paused to let his words sink in, and as expected, the people gathered round leaned in. “I propose we discuss something crucial to each and everyone of you, that being the role of Bishops in the church.”

    Immediately the Archbishop of York who no doubted thought his succession to the role of Canterbury secure spoke. “There is nothing to discuss. There have always been Bishops so long as there has been a church.”

    Knox looked at the man and said. “Actually, Your Eminence that is not true.” Before he could finish, York interrupted.

    “Do not blaspheme me, Knox. You know nothing more of the church than I.”

    John hid the smile behind his hand and once he had composed himself replied. “Your Eminence, I mean no offence, but these documents here clearly prove that the role of Bishops only emerged during the second century following the end of Christ.” He passed the documents down the table to York who read them with great insistence.

    The Archbishop of St Andrews spoke. “Regardless of their historical relevance, I do believe that Bishops are necessary.”

    “And why do you say that, Your Eminence?” John asked, knowing he needed to be careful here.

    “I say that because through the anointing of the Bishop, we therefore allow ourselves to channel the Holy Father and his Son onto Earth and therefore ensure that we add religious legitimacy to everything that occurs. And that is something that is needed whether or not you believe it has existed since the start.” St Andrews replied.

    John thought over that. “But then, do you believe that they need hold their power from Rome?” He saw what that did and saw how York contorted.

    “Where else would we draw our power from other than from Holy Mother Church?” York demanded.

    “Why from God’s representative on this world.” John replied.

    “That is the Holy Father himself in Rome.” York responded.

    “You are wrong, Your Eminence.” John said. “The Pope is the foundation of the church, not of God’s authority on this world.”

    Before York could respond, the Archbishop of Glasgow spoke. “He is right you know.” There was a pause and then the man continued. “God’s authority is vested in the King, as his only son said ‘Give unto Caesar,’ meaning that we owe are places in this world to the King.”

    “So, what of the other Kings?” York countered. “Do they require our obedience as well?”

    “No.” the Archbishop of Dublin said. “We were not created by them, we were created by the King who sits in London.”

    “Exactly,” John said happy to have finally reached his point. “If Bishops are necessary they are necessary only so far as they serve at the King’s pleasure. The King rules all three Kingdoms on this most august Island fortress, therefore, it makes sense for him to have the right to appoint those who would spread his word, for his word is God’s word, do you not agree?”

    “Does this mean we are leaving Rome?” York asked hesitantly.

    “We shall decide that in due course.” John replied smiling.

    “I agree with Sir John,” The Archbishop of Glasgow said. “The King is our master, not Rome.”

    There was a moment’s pause and John waited, he knew not to rush these men, they were Bishops they were old men and they did everything slowly. Eventually, York grumpily said. “Very well, I can see the sense in that.”

    “Let us have a vote then.” John said. “Those in favour, say aye.” All of them said aye so he did not bother saying the other option.

    “It is confirmed then, the King is God’s chosen on this world, and his right is to appoint his representatives in the Bishops on this island fortress.” John said.
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2019 at 8:45 AM
  4. FriendlyGhost Haunting history for 45+ yrs

    Another good update, thank you!

    Things seem to heading towards a more OTL-Anglican type of British church than OTL Knox supported, but I do wonder if he views this just as a first step...

    Small nitpick, sorry: calling someone a piece of furniture, i.e. the use of 'chair' instead of 'chairman,' is a very modern thing; 'chairman' or 'moderator' would be much more in keeping with the times.
  5. VVD0D95 Lemmy is God.

    Mar 15, 2015
    Birmingham, UK
    Glad you like it! And Knox has his plans, don't you worry :)

    And ahhh, thanks, will amend that :)
  6. Threadmarks: Chapter 86: Resolutions

    VVD0D95 Lemmy is God.

    Mar 15, 2015
    Birmingham, UK
    Chapter 86: Resolutions

    September, 1560

    James had tried to avoid Hampton Court as much as possible, though his spies in the meetings of the congregation of clergy had told him all about what was happening and who was doing what, and who had slept with whose daughter and all of that. He knew all of that, and frankly he was quite disgusted with it. These were men of the cloth acting as if they were little more than animals caught in heat, arguing and bickering and fucking anything that moved. He was of half a mind to lock the doors of the palace and burn them all down. But decided against that course because it would ruin a perfectly nice palace after all.

    He had decided after months of thinking over it to come to Hampton Court. He’d left St James, and taken his wife with him. It had been her idea after all. And now, they were stood outside the doors of the main room, waiting. “Their Majesties the King and Queen.” The herald announced, the doors opened and the guards banged their staffs on the floor. The room went completely silent as James walked into the room with Jane. They continued walking ignoring the eyes on them, before stopping in front of the thrones. James sat down and then helped his wife sit, before gesturing for the others to sit down as well.

    Once that was done he spoke. “It has been some time since this congregation was first called. In that time we know you have discussed much and decided on many things. We wish to see what you have decided.” He paused and then said. “Your Eminence,” he looked at the Archbishop of York. “Would you mind telling us what you have decided.”

    The Archbishop of York looked frail and fragile, but he still had an arrogant demeanour about his person when he rose. “Of course, Majesty.” A pause and then. “On the matter of the role of Bishops we have decided that they are simply Your Majesty’s representatives to the people of these isles. We believe that Your Majesty has been chosen by God as his representative on this world and therefore it is our duty to do as Your Majesty bids, and that Your Majesty has the right to choose us and dismiss us as you please.”

    James looked at the Archbishop and then at Jane and then asked. “And what of Rome?”

    Here the Archbishop looked uncomfortable but still replied. “Sire, we have agreed that the Church of Rome whilst being the first Church, is little more than a foreign intervention within the realms of these three Kingdoms.”

    James was not sure whether he agreed with that, but he was intrigued to see where this was going. “Go on.”

    “Sire?” York asked confused.

    “What else do you think in relation to Rome?” James asked.

    “Sire, we believe that the Church in Rome has strayed far from the true teachings of the Church. We believe that there should not need to be any sort of payment for service offered in the church. We believe that though Adam and Eve were the original sinners, that they did so because of the free will that Lord God gave them, we believe that humanity has the chance to choose where it wishes to go, and that God will decide where we go as a basis of our decisions. Bribery is not something that can settle that.” York said.

    “Good.” James said simply. “What else have you decided?”

    “We have agreed that the bread and wine of Communion is indeed a representation of the body and blood of our Saviour Christ, and that it is an essential part of the service.” York said. “We have also agreed that services should be conducted not in the Latin of the foreigner, but instead in the English that is native to this island fortress.”

    James nodded, he had long agreed with that statement. “And what else have you decided?”

    Here York hesitated for the longest time, and James wondered what was making the man hesitate for so long. “We believe that Your Majesty as God’s representative on this world and for this island fortress, should be the Head of the Church for all three Kingdoms.” There was a pause and then. “Whilst the Pope might have claimed such a thing as St Peter’s representative here, he was not made by God as Your Majesty was, therefore we wish for Your Majesty to take your rightful place as the head of the Church for all three Kingdoms.”

    James was stunned, he had somewhat expected the decision that he should choose the Bishops, but to be claimed as head of all three churches? That was something he had definitely not expected. He looked at Jane who nodded encouragingly. “We….we are most honoured by this decision and do gratefully accept.”

    York bowed before him and the other clergy rose and did the same. “Then it is our honour to see you as God’s true representative here on these Britannic Isles, Your Most Divine Majesty.” York said, as others took up the call.
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  7. FriendlyGhost Haunting history for 45+ yrs

    I didn't expect that! Agreement on a split with Rome and the king as temporal head of the church?! I was sure there would be some big split or something, with heads needing to be banged together (metaphorically). You continue to surprise me... thanks!
  8. VVD0D95 Lemmy is God.

    Mar 15, 2015
    Birmingham, UK
    Glad you liked it. I can you assure you now, not everyone's going to be happy with this, nor is Spain.