Flower O'Scotland

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by VVD0D95, Nov 29, 2018.

  1. Threadmarks: Chapter 1: Something Real

    VVD0D95 Lemmy is God.

    Mar 15, 2015
    Birmingham, UK
    Flower O’ Scotland

    Chapter 1: Something Real

    April, 1541

    James stood where he was, staring at the map before him. He knew things were getting more and more tense with his uncle in the south, but he refused to buckle. He refused to give into the temptation of the Devil as his uncle had. Indeed, he hoped to perhaps make things right in England, by placing his cousin Mary on the throne. He had received word that there were some nobles who wished to see the King of England dead, alongside his son, and have his only trueborn daughter placed on the throne. That was good news indeed.

    Before he could do that however, he needed to have an heir alive and well. His two sons were both terribly ill, some sort of malady, though he suspected they had been poisoned by something. The doctors were coming to speak with him now. There was a knock on the door. “Enter.” He called out. The door opened and in walked the two doctors he had entrusted to seeing to his sons’ wellbeing. “Well?” James enquired, his patience not allowing for the usual courtesies.

    The senior Doctor, Doctor Beaton, spoke. “Sire, the news we have is both good and bad.”

    “What is the bad news?” James asked.

    “His Royal Highness, Prince Arthur will not be able to walk properly for some time. The illness he has suffered has left him with some deformities within his legs. He will need aid of a cane to walk as he grows.” Doctor Beaton said.

    James nodded, no doubt some Protestant heretic would try to make that seem as a punishment from God. “But he will live?” He asked.

    “Yes Sire. He will live. As will His Royal Highness, the Duke of Rothesay.” Doctor Beaton said. “The malady such as it was having been removed from their bodies and their systems. They will not suffer from the illness again.”

    James nodded, though he wanted sureties. Beaton was good, but he was old. “Doctor Randolph, what say you?”

    Doctor Randolph was a younger man, about James’ age, and he had studied the most recent texts from the continent and practices. “I agree with Doctor Beaton, Sire. The Princes’ will not suffer from this ailment ever again; they are inoculated against it.”

    James smiled. “Thank you both, good doctors, you have done Scotland a great service.” He picked up two bags filled with gold and handed them to the men. Both of whom smiled. “God bless you.” He said, they bowed and then walked out. James turned back to the map, and said to himself. “I have two sons, uncle, you have only the one. God is smiling upon me, upon Scotland.”
  2. VVD0D95 Lemmy is God.

    Mar 15, 2015
    Birmingham, UK
    So, this is something I've been toying with for some time. As the chapter should make clear, both of James V's sons by Mary of Guise who in otl died in 1541, have survived here. They are James (b.1540) and Arthur (b.1541). Though Arthur will suffer from a stunted leg, he is now second in line to the throne. Displacing the Earl of Arran, and slapping Henry VIII in the face.

    A great thanks to @FalconHonour, for their advice and help so far :)
  3. FalconHonour Well-Known Member

    Nov 16, 2018
    I like it :)
  4. FalconHonour Well-Known Member

    Nov 16, 2018
    Not entirely sure they would have spoken in terms of innoculation in those days, but other than that this is a great start!
  5. Southern pride Well-Known Member

    Jul 13, 2017
    Very interesting will definitely follow.
  6. HRH Cecily Well-Known Member

    Jan 26, 2017
    Interesting. Do you still plan to have James V die in 1542?
  7. FalconHonour Well-Known Member

    Nov 16, 2018
    Now, that would be telling, wouldn't it?! ;)
  8. Threadmarks: Chapter 2: Jealousy

    FalconHonour Well-Known Member

    Nov 16, 2018
    Posting on @VVD0D95's behalf, as they have unfortunately been kicked for the week after something on another thread got out of hand... Don't worry they'll be back soon :)

    Chapter 2: Jealousy

    May, 1541

    James read through the letter again and sighed. His cousin the King’s sons had both successfully survived the illnesses which had gripped them. And whilst this was good for Scotland, it wasn’t so good for him. There would be nothing to tie him back to their illnesses, of that he knew, and yet he found little to hope for. He was now third in line of succession, but the King had strengthened the guard both mortal and otherwise around the two Princes as well as around his wife. Furthermore, the King had deigned to summons the lords of the realm to Edinburgh for a feast in Thanksgiving.

    He looked at his brother, also named James and said. “The King will now have no further need of me. My services to him will be considered moot, due to the survival of his two sons. Our family is yet again going to be put out on the periphery of Scotland and the court, whilst Sinclair and Maxwell continue to dominate.”

    His brother, a bastard, and yet somewhere in the line to succession also, replied. “Not necessarily. You are still the King’s only adult heir. And his two sons are young yet. They will need someone there to guide them. Install one of your own men as their tutors, and you will be able to shape their thinking for years to come. Though of course they are babes yet, so perhaps sending Helen to be a lady in waiting to the Queen would be of better use.”

    “And give Campbell a chance to get himself ingratiated with the King? I think not.” James replied. Campbell was a slippery figure at the best of times. Giving him a chance to get into the King’s ear now, was not something that James wanted.

    “Then it will have to be Janet. Her husband is friendly with you, is he not?” His brother replied.

    “Yes. Cunningham knows which way his bread is buttered.” James said simply. “Though of course there is the other option.”

    “If you go toward the English, you will face nothing but trouble. King Henry wants supremacy over the entire isles, he’s already sent his favourites off to take Ireland in hand. You do not want to be associated with that man.” James’s brother, Finnart said.

    “And yet to not get involved with King Henry would mean that we are doing something horrendously wrong. I do not wish to venture toward something that I cannot get out of, but nor do I wish to stay routed within something that I do not think will go anywhere. Right now, it feels as though with the King’s sons surviving, there is little room for my own ambitions to grow.” James said simply.

    “And what about the ambitions of the family? You are the Earl of Arran, second most powerful man in the realm behind the King. You have the ability to shape things for the good. Do not lose sight of that.” Finnart said, he picked up the letter. “Go to the feast, speak with the King, drink and be merry. And when all is said and done, remind him of your place in the Royal Family.”
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2018
  9. Threadmarks: Chapter 3: For Want Of A Nail

    FalconHonour Well-Known Member

    Nov 16, 2018
    And now we go South of the border, for a glimpse at what England makes of all these developments :)

    Chapter 3: For Want Of A Nail

    July, 1541

    Henry stared at the papers spread out before him, fighting the urge to scream. His head hurt, his leg hurt, everything hurt. All he wanted to do was sleep and not have to bother with this blasted tedium. Yet, here he was, it was late, and he was awake reading through documents. Cranmer was there also, sat on the other side of the table, waiting for him to speak, and no doubt give his own thoughts on things. Henry decided that the sooner he spoke, the sooner this could all be over.

    “How trustworthy is the Earl of Arran?” He asked. They had received private correspondence from the man who was third in line to the throne, seeking an alliance against France.

    “Sire, my spies in Scotland report that the King of Scots has grown tired of Francis I and his so called blustering. The thought of being allied to a man who is allied with the heretics in Constantinople makes the King of Scots blood boil. I would say that Arran’s letter is accurate in its portrayal of the King.” Cranmer replied.

    “And do you think Arran speaks truly when he says that the King is indeed leaning toward the reformed church?” Henry asked. This was something he doubted, he knew his nephew, he was as stubborn as his thrice damned Mother.

    “On that note I think Arran might have given himself over to hyperbole, Sire. My spies report that the King of Scots remains as committed as ever to Rome. Arran himself however, feels that the reformed church is the best place with which Scotland can go. Given the Church’s corruption.” Cranmer replied.

    Henry nodded. “No doubt the man wants some accident to befall his King so that he can then serve as regent for the boy.” That mere thought was distasteful to Henry. He might not like his nephew, but he would not abide by the man being removed. “No, tell Arran that unless he can arrange for a meeting between us and our nephew, we are not interested.” Cranmer made note of that. “And what of the Howards, they are going to come to court are they not? To celebrate the birth of Eleanor?” His daughter by Catherine had been born a month ago, and though not the son he had wanted, he was happy he had another child.

    “They are Sire.” Cranmer said. “Though it seems that the Duke of Norfolk himself might not be able to attend, being ill with some sort of fever.”

    Henry snorted. “That man is always ailing, that is all there ever is to him. But very well. We will of course want grand celebrations, and we suppose that if we must, bring our two illegitimate daughters to court also, so they might see the celebrations.” He did not like Mary, but Elizabeth reminded him of himself at her age, so that was tolerable.

    “Yes, Sire.” Cranmer replied. The man paused and then said. “There is also a petition from Lord Stafford for the return of his father’s estates and his restoration by blood.”

    Henry stiffened. “And what, pray tell, does the man think he has done to earn the restoration of what his father’s treachery had cost him?” He like Stafford, the man had sense where his father had had none, but still this was something else entirely.

    “He points to the good service he offered during Your Majesty’s last campaign, as well as the information he provided to you during the turmoil of the traitor Anne Boleyn. And finally he points you to the information he provided during the recent seizures.” Cranmer said.

    Henry considered this and then asked. “What would your advice be?”

    “I would advise, Sire, that you return some of the estates to Stafford, and perhaps raise him to an Earldom, but not to the full Dukedom. Let him earn that much for himself.” Cranmer replied.

    Henry nodded. “Very well, have the papers drawn up. We shall get to that at once.” A headache hit him then and he waved a hand. “First let us rest for a time.” Cranmer bowed and departed, Henry rose, and stumbled into the next room, where his bed awaited him.

    NB: Eleanor was never born in history. Chalk her existence up to butterflies: Henry trying to keep up with his Scottish nephew now that the Scottish Princes have survived.
  10. Threadmarks: Chapter 4: Culpepper

    FalconHonour Well-Known Member

    Nov 16, 2018
    Chapter 4: Culpepper

    September, 1541

    Thomas entered the room, nodded to the guards and bowed before the Queen. He kissed her outstretched hand and then straightened. “Your Majesty.” He said simply.

    “Sit.” The Queen commanded him and so he did. She looked him over once “You are well?” She asked.

    “I am, Your Majesty. And yourself?” Thomas asked knowing that they had a very dangerous game to play, there were ears in the walls.

    “As well as can be.” The Queen replied. Silence followed for a time, then the Queen said. “You have done as I have asked?”

    Thomas nodded. “I have, Your Majesty. His body will not be found for some time. Enough time for all evidence to be burned. As I have told my people to do.”

    The Queen gave him one of those rare smiles, and he felt his heart lift. “Good, you have done well.” Another pause, and then the Queen continued. “And those who have spoken ill of me in the past?”

    “I have spoken with John and we have reached an agreement. I shall speak with his niece and see whether we can reach an agreement for a marriage.” Thomas said. He knew that his Queen would not like that, but if it kept her alive, then it was for the best.

    The Queen put a hand on his face. “You are so gallant as to do this for me, Thomas. I know what it will cost you.”

    “I do it for you, Your Majesty. That is reward enough.” Thomas said. He kissed her hand.

    The Queen said nothing, merely allowing her hand to trace over his face, she then said. “I think that we must seek to remove Cranmer, though I know not how.”

    Thomas hesitated. “Your Majesty, removing Cranmer will not be as easy as dealing with the two other problems you have faced. I am a friend to the King, but Cranmer is his chief advisor. He would take anything I say and discard it if Cranmer told him it was wrong.”

    The Queen did not seem perturbed however. She merely removed her hand and said. “But you are not the King’s wife. I am. And I have given him a daughter, a daughter he dotes on. He continues to seek my bed, and soon I shall be heavy with child once more. When that happens, then I shall tell him that Cranmer has betrayed him.”

    “And what of the King’s other children?” Thomas asked. “Will you remove them if you bear the King a son?” He would not be surprised if she did. The Queen was ruthless when she needed to be.

    “Edward is sickly, he will die soon anyway. Bess is a bastard in the eyes of the Catholic Church, and Mary, now Mary is the most difficult one to handle. She will need to be dealt with. Frances might just do the trick, though I am unsure of that.” The Queen replied.

    “Frances gets along well with Mary, Your Majesty. Perhaps if you convince the King of the danger Mary poses?” Thomas suggested.

    “I will see. The King’s mood can and does change. But if I give him a son, then he will most certainly see what I mean.” The Queen said.

    Thomas bowed before her. “Of course, Your Majesty.”
  11. Cate13 Well-Known Member

    Oct 25, 2016
    Oooh, I like how you've given Catherine Howard some of the Howard drive and cunning. She's usually portrayed as rather ditzy.
    kasumigenx likes this.
  12. FalconHonour Well-Known Member

    Nov 16, 2018

    I think it's because she was so young when she married Henry. But yes, Howard drive is never a bad thing!
    Ciniad, kasumigenx and Cate13 like this.
  13. HRH Cecily Well-Known Member

    Jan 26, 2017
    Very intriguing.

    Kathryn Howard's pregnancy not being false is very fascinating idea and I like the name Eleanor ;)

    Regarding England and Kathryn, has she been crowned or is Henry waiting for her to have a son to do so? Where does Eleanor stand in the line of succession? After Edward but before Mary and Elizabeth?

    On the Scotland side, it will be interesting to see if a Mary Stewart is born to James and Marie of Guise since even if she's born at the same time as OTL, her situation will be quite different with living brothers.

    Either way, can I recommend that you utiltize Lady Jean Stewart in some capacity? She was one of James' bastards by Elizabeth Bethune and very useful to her half-sister Mary, Queen of Scots.

    Can I ask for a clarification on which Earl of Arran this is? I did try looking it up on wikipedia but there are just so many James Hamilton, Earl of Arrans!
    Cate13 likes this.
  14. FalconHonour Well-Known Member

    Nov 16, 2018
    At the moment, yes, little Eleanor does stand between Edward and Mary in the succession, but of course, she is just a baby. I'm not sure if Kathryn has been crowned, but knowing Henry, I doubt it. If Jane was never crowned, I doubt Henry would be willing to crown any other wife of his...

    I've not a clue what VVD0D95's intentions are for either Mary or Jean - I'm just being the poster in their stead whilst their kick is in effect, but I'm sure they'll bear your comment in mind...
    Cate13 and Alex Zetsu like this.
  15. Threadmarks: Chapter 5: Plots

    VVD0D95 Lemmy is God.

    Mar 15, 2015
    Birmingham, UK
    Chapter 5: Plots

    December, 1541

    “How do the accounts look?” James asked. He knew they had spent a fair sum celebrating the birth of his heir and spare and their survival. He also knew his wife was pregnant once more and he wanted to know if they could afford another celebration. He hoped for a girl this time.

    Sir James Kirkcaldy, Lord High Treasurer looked at the documents before him and said. “Sire, we have enough money to see through another three celebrations, including the great feast planned in three days time for the celebration of Christ’s birth. Furthermore the income from the monasteries is bolstering the royal coffers.”

    “Good.” James said, he did not know how he felt about charging the monasteries for their land and their produce, but if it strengthened the coffers then so be it.

    “And what of those heretics, where do they stand?” James asked. He knew some of them had tried to bring Arran over to his side, but he was not sure if they had succeeded.

    “So far they remain silent.” Cardinal Beaton said. “They have seemingly accepted the Edicts that Your Majesty issued some months ago. However, my sources report that they are still unhappy over what they term the abuses of the clerical purse.”

    James snorted. “How surprising. They read one chapter from that fool Luther and then they suddenly think they know more about the Church and the doctrine that His Holiness. Tell me, why is it always those who were the leading exploiters of the corruption within the church that embrace this heresy?” This was something he had long wanted to know for it made no sense to him.

    “Sire, they are the ones who wish to gain something from pointing this out. It is popular with their tenants and they are hypocrites, possessed by the devil.” Cardinal Beaton replied.

    “I do not think it is as simple as that, Sire.” Sir James replied.

    “And what pray, do you think the reason is that has led these men toward blasphemy and treason?” James demanded of his treasurer.

    “I think we can see the hand of England within this. Notice how they do not espouse that form of heresy found within the continent. Instead they follow a similar line as that preached within England’s churches. I believe that King Henry is their main benefactor.” Sir James said.

    James thought on this for a moment and then nodded. “Of that we can see. Our Uncle has never quite realised that Scotland has and always will be independent of the English in every way.” He paused then and then asked. “What might we do to drive them away from his grasping hands?” He did not want his lords being in debt to the King of England.

    “I would say call for a meeting of the lords and clergy to discuss how to reform the church. Take opinion and then go from there. I am sure none of the lords currently speaking of heresy would last long if their arguments were heard.” Sir James said.

    “What say you, Cardinal?” James asked.

    Cardinal Beaton hesitated for a moment and then said. “I think such a thing could be useful, Sire. It would certainly quell any malicious rumours out there.”

    James clapped his hands together and said. “Then let the letters be sent out. Let us have this council and put all matters to rest.”
  16. FalconHonour Well-Known Member

    Nov 16, 2018
    Oooh, now this makes for an interesting start to a reformed Scotland. I could totally see James V doing this just to spite his Uncle, too! Great job!
  17. VVD0D95 Lemmy is God.

    Mar 15, 2015
    Birmingham, UK
    Glad you liked it. I had a feeling James V instead of going on a massive burning spree might look to take charge of things, to get his own version of the counter reformation
  18. FalconHonour Well-Known Member

    Nov 16, 2018
    Oh indeed, and that willingness to discuss things, at the very least, will stand his son in good stead further down the line, hehe...
  19. FalconHonour Well-Known Member

    Nov 16, 2018
    Slight problem, though, Marie of Guise is pregnant again here, but Mary of Scotland wasn't born until December 1542. Are butterflies bringing her birth forward by a couple of months?
  20. VVD0D95 Lemmy is God.

    Mar 15, 2015
    Birmingham, UK
    Definitely aha
    And ah, I'd forgotten about that. Let's go with yes?