Fear, Loathing and Gumbo on the Campaign Trail '72

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Drew

John Farson said:
Just out of curiosity, I compiled a list of the countries involved in the Rhodesian (or Southern African) War and their populations. ....

This war could be similar to the Sino-Japanese War in that it will not matter how many battles the NRA wins, the other side will just refuse to give up, especially when they keep getting Soviet weapons, funds and advisors, like the Cubans. And meanwhile the bodybags keep piling up, the economy continues to deteriorate, more and more areas in Rhodesia become "no-go" areas for Whites, the Black South Africans get more and more restless...
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The numbers are against them, and logically they should make some sort of peace with that as they did OTL. ITTL hotter heads have prevailed. Of course they might be figuring to change those odds a little with the use of WMD -- but that too will get messy.

The situation kind of reminds me of a "gotcha moment" that Hitler had when the British and French went against his expectations and declared war over Poland -- suddenly he had what he didn't expect on his hands.

I have no doubt that there will be dissent in Salsbury and Pretoria, but as the situation becomes more desperate, dissent will be seen more and more as treason.

Thanks for the research John.
 

Drew

Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy said:
Have the '80 and '84 Olympics been assigned as in OTL?
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Moscow 1980, Los Angeles 1984. The plans for Moscow would have been made before the full ripples of this TL would have reached everywhere and I don't see anything that has changed the circumstances for choosing LA. In fact LA might be even more eager given the infusion of money they might expect from the Olympics.

There's no overwhelming western reason to boycott Moscow ITTL (no Afghan invasion) and therefore no reciprocal reason for an LA boycott.

Of course 1984 is a long way off, so it may never happen at all, depending on what goes down...
 

Drew

jmberry said:
This is meant to be a contribution in the same sense as vultan's "Quest 3000" entry. For the past year or so everyone's bandied ideas around for what became of Star Wars after Lucas died, but the most concrete and official statement we've had is "an animated movie was made, a live-action follow-up is possible." Thus, I've decided to post what I'd believe that would look like. Drew can accept this or reject it.


November 15, 1978
....

[8] Chewbacca wears pants and speaks English TTL.
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I am reviewing this and will comment.
 

Drew

Grand Prince Paul II. said:
As Drew already said, ITTL Mongolia is even more depend on the USSR than IOTL (a SSR in all but name).
It would not be surprising if men like Brzezinski do not distinguish between Soviet territory and the territory of such a Soviet-dominated satellite state.



We can expect that Mao the Lesser's rule will reduce the population of Manchuria to a more "manageable" level.
And there is North Korea, another Soviet client state which could and would occupy and annex Manchurian territory with Soviet consent and assistance.
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The thing to remember too is that along China's borders there a long historic grivences that pre-date Communist ideology. They will come to the fore depending upon the relative strength of the party in question. So for instance a Mancuhiran independence movement, a Mongolian desire to see more of Inner Monglia under Ulan Bator, North Vietnam re-settling the frontier etc.

And of course there's India, as well as those Russians...

China's not in for a good time...
 

teg

Drew said:
Moscow 1980, Los Angeles 1984. The plans for Moscow would have been made before the full ripples of this TL would have reached everywhere and I don't see anything that has changed the circumstances for choosing LA. In fact LA might be even more eager given the infusion of money they might expect from the Olympics.

There's no overwhelming western reason to boycott Moscow ITTL (no Afghan invasion) and therefore no reciprocal reason for an LA boycott.

Of course 1984 is a long way off, so it may never happen at all, depending on what goes down...
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That sounds a little to ominous IMO. Maybe there will be no LA? :(

teg
 

Drew

Someone asked about Portugal gaining nothing from the war with Spain, which is about correct (except they did weaken Spain's military and reduced a near threat to their revolution).

However, some in Portugal might well ask - "was this worth it?" And that should cause a few sleepless nights in the Palácio de São Bento.

And don't think Pope Pius XIII doesn't have ideas about spreading the Spanish experiement to his homeland either.
 

Drew

John Farson said:
Regardless of whatever support they receive from other authoritarian regimes and sympathizers in the West, South Africa and Rhodesia will undoubtably sink deeper and deeper into pariah state status. However, if the policies of Malan, Ina Bursey and their flunkies become more extreme/genocidal, their countries may come to be viewed less as African versions of the US Jim Crow South, and more like African versions of Nazi Germany.

Such a scenario would be a great propaganda gift to the East Block, as they could then accuse the US and her allies of backing modern-day versions of the Nazis. If horrendous S. African/White Rhodesian atrocities come to light, they would be hugely embarrassing to those right-wing elements in the West who have backed them, similar to how the eventual revelation of the horrors of the Lesser Mao's China will be hugely embarrassing to those far-left elements that have backed them, or at least regarded them as the aggrieved party, like Barbara Castle.
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Long term the practical left (the Italians, the Yugoslavs, the Mitterrand and even the British Labour government) are gaining from this, while the looney left which is sticking to China for ideological reasons is getting a black eye, as will the anti-communist right as the situation in Africa continues to degenerate.

Of course that may not reach the States where practical and politics often have a passing relationship at best.
 

John Farson

Banned
Drew said:
Someone asked about Portugal gaining nothing from the war with Spain, which is about correct (except they did weaken Spain's military and reduced a near threat to their revolution).

However, some in Portugal might well ask - "was this worth it?" And that should cause a few sleepless nights in the Palácio de São Bento.

And don't think Pope Pius XIII doesn't have ideas about spreading the Spanish experiement to his homeland either.
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Oh, absolutely. The communists hijacked the Portuguese revolution and the country is undoubtably worse off because of it. They deserve to be thrown out, too.

I have no doubt that there will be dissent in Salsbury and Pretoria, but as the situation becomes more desperate, dissent will be seen more and more as treason.

Thanks for the research John.
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You're welcome. And I agree. In fact, that would be just one factor in making the world equate South Africa with Nazi Germany rather than the Jim Crow South.

Picture the Soweto massacre scene at the end of Cry Freedom. The heavily armed police and soldiers facing the crowd of demonstrators. Only the crowd isn't black. It's white, consisting of anti-war demonstrators singing "Give Peace a Chance". Then the police and army open fire, mowing down dozens.

It's one thing (to the white South Africans) when the authorities gun down "kaffirs". It's another when it's their sons and daughters being blown away in cold blood.
 

Spengler

Banned
I'm wondering how India is doing. How bad will the break up your planning be. (Please don't do it, your already turning China into super somalia).
 

Goldstein

Banned
Drew said:
Thanks. Given I get a D- in the graphic arts department.

With the Spanish flag, it's open to debate = I was trying to approximate a flag that would tie Spain's past to its present so that it would represent the new Spanish Republic as a continuation of all of Spain's heritage and not the victory of one group or another. That's why I chose Republican as well as Royalist seals.

Alternatively the new Republic might come-up with a new coat of arms or seal to use in place of all three that has some meaning to the direction of the new Republic. Like I said, I'm not much of a grpahic artist.
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Just give me some time and I'll PM you.
 

Grand Prince Paul II.

Urban fox said:
Even if the PRC's population has been redudced to the same degree Pol Pot's Cambodia was, it'd still be a massive load to take on given the sorry state those people would be in.

Of course the Soviets being able to pose as genuine liberators, freeing the Manchuria people from the evil neo-Taiping nutcases running China would help their image abroad and drum up some patriotic pride in thier population. As the Red Army was the U.S.S.R most ''trusted'' institution.

North Korea would never be able to absorb Manchuria, though some border regions with a large historic Korean population could realistically be transfered.
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I think a joint Soviet-North Korean occupation of Manchuria is feasible and likely.
The expansion of North Korea in Manchuria would probably help the new North Korean leadership to legitimize their reformed regime and decrease tensions between them and the South Koreans.

Drew said:
Someone asked about Portugal gaining nothing from the war with Spain, which is about correct (except they did weaken Spain's military and reduced a near threat to their revolution).

However, some in Portugal might well ask - "was this worth it?" And that should cause a few sleepless nights in the Palácio de São Bento.
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The leadership of the DPRP could argue that the war was the necessary second step (with the first step being the Portuguese revolution) to end the fascist(-esque) regimes of the Iberian Peninsula.
 

BolivarianHero

Banned
Drew said:
Moscow 1980, Los Angeles 1984. The plans for Moscow would have been made before the full ripples of this TL would have reached everywhere and I don't see anything that has changed the circumstances for choosing LA. In fact LA might be even more eager given the infusion of money they might expect from the Olympics.

There's no overwhelming western reason to boycott Moscow ITTL (no Afghan invasion) and therefore no reciprocal reason for an LA boycott.

Of course 1984 is a long way off, so it may never happen at all, depending on what goes down...
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Kind of shameful to see countries boycott Moscow over bunch of pedophiles, misogynists, and fascists. The reds were the good guys in Afghanistan. Look how much better women did in the Soviet Union than in any Islamic country, especially Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Saudi Arabia.
 
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