Eyes Turned Skywards

Did you read the link? :) It's a Charlie Stross story about a fictional effort called NAIL SPIKE which was trying to get Soviet scientists to kill themselves by leaking supposed top-secret rocket designs.
Yes, I did read it.

But there mere thought that someone, even if fictional, might actually try it gives me nightmares...
 
i look into the five engine RZ2 Griffin

It's possible with little modification on Turbo-pump exhaust !
also to Connect 4xBlue Streak as booster is easy.

what we get on thrust ?
with 734 kN RZ2 on Griffin= 3670 kN (Ariane 40 = 2668 kN, Falcon 9= 3807 kN, )
Griffin with 4 Blue Streak booster= 9547 kN (Ariane 44L= 5332 kN, Proton = 8844 kN)

Now my little pet project: Griffin as Booster on Hydro/lox core stage aka Europa 5 or 4 for 1990s or after 2000.
Thrust 14600 kN (4 griffin) to 29360 kN (8 Griffin) that range of Ariane 5 14400 kN to Energia 29000 kN !
With Core stage with 158 tons fuel and 2 HM60 engine with each 800 kN. or bigger

but i afraid, that ESA in this TL. Will not take this Proposal...:rolleyes:


By the way
The RZ2 data on Astronautix is little bit wrong
after i calculated the RZ2 size on some photograph of Europa-2 rocket.
i get on engine nozzle 44 inch or 117 cm ø and not 154 cm ø
 
Last edited:
i look into the five engine RZ2 Griffin

It's possible with little modification on Turbo-pump exhaust !
I'm still leaning towards a four engine Griffin, even if there's room on the bottom for 5. In order to avoid the core burning out before the boosters in that case, it'd also mandate a core stretch of no less than 25%, which would complicate the booster attachment. It's a lot of complication, and I'm not convinced the payload increases justify it.

but i afraid, that ESA in this TL. Will not take this Proposal...:rolleyes:
It's likely to be well into the 90s before they'd need that, or have the spare funding to develop that core. So it's certainly not within the realm of Part II. Is it out of line for Part III? I dunno, it depends if they decide they do have the need for a native LV with that range of payloads, which is dependent on a lot of factors that are still up in the air. I'll simply hold off on answering on the grounds of not wanting to say something we're as likely as not to later contradict.
 
I'm still leaning towards a four engine Griffin, even if there's room on the bottom for 5. In order to avoid the core burning out before the boosters in that case, it'd also mandate a core stretch of no less than 25%, which would complicate the booster attachment. It's a lot of complication, and I'm not convinced the payload increases justify it.

One thing that bugs me. It seems like that the new Core Stage of Europa 3 has about 200% the propellant capacity of the Blue Streak, yet consumes it at about 200% the rate. Meaning that a Europa 3 with Blue Streak Boosters will burnout its Core Stage and Boosters at the same time. Reason?


It's likely to be well into the 90s before they'd need that, or have the spare funding to develop that core. So it's certainly not within the realm of Part II. Is it out of line for Part III? I dunno, it depends if they decide they do have the need for a native LV with that range of payloads, which is dependent on a lot of factors that are still up in the air. I'll simply hold off on answering on the grounds of not wanting to say something we're as likely as not to later contradict.

Seems like a good idea. It also sounds like they won't be getting a Manned Spacecraft of their own until at least the early-1990s. So the 80s in that regard would be taken up by paper plans and maybe some initial work. But at least that provides time to work on it.
 
One thing that bugs me. It seems like that the new Core Stage of Europa 3 has about 200% the propellant capacity of the Blue Streak, yet consumes it at about 200% the rate. Meaning that a Europa 3 with Blue Streak Boosters will burnout its Core Stage and Boosters at the same time. Reason?
The core stage is slightly throttled to avoid it, but the staging of the boosters and core is relatively closely timed. They are more of a clustered first stage than conventional boosters.
It also sounds like they won't be getting a Manned Spacecraft of their own until at least the early-1990s. So the 80s in that regard would be taken up by paper plans and maybe some initial work. But at least that provides time to work on it.
That's basically how it stands at the moment, but this, the previous Japan update, and the other Japan update that's coming are basically to set the stage of where ESA and NASDA are in 1982 and what they've been planning so we can look at how those plans change with Vulkan.
 
I'm still leaning towards a four engine Griffin, even if there's room on the bottom for 5. In order to avoid the core burning out before the boosters in that case, it'd also mandate a core stretch of no less than 25%, which would complicate the booster attachment. It's a lot of complication, and I'm not convinced the payload increases justify it.

ok, it need about 25% more fuel, my error because i forgot the RZ2 need fuel. :eek:

E of pi, do you know the Original Ariane 5 design ?
not that was build, but the very first from 1980 Called Ariane 5R
it enlarge Ariane 44L first stage with Booster and two Lox/hydrogen upperstage.
the first stage L220 had 5 uprated Viking engine plus 4 Viking from L19 booster.
the center engine on L220 had work only a certain time, to give thrust for lift off and is shut down first.

but Ariane 5R was never taken because of concern about pogo and nor room for increase in performance.
while Hermes got bigger and more heavier, so Ariane 5R was drop for concept Ariane 5P.
who was also modified because Hermes exceed the 20 tons mark...
 
Part II: Post 3: President Reagan's Space Policy, Sagan Saves Probes, and VOIR
All right, it's Tuesday again, and I think we all know what that means! Today, we're bringing you the first in a series of updates covering the unmanned side of space exploration, all of them provided by truth is life following extensive digging around on NTRS and other sources, and I think the results speak for themselves. Today's post is more of an overview, almost everything covered will get more fully developed in later updates.

Eyes Turned Skyward, Part II: Post #3

In many ways, the Vulkan Panic of 1982-1983 saved the planetary exploration program, which had been under siege since the day of President Reagan's inauguration. Having campaigned on a program of fiscal austerity (aside from the military), Reagan was eager to start cutting "useless" programs from the budget, putting NASA on the spot. While cutting human spaceflight altogether was never seriously contemplated, and many of NASA's programs had too much practical value (or too invested a support base) to be at risk of death, the planetary exploration program was an entirely different matter. Planetary exploration, after all, has never offered many practical benefits, and with only two probes under development (the Galileo Jupiter orbiter and the CR/CF, later Kirchoff, comet mission), both at JPL, there was no real institutional support base outside of JPL itself for continued planetary exploration. Add the division of the planetary science community against itself, unlike the equally unpractical astronomical community, and it was no surprise that planetary science would be first to the chopping block in the event of cuts. The first shot across the bow of JPL was fired just weeks after Reagan's inauguration, when the OMB proposed broad cuts in the planetary exploration program for the upcoming FY 1982 budget. These would include the termination of the Pioneer Venus and Pioneer Mars extended missions; the abandonment of the Voyager extended missions (particularly for Voyagers 1 and 2, which had completed their primary Jupiter-Saturn flyby missions); no new planetary exploration starts for at least several years; and, last but certainly not least, the cancellation of one of the three major planetary development programs then under way, or in other words Galileo, Kirchoff, or the US component of the International Solar Polar mission (since Europe would presumably continue to supply the other component), which would involve a flyby of Jupiter to provide the boost into a very highly inclined solar orbit.

Planetary scientists responded with outrage to the proposals, particularly those which would cut operations funding to ongoing missions. However, the unwillingness of their professional bodies (the American Astronomical Society and the Division for Planetary Sciences of that organization) to become involved in politics and the employment of many planetary scientists at Ames or JPL blunted this outrage, which was dismissed as simply self-interested lobbying. Far more serious was the response of the California Congressional delegation, as all current and proposed planetary exploration missions originated either from Ames or JPL, both located in California, and both major Californian employers. The cuts proposed by the OMB, and their suggestions of follow-on cuts in later fiscal years, would be nearly tantamount to shutting down JPL (Ames was also highly involved in aeronautical work, and therefore would have come out better), at least after the Galileo and Kirchoff missions were launched and had completed their primary missions, something that delegates from both parties could wholeheartedly oppose. Given that Reagan had once been governor of California, this perhaps had a larger effect on him than might otherwise be expected, but it still would not have been enough to preserve the planetary exploration program without the intervention of Carl Sagan. As head of the National Space Organization, the largest space advocacy group in the world, he had a unique platform among proponents of planetary exploration for making his voice heard, and with the recent success of his miniseries "Cosmos," his voice would be loud indeed. After a special plea from Sagan to members of the organization, Congress and the White House were flooded with letters, telephone calls, and even telegrams supporting the planetary exploration program. As it became obvious that Congress would most likely counter any proposed cuts to NASA, the OMB grudgingly backed off from the proposal, although internally it still saw NASA and planetary exploration as major cutting targets in the FY 1983 or FY 1984 budgets.

Perhaps Sagan could have countered these proposals as well, despite becoming increasingly distant from the NSO's day-to-day activities and the decay of the fame afforded by "Cosmos"; in the event, he never had to, as the launch of Vulkan and the subsequent Soviet descriptions of its capabilities and purpose (to build a space station and perhaps enable future human lunar exploration) rekindled many of the old fires of the Space Race for a new era. Suddenly, space was no longer a distant and practically unimportant realm that could be neglected at will; instead, it was a battleground, a place where the Free World and the Soviet Menace could square off, the former proving once again its technical superiority over the latter. The net effect of all of this rhetoric was the total reversal of previous positions about NASA's funding, with the OMB proposing instead a substantial increase over the FY 1982 budget in FY 1983 rather than a substantial decrease. In fact, the single-year increase in NASA's budget was nearly unprecedented, at an almost 35% jump in real dollars funding compared to the FY 1981 or FY 1982 budgets. While the majority of the money would go towards new human spaceflight programs, particularly the development of a new space station to replace the aging Spacelab, a portion would go towards expanded scientific programs, including planetary exploration. As part of this expansion, a new mission, VOIR (for Venus Orbiting Imaging Radar) was proposed for a start in the FY 1983 budget. By putting a radar into Venus orbit, VOIR would be able to create a high-resolution (and partially stereo) map of virtually the entire surface of the planet, while a series of modifications and downscopes since the original conception of the probe had reduced its costs and development time to something manageable for JPL. This time, the NASA budget passed smoothly; while Congress slightly cut back on the increase of funding to NASA, to about a 20% increase in real dollars funding, they approved of President Reagan's start on what was now known as Space Station Freedom and of the continuation of planetary exploration at least into the 1990s.

The FY 1983 budget set a trend that continued well into the 1980s. Every year, the Soviets would do something that seemed possibly somewhat threatening in space, and every year the US would respond by further increasing the NASA budget, usually with a new planetary mission start included in the budget line. For the FY 1984 budget, the CIA's estimate that the Soviets would conduct a manned lunar landing by the mid 1990s spurred the approval of the Lunar Reconnaissance Pioneer; for FY 1985, the success of Mars 10 and 11 led to the approval of the Mars Reconnaissance Pioneer and the Mars Traverse Rovers; for FY 1986, the ongoing construction of Mir, the big new Soviet space station, allowed starting the Cassini Saturn System Mission; and, finally, in FY 1987, the start of work on the European Piazzi probe and the Soviet “Grand Tour” caused approval of the Near Earth Asteroid Pioneer. After FY 1987, NASA's budget stopped increasing so rapidly, as the agency was becoming saturated in terms of its technical and managerial capabilities, but it still peaked in 1989 at $12.5 billion then-year dollars, the largest budget ever for NASA in the post-lunar era up to that point. However, while this flood of money undoubtedly contributed to extending the Golden Age of space exploration through the 1980s, it also served to conceal many deficiencies in the entire planetary exploration program which would perhaps have been more obvious and therefore more easily rectified in more austere circumstances.
 
And since it's Tuesday, I get to see what else there is for TTL to offer. :)

I'm just going to say this now. The absolute biggest surprise I saw here was the Soviet Mars 10 & 11 Probes succeeding! :eek::eek: When you consider the very simple fact that IOTL, all Soviet/Russian Probes ever sent there failed, this is the absolute big shocker of this update.

Ah Russia, always being the biggest help to the US Space Programme. Their successes being the reason that funding in NASA has shot up during the Boom of the 80s.

That note about the concealing of deficiencies does intrigue me, however. And it does make me wonder what, exactly, there is to know.

In any case, though. Nice work from Truth and yourself. Guess it'll all be explained in the fullness of time.
 
I'm just going to say this now. The absolute biggest surprise I saw here was the Soviet Mars 10 & 11 Probes succeeding! :eek::eek: When you consider the very simple fact that IOTL, all Soviet/Russian Probes ever sent there failed, this is the absolute big shocker of this update.
There's about 2000 words on the subject of Soviet Mars missions coming in a later post. :)

That note about the concealing of deficiencies does intrigue me, however. And it does make me wonder what, exactly, there is to know.
Essentially, it's about money--OTL, accounting was lax and going over-budget was pretty commonplace--and it still is. However, some of the worst was reigned in after continued financial pressures. After all, if there's not enough money to go around, all the more reason to see that projects stay within the budget you can allow them. Here, with money flowing a bit more freely, those pressures aren't as intense and it'll be a little longer before anyone takes a hard look at things.
 
Last edited:
There's about 2000 words on the subject of Soviet Mars missions coming in a later post. :)

I'm gonna enjoy that! :D


Essentially, it's about money--OTL, accounting was lax and going over-budget was pretty commonplace--and it still is. However, some of the worst was reigned in after continued financial pressures. After all, if there's not enough money to go around, all the more reason to see that projects stay within the budget you can allow them. Here, with money flowing a bit more freely, those pressures aren't as intense and it'll be a little longer before anyone takes a hard look at things.

Makes sense. IIRC, Apollo went way overbudget, and the response was more money in. The rationale being that they had to win, and were prepared to allow overspend to make it happen. Seems to be largely the same here, though the consequences may be harsher when the Auditors come a-knocking.
 
on Part 3: yes yes yes !

One moment Soviet Mars 10 & 11 probe !
what happened with Mars 8 & 9 probe ?
in OTL the Mars program ended with Mars 4 to 7 fiasco.(because they used faulty Transistors in spacecraft electronics)

are Mars 10 & 11 successful version of Phobos fiasco (Phobos 1 kill by software error, Phobos 2 lost orientation after rotation)
if Mars 8 & 9 if not defined yet, then let them land in 1976 or 1978 for a landing missions to counter Viking.

future Soviet mars mission is this this proposal useful for the EtS?
http://www.astronautix.com/craft/mars5m.htm

on soviet Grand Tour, here some hardware proposal
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/spacecraft_planetary_plans.html
 
One moment Soviet Mars 10 & 11 probe !
what happened with Mars 8 & 9 probe ?
in OTL the Mars program ended with Mars 4 to 7 fiasco.(because they used faulty Transistors in spacecraft electronics)

are Mars 10 & 11 successful version of Phobos fiasco (Phobos 1 kill by software error, Phobos 2 lost orientation after rotation)
if Mars 8 & 9 if not defined yet, then let them land in 1976 or 1978 for a landing missions to counter Viking.

My guess, without Energia/Buran eating up 50% of their budget, they have more to spare for getting their equipment to work. That and Glushko got his dream job 18 months earlier than IOTL. So more time to get it right. As E said, an update concerning it will come later.
 
My guess, without Energia/Buran eating up 50% of their budget, they have more to spare for getting their equipment to work. That and Glushko got his dream job 18 months earlier than IOTL. So more time to get it right. As E said, an update concerning it will come later.

your absolute right about that.

on Soviet Grand Tour space probe
will they carry a soviet version of "bottle post", like Pioneer 11 & 12 and Voyager 1 to 4 ?
 
Yay, Cosmos!:D

Glad to see this avoided the butterflies. As a person very far removed from a STEM background, Cosmos is the main reason I'm on ETS's sidelines.

It would seem that the market might be ripe for a follow-up season ITTL. Sagan sort-of remastered it in the early 1990s, adding new info and some computer graphics, but I think a full, new run would be possible. Sagan might not be interested in the rigors of host duty, but he could keep a production credit.

He's got lots of famous friends who might do the job, but I wonder who the next-most charismatic scientist at the time was?
 
Yay, Cosmos!:D

Glad to see this avoided the butterflies. As a person very far removed from a STEM background, Cosmos is the main reason I'm on ETS's sidelines.

It would seem that the market might be ripe for a follow-up season ITTL. Sagan sort-of remastered it in the early 1990s, adding new info and some computer graphics, but I think a full, new run would be possible. Sagan might not be interested in the rigors of host duty, but he could keep a production credit.

He's got lots of famous friends who might do the job, but I wonder who the next-most charismatic scientist at the time was?

Carl Sagan "Cosmos" is wonderful, it gave me sense of wonder about the Solarsystem and the universe

if you don't know "Cosmos" check here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pa1ImgOcOPM

Now there will be a New version of "Cosmos" soon, but don't worry it host will be special: Neil deGrasse Tyson :cool:
Tyson over the actual space program
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbIZU8cQWXc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFO2usVjfQc&feature=fvwrel
 
Carl Sagan "Cosmos" is wonderful, it gave me sense of wonder about the Solarsystem and the universe

if you don't know "Cosmos" check here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pa1ImgOcOPM

Now there will be a New version of "Cosmos" soon, but don't worry it host will be special: Neil deGrasse Tyson :cool:
Tyson over the actual space program
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbIZU8cQWXc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFO2usVjfQc&feature=fvwrel

Yes, I'd heard about the new version, very exciting!

Another possibility here is maybe an earlier film production of Contact (assuming it wasn't butterflied,) which could in turn increase interest in ground-based observation/SETI.

And with that, I'm wondering if arrays and observatory funding might be an area that takes a hit in the US budget ITTL. After all, it has less to do with keeping up with the Smirnovs and it's not as politically-sensitive from a Congressional standpoint as the unmanned probes and drones are.

Wiki says Sagan used his influence to maintain funding for observatories and arrays IOTL, so maybe his increased influence helps again ITTL. Or maybe he spent his capital on probes and drones?

That said, if more of the world is interested in putting their money in space ITTL but they don't have the resources for a launch capability, funding observatories would be a great first step.
 
Neil deGrasse Tyson rocks, but if we're talkin' 'bout "Cosmos 1985" or something like that, he might be a tad bit young. How old is he, anyway?

Okay, he was born in '58. A year and a day after Sputnik!
 
Neil deGrasse Tyson rocks, but if we're talkin' 'bout "Cosmos 1985" or something like that, he might be a tad bit young. How old is he, anyway?
53. In 1985, he'd have been 27--a bit young, especially considering until 1983 he was still working on his masters in astronomy.
 
Good to see the Red Banner finally reaching the Red Planet. Also good to know that politicians, like bulls, will go mad when one just waves a red flag in their field of view. :)

While this post focuses on unmanned missions, one note caught my eye--Reagan approves Freedom ITTL as well. Will Freedom's initial design be a more limited laboratory design, a large Spacelab, or will it be that giant orbital shipyard/depot/warehouse/laboratory monstrosity proposed IOTL? It was the repeated redesigns that drove Freedom/ISS's costs into the billions before a single sheet of aluminum was cut, and it would be nice to avoid the cost overruns this time around. Also, if Freedom is assembled at a reasonable pace and cost, the US might manage to salvage the Superconducting Super Collider.

I've been away for a while, but I noticed a discussion on this thread about cyrogenic propellants replacing hypergollics sooner ITTL. Would that mean the largest interplanetary missions (Cassini, for example) will be launched on Saturn derivatives instead of Titan IV?
 
Top