Exit the Haze: Hitler – The Master strategist who resurrected Germany as a global power
- Thread starter Gudestein
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Ian_W
Banned
No. Really.
What arguments ?
So far, Im seeing "OF COURSE THE BRITISH WILL DO NOTHING ABOUT SPAIN SUPPLYING GERMAN WARSHIPS".
And thats the whole of the argument.
BlackDragon98
Banned
Your ignorance about real history (cortes, pizarro, etc.) shows your points are invalid.
Can someone plz call Calbear, Dom or Wheeler so we can get this thread moving in the right direction again?
I'm getting tired of repeating the same arguments while my opponent refuses to address them.
Well that was a rather poor shifiting of the goalposts. But lets play the ball for a minute.
Does have Britian the navy to blockade Spain? And if so, wouldnt this push Spain even more in the Axis camp?
Ian_W
Banned
Nope. Breastplates, helmets, horses, cannon and a whole bunch of local who were pissed off at genocide.
Ian_W
Banned
Yes, yes it does.
Yes, it does push it more into the Axis camp. But that just means it starves harder, so Germany needs to find about 7 divisions to garrison Spain with.
And they block off the western end of the Med, which means Britain cant use it. Which is a tragedy for the Allies, because Italy being part of the Axis means they can't use the Med anyway.
BlackDragon98
Banned
4 cannons with no hope of resupply because Cortes burn all the ships to prevent a mutiny.
Fun.
And Cortes was a wanted man. The Governor of Cuba sent an expedition to kill/capture him.
Ian_W
Banned
Preventing a mutiny is the #1 job of any commander of a Spanish army. Do you know the key unit in the Battle of the Dunes was officially on strike and mutinying ? Unofficially, they got passed a large bag of cash via the electo to pass to the men, who agreed they were refusing orders and would NOT listen to officers, but never the less, they would, as a personal favour to the General, who is doing his very best to get them paid, show up and listen to the "suggestions" of the officers, and follow them if they felt like it. Because if they were following orders, then this wouldn't be much of a mutiny, right ?
Are you really sure about this? Because now the Royal Navy has to blockade pretty much all of Europe sans Portugal. From the Nordkap to the Biskaya. This would even stretch British naval forces.
Which percentage of food did Spain import & why cant Germany with all of Europe at its kneel cant replace this imports? They certainly did it with France and the Benelux, by starving Eastern Europe, which was part of their longtime goals.
So all of this leads to Spain in the Axis camp, the western Mediterranean Sea becoming an Axis lake & British forces being even more stretched......
If I wouldnt know better I would assume that the Idiot pushing for a blockade of Spain wants to help Hitler & Germany.
This reminds me so much of that guy many years ago, who'd go to every ACW thread and argue endlessly about how the Confederacy couldn't win no matter what.
BlackDragon98
Banned
Funny enough, the Confed were kind of like the Nazis in the way that if they couldn't achieve a fast win, then they were going to lose sooner or later.
Femto
Banned
Yeah, he was. In fact, a Confederate Victory is more likely than a Nazi one. Its much more easy for you to have a civil war ending in an uneasy peace scenario than a world war.
Chapter 18: German strategic consideration early fall 1941.
Chapter 18: German strategic consideration early fall 1941.
Strategic warfare: In the fall of 1941, increased British air coverage over the western approaches and tighter convoy defense had started to make the life of the submariners ever more perilous, and Dönitz had pushed for taking the war into the mid-Atlantic. Hitler had refused him, and insisted that all focus would be on the South-Atlantic and Indian Ocean routes. The type IIV’s would be partially recalled for training (only sufficiently active to force the use of convoys), and temporarily for the South-Atlantic and the future belonged to the type IX’s and the coming generation of electroboote of which the first prototypes would see testing in 1942.
There were to be no incidences with American warships, and the British would be bled trying to resupply their African campaign. The fall of 1941 was also the time when the Luftwaffe initiated their strategic bombing campaign against the Soviet Union. First operation Eisenhammer against power supply in the Moscow region, then bombing of concentrated armaments production facilities deep in the Russian interior. With only 3 squadrons of He-177B and two of Do219 for the job initially, there were plenty of targets, but the Soviets had few defenses against this kind of bombing campaign, and the number of bombers would be ever growing.
In the capture Soviet Union lands: The Germans also saw themselves as the capturers of several intact armaments production plants. The aircraft factories would be put to the task of replacing the transportverband losses (JU-52’s), and produce ever larger swarms of Hs-123’s, while the tank factories in Odessa would take the new VK20 tank into production with its 75mm L/42 gun. In Leningrad, assembly lines capable of producing KV-1/2’s and T-34 tanks were captured and here the Germans maintained production of KV’s either the KV2 variant or the KV1 with a German 75mm L48 gun. In all cases, German radios, optics and a German commander’s cupola were fitted.
The decision to produce the VK30.02(DB) design was accelerated by the capture of the Leningrad factory, as this was clearly already well suited to the task. In the interim, the Leningrad factory was used to turn out production models of the Panzer IV with a cast front plate.
Capture of gun factories also allowed the Germans to sell more anti-tank weapons for their allies, which greatly strengthened the resilience of their forces*
The fall of Kiev precipitated the clearest hints of the brutality the Nazi regime was willing to impose on the Ukrainians. As the city was gutted of essential infrastructure and factories, it presented a limited strategic value to the Wehrmacht and it had many months to feed. In consequence, more than a million people was forcibly moved westwards to work in the German re-armaments industry were many would perish over the next years, and among the 500000 PoW’s taken around Kiev, 200000 Russians were starved to death during forced marches.
Politically, this was also a time were Hitler repeatedly appealed to the Japanese ambassador to join the fight against the Soviet Union, and were repeatedly rebuffed. Hitler at this point in time, started to expect that the Anglo-American embargo of Japan had persuaded the Japanese to turn south and he warned the Japanese ambassador against committing the error of awakening the slumbering giant. In a crucial note, he made it clear that such an act would betray the spirit of the anti-comintern pact as it would draw in America on the side of the Soviet Union, and that Germany would do its utmost to prevent this outcome.
Looking back, there is no question that Hitler foresaw the geopolitical implications of a potential Japanese/American conflict, and the German ambassador in Washington was instructed to give interviews in the American press. Now legendarily, Hitler gave an interview to the New York Times were he explained Germany’s position as the only ones taking up the cross of defending the world against communism, and this was Germany’s only strategic ambition. The occupation of Western Europe, Denmark and Norway would be gradually lifted once Britain stopped its foolish attempts at protecting the red menace. Indeed, all the British were doing was to perform bomb raids on the poor Frenchmen who had long time ago aligned themselves with the Germans security measures, and German civilians.
This latter was entirely true as the British had frustrated themselves in their locked in North-African campaign and initiated a night bombing campaign against German cities. Here Hitler instructed that documentation should be given the highest priority and news films released across the Atlantic documenting the civilian losses to the savage British attacks.
Strategic warfare: In the fall of 1941, increased British air coverage over the western approaches and tighter convoy defense had started to make the life of the submariners ever more perilous, and Dönitz had pushed for taking the war into the mid-Atlantic. Hitler had refused him, and insisted that all focus would be on the South-Atlantic and Indian Ocean routes. The type IIV’s would be partially recalled for training (only sufficiently active to force the use of convoys), and temporarily for the South-Atlantic and the future belonged to the type IX’s and the coming generation of electroboote of which the first prototypes would see testing in 1942.
There were to be no incidences with American warships, and the British would be bled trying to resupply their African campaign. The fall of 1941 was also the time when the Luftwaffe initiated their strategic bombing campaign against the Soviet Union. First operation Eisenhammer against power supply in the Moscow region, then bombing of concentrated armaments production facilities deep in the Russian interior. With only 3 squadrons of He-177B and two of Do219 for the job initially, there were plenty of targets, but the Soviets had few defenses against this kind of bombing campaign, and the number of bombers would be ever growing.
In the capture Soviet Union lands: The Germans also saw themselves as the capturers of several intact armaments production plants. The aircraft factories would be put to the task of replacing the transportverband losses (JU-52’s), and produce ever larger swarms of Hs-123’s, while the tank factories in Odessa would take the new VK20 tank into production with its 75mm L/42 gun. In Leningrad, assembly lines capable of producing KV-1/2’s and T-34 tanks were captured and here the Germans maintained production of KV’s either the KV2 variant or the KV1 with a German 75mm L48 gun. In all cases, German radios, optics and a German commander’s cupola were fitted.
The decision to produce the VK30.02(DB) design was accelerated by the capture of the Leningrad factory, as this was clearly already well suited to the task. In the interim, the Leningrad factory was used to turn out production models of the Panzer IV with a cast front plate.
Capture of gun factories also allowed the Germans to sell more anti-tank weapons for their allies, which greatly strengthened the resilience of their forces*
The fall of Kiev precipitated the clearest hints of the brutality the Nazi regime was willing to impose on the Ukrainians. As the city was gutted of essential infrastructure and factories, it presented a limited strategic value to the Wehrmacht and it had many months to feed. In consequence, more than a million people was forcibly moved westwards to work in the German re-armaments industry were many would perish over the next years, and among the 500000 PoW’s taken around Kiev, 200000 Russians were starved to death during forced marches.
Politically, this was also a time were Hitler repeatedly appealed to the Japanese ambassador to join the fight against the Soviet Union, and were repeatedly rebuffed. Hitler at this point in time, started to expect that the Anglo-American embargo of Japan had persuaded the Japanese to turn south and he warned the Japanese ambassador against committing the error of awakening the slumbering giant. In a crucial note, he made it clear that such an act would betray the spirit of the anti-comintern pact as it would draw in America on the side of the Soviet Union, and that Germany would do its utmost to prevent this outcome.
Looking back, there is no question that Hitler foresaw the geopolitical implications of a potential Japanese/American conflict, and the German ambassador in Washington was instructed to give interviews in the American press. Now legendarily, Hitler gave an interview to the New York Times were he explained Germany’s position as the only ones taking up the cross of defending the world against communism, and this was Germany’s only strategic ambition. The occupation of Western Europe, Denmark and Norway would be gradually lifted once Britain stopped its foolish attempts at protecting the red menace. Indeed, all the British were doing was to perform bomb raids on the poor Frenchmen who had long time ago aligned themselves with the Germans security measures, and German civilians.
This latter was entirely true as the British had frustrated themselves in their locked in North-African campaign and initiated a night bombing campaign against German cities. Here Hitler instructed that documentation should be given the highest priority and news films released across the Atlantic documenting the civilian losses to the savage British attacks.
Good to be back in 1941, and indeed, it is not an easy situation the Germans have themselves in. Still, I find this POD strangely fruitfull.
For all his madness Hitler clearly labelled the US as the ultimate enemy IOTL, already in his Zweites Buch, so I wonder how far fetched all this is given the circumstances of the POD.
The rearmamant activities oulined in the last update are initiated at this time and will not have an effect before later, perhaps with the partial exception of the continued production of KV tanks. It will have an earlier effect that he Soviets do not have these factories.
Overall, the oil embargo on Japan is moved up two months so the big events are set in motion.
For all his madness Hitler clearly labelled the US as the ultimate enemy IOTL, already in his Zweites Buch, so I wonder how far fetched all this is given the circumstances of the POD.
The rearmamant activities oulined in the last update are initiated at this time and will not have an effect before later, perhaps with the partial exception of the continued production of KV tanks. It will have an earlier effect that he Soviets do not have these factories.
Overall, the oil embargo on Japan is moved up two months so the big events are set in motion.
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IOTL the Japanese felt out the Germans on the possibility of them joining in a war against the US, Hitler reportedly told the Japanese ambassador that if the US declared war on Japan Germany would in turn declare war on the US.
In this scenario where Hitler has flatly told the Japanese that Germany will not get involved in any war with the US, Japan may not attack Pearl Harbor IMO.
In this scenario where Hitler has flatly told the Japanese that Germany will not get involved in any war with the US, Japan may not attack Pearl Harbor IMO.
Chapter 19: Setting the scene.
Chapter 19: Setting the scene.
In August the German acted true to their plan of fighting winnable battles with air supremacy while their logistics were being reestablished. Thus, on August 11th, the Germans led by the 3rd Panzer group struck North-East from Vjaz’ma, rather than the expected drive east towards towards Moscow and reached Kalinin on the 16th, thereby collapsing the soviet North-western front which defended against the German attacking from Leningrad. 200000 Soviet soldiers fell or were captured in the pocket and Germany could now supply the norther parts of AGC, re-inforced with troops from AGN, by shipping to Leningrad and then via rail towards Kalinin. A second offensive took place when the 4th Panzer group struck south-east on the 16th, again out of Vjaz’ma and succeeded in reaching Tula on the 20th of August. These maneuvers placed 3rd and 4th army group in excellent position for an encirclement of Moscow, and they would in consequence suffer vicious counterattacks. 3rd Panzer group would survive these virtually unscathed as the 18th army took up the defensive positions while the 9th army would soon supplement the 4th Panzer group in Tula.
The focus towards Moscow meant that a large salient was left around Kursk, which needed to be liquidated before the winter to shorten the front lines. This was achieved by an eastward drive from Guderians 2nd army group, which, uncommonly for this stage of the war drew on a poor logistical base, but also faced marginal opposition, and then a drive south towards Kharkov..
In the South, Kleist’s armor and Rommels refitted division had taken position east of Dnepropetrovsk, and it was decided to approach Kharkow from the south. This resulted in the fall of Kharkov on August 20th, although with much of the industry already evacuated.
The capture of the important railroad center in Kharkov allowed the 2nd Panzer army to backtrack and link up with AGC in Tula by the end of August while the already present 4th Panzer group in the mean-time managed to progress 50 km to the North-east of Tula. The 4th Panzer group were here 100 km south of Moscow and 20 km to the east of Moscow.
Further North, the 3rd Panzer group attacked east towards Kimri and established a bridgehead on the east bank of the Volga river. These forces were now 100 km due north of Moscow.
Kleist’s Panzer group did not lay idle following the capture of Kharkov either. While the infantry established defensive positions in Kharkov, the Panzer’s finally moved east again, this time south east towards Lugansk while the 12th army resumed its offensive on the north bank of the Black sea. These two army would later complete an encirclement of around Lugansk when they linked up and encircled 250000 Soviet soldiers of the Southern Front.
The Crimean and the black sea: Throughout July and August, the Romanians army had been tasked with supporting the German 12th army and with the attack on the Crimean Peninsula. From bases along the Black Sea shore, the German e-boats, Marinefährpramen and submarines, supplemented by Fi-167’s fought a brave struggle to eliminate the Soviet black sea fleet as a fighting force, and they had made great stride in doing so. Nevertheless, resupply of the base in Sevastopol did still take place until mid-August when the Luftwaffe landed thousands of paratroopers and tanks using Marinefährpramen behind the Soviet defenders and thus collapsed the Soviet defense to the Sevastopol fortifications. The Germans now initiated a tight siege around Sevastopol, and established railroad lines that would enable heavy German siege artillery (Schweere Gustav) to gradually destroy the defenses.
Edit performed: Caspian sea was written when it should have been black sea
In August the German acted true to their plan of fighting winnable battles with air supremacy while their logistics were being reestablished. Thus, on August 11th, the Germans led by the 3rd Panzer group struck North-East from Vjaz’ma, rather than the expected drive east towards towards Moscow and reached Kalinin on the 16th, thereby collapsing the soviet North-western front which defended against the German attacking from Leningrad. 200000 Soviet soldiers fell or were captured in the pocket and Germany could now supply the norther parts of AGC, re-inforced with troops from AGN, by shipping to Leningrad and then via rail towards Kalinin. A second offensive took place when the 4th Panzer group struck south-east on the 16th, again out of Vjaz’ma and succeeded in reaching Tula on the 20th of August. These maneuvers placed 3rd and 4th army group in excellent position for an encirclement of Moscow, and they would in consequence suffer vicious counterattacks. 3rd Panzer group would survive these virtually unscathed as the 18th army took up the defensive positions while the 9th army would soon supplement the 4th Panzer group in Tula.
The focus towards Moscow meant that a large salient was left around Kursk, which needed to be liquidated before the winter to shorten the front lines. This was achieved by an eastward drive from Guderians 2nd army group, which, uncommonly for this stage of the war drew on a poor logistical base, but also faced marginal opposition, and then a drive south towards Kharkov..
In the South, Kleist’s armor and Rommels refitted division had taken position east of Dnepropetrovsk, and it was decided to approach Kharkow from the south. This resulted in the fall of Kharkov on August 20th, although with much of the industry already evacuated.
The capture of the important railroad center in Kharkov allowed the 2nd Panzer army to backtrack and link up with AGC in Tula by the end of August while the already present 4th Panzer group in the mean-time managed to progress 50 km to the North-east of Tula. The 4th Panzer group were here 100 km south of Moscow and 20 km to the east of Moscow.
Further North, the 3rd Panzer group attacked east towards Kimri and established a bridgehead on the east bank of the Volga river. These forces were now 100 km due north of Moscow.
Kleist’s Panzer group did not lay idle following the capture of Kharkov either. While the infantry established defensive positions in Kharkov, the Panzer’s finally moved east again, this time south east towards Lugansk while the 12th army resumed its offensive on the north bank of the Black sea. These two army would later complete an encirclement of around Lugansk when they linked up and encircled 250000 Soviet soldiers of the Southern Front.
The Crimean and the black sea: Throughout July and August, the Romanians army had been tasked with supporting the German 12th army and with the attack on the Crimean Peninsula. From bases along the Black Sea shore, the German e-boats, Marinefährpramen and submarines, supplemented by Fi-167’s fought a brave struggle to eliminate the Soviet black sea fleet as a fighting force, and they had made great stride in doing so. Nevertheless, resupply of the base in Sevastopol did still take place until mid-August when the Luftwaffe landed thousands of paratroopers and tanks using Marinefährpramen behind the Soviet defenders and thus collapsed the Soviet defense to the Sevastopol fortifications. The Germans now initiated a tight siege around Sevastopol, and established railroad lines that would enable heavy German siege artillery (Schweere Gustav) to gradually destroy the defenses.
Edit performed: Caspian sea was written when it should have been black sea
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