Exit the Haze: Hitler – The Master strategist who resurrected Germany as a global power

[cortz#9]

I'm sorry, I don't understand how this remotely answers my criticism. It again continues to not logically follow; why would the Nazis joke about themselves in the third person? Why would they joke about something they would either be bragging about or desperate to hide at all costs? How is this even a joke?

I've been on the form for a while, and it seems like most if not all of your TLs follow the similar idea: something happens to Hitler, the German armed forces, or Germany; the German army effortlessly crushes all before them; the world stands there, grinning, saying "I like cheese!"

I don't have a problem with a TL about the Nazis winning, or Hitler being a different person. I don't necessarily have a problem with Notzis or Notler if written well or with a sufficient POD (see Dorogan's TL "Pax Germanica" where Hitler getting a huge blow to the end makes him sane and rational in 1934). Hell, I don't even have a problem with TLs that show the German armed forces as the protagonist; a lot of the OTL battles make for great drama, and the Bismarck chase is one of my favorite sagas of the war. But you are neglecting a very, very, VERY key issue in this and other TLs: just how much the politics and personal beliefs of Hitler informed Nazi policy and the behavior of the armed forces. They are inseparable. Refusing to acknowledge that racial policy goes hand in hand with military action for the Wehrmacht is not an accurate accounting of history.

If I were you, I'd scrub this TL and do one focused on what seems to interest you: the kit, weapons, and vehicles of the Wehrmacht in a world where they did better or won. That way, the disinterest in the genocidal aspects of the world being created would be more explainable.

Or, I would start with a much earlier POD. Here's one I considered on my walk today: suppose Hitler had a mentor in his youth. Someone that instilled in him a level of intellectual curiosity and a strong work ethic. So, instead of the Hitler of OTL, a lazy disinterested dreamer who blames everything on others, you have a driven, intelligent man who's able to work a crowd, probably because he empathizes with his fellow man having worked hard to get where he is. His WWI experience, as with the world, is the same, so he would be still upset and angry - but probably at the "right" people and things. A Hitler who's rational, clever and charismatic might still get to power and still reshape the world - and the German army. And, I'd argue, be a very dangerous man.

There. You can now build a world where the German army can be supreme, and not have to deal with the genocidal aspects.

Your idea for a TL reminds me of a short story where Hitler joins the navy in WWI and an officer takes him under his wing and instills in Hitler a sense of discipline and camaraderie with all German naval personal regardless of race or religion.
Its a good story called "The Little Admiral" by Wade G. Dudly from the book "Third Reich Victorious"

 

[Resurgam]

Your idea for a TL reminds me of a short story where Hitler joins the navy in WWI and an officer takes him under his wing and instills in Hitler a sense of discipline and camaraderie with all German naval personal regardless of race or religion.
Its a good story called "The Little Admiral" by Wade G. Dudly from the book "Third Reich Victorious"

Yeah, I've read it, but a long time ago. Though IIRC doesn't he get fanatically genocidal towards the British because they killed said officer?

 

[steamboy]

I've never heard anything about Rosenberg being Jewish. He got a lot of grief for the last name, but I don't know of any evidence that he was Jewish. Also, Rosenberg himself was fanatically anti-Semitic, so we'd be back where we started.

Its probably the surname thing that makes folks think he was actually Jewish, and yeah good point, I forgot how nuts he was too. So AU Rosenberg (perhaps an actually Jewish one) inspires hitler with talks about Greater Germania or something. I just used him as a name becuase he was someone Hitler was inspired by. But your idea for a mentor or something to inspire/direct/guide Adolf would be best than "I'm not saying its Holocaust denial buuuuuuuuuuuuuuut....."

 

[Resurgam]

Its probably the surname thing that makes folks think he was actually Jewish, and yeah good point, I forgot how nuts he was too. So AU Rosenberg (perhaps an actually Jewish one) inspires hitler with talks about Greater Germania or something. I just used him as a name becuase he was someone Hitler was inspired by. But your idea for a mentor or something to inspire/direct/guide Adolf would be best than "I'm not saying its Holocaust denial buuuuuuuuuuuuuuut....."

You'd need to get Hitler when he was young. All of the people who would influence him after the war are fanatically anti-Semitic, anti-Slav, etc.

 

[cortz#9]

Yeah, I've read it, but a long time ago. Though IIRC doesn't he get fanatically genocidal towards the British because they killed said officer?

Yeah he does big time and its this hatred that focuses his energies to defeating the UK and in the end winning the war.

 

[Gudestein]

You'd need to get Hitler when he was young. All of the people who would influence him after the war are fanatically anti-Semitic, anti-Slav, etc.

He was anti-semitic a quite a young age, but the lebensraum stuff was introduced to him throguh Rudolf Hess.
ITTL I have gone with his paranoid belief that there is a Jewish conspiracy based in America. IOTL this belief was the match that lit the endlosung bonfire, because the US went to war (de facto), despite Hitler having the 6 million hostages. ITTL, the same match doesnt apply, and the re-settlement plans could have a chance.

However, the Hitler ITTL have tried to appear better than the Soviets to the people of the Baltic and the Ukraine for purely military purposes, but he still have to deal with millions of people in Eastern Europe eating the food he would prefer to ship back to the Reich. He therefore implements a concealed mass murder system very much similar to the OTL anti-Jewish mass murder industry, but this time against people not fit for slavery in the Soviet Union.
He is not a sanitized Hitler at all and will ITTL manage to be responsible for more murders than OTL Hitler.

 

[Gudestein]

Chapter 34: Asian campaign February to June 1942.

The first quarter of 1942 in the pacific saw the tide turn decisively against Japan. German submarine mercilessly attacked Japanese convoys heading for Sumatra and Java and the German task force intercepted a guarded convoy of Japanese ships resulting in the sinking of a Japanese destroyer, a cruiser and 7 merchant ships. In the East, the Japanese planned a decisive battle with the US fleet, which was fought in the Philipine seas as the last US forces awaited re-enforcements and again, a tactical draw with one US carrier sunk and two Japanese carriers was a strategic disaster for Japan. Low on fuel, the Kido Butai had to withdraw and the Americans were capable of resupplying McArthur’s forces on the Bataan peninsula. Similarly, the inability to maintain control in the waters outside Singapore meant that British forces were not driven of Sumatra, and the supply lines were kept open into Singapore. Considering that this was the period were the Japanese planned a lightning war, a strategic disaster was already manifest. The flank threat of the Philipines remained. The oil had not been completely secured and the city of Singapore was still there as the main Allied axis supply hub. From now on, it would only get worse.

 

[Gudestein]

Chapter 35: Case Blue. Eastern front May 12th to June 5th.
The eastern front in the Soviet Union was relatively static with sporadic Soviet counter attacks until May 12 were a strategic Soviet attack was made in the direction of Lugansk-> Donetsk -> Mariupol with the ambition to seal of the German salient at Rostov. Despite an immense effort of 525.000 soldiers and close to a thousand tanks, the attack was soon swamped in an immense swarm of Luftwaffe CAS aircraft and rapidly established complete German air supremacy. Little had the STAVKA anticipated that they attacked into the center of the most powerful thrust of this year’s Gernan summer offensive. The attack was handled by the German forces at Lugansk, while the Germans as planned attack south out of Rostov towards Krasnodorsk (towards the German bridgehead at Novorossijsk) also on the 12th of May. Krasnodorsk was reached 6 days later while Maikop fell to a German paratrooper assault, aiming to claim the oil fields intact and largely succeeding in this. From Majkop, the Germans headed south and captured Sotji on the 25th of May after which the Germans only had 300 km to the Turkish border on the Black Sea shore, but this was mountainous terrain and the Germans only managed 50 km’s of progress over the following 10 days.
The planned East-South-East attack from Rostov towards Caspian Sea was delayed by the Russian counterattack until air supremacy was achieved, but they went ahead on the 20th of May, punching cleanly through the by now weakest point of the Soviet defense and reached the Caspian sea on the 5th of June, a 450 km advance enabled in 15 days.
The Attack from Lugansk towards Stalingrad was delayed for a full three weeks and would not commense until the 3rd of May, after having killed, wounded and captured 300000 Russian soldiers in the utterly failed second-battle of Lugansk*.
Further north, the new AGC initiated its attack on schedule on the 12th of May and thrust straight from Kursk in the direction of Voronezh. As the least armored of the 3 army group, the advances were less spectacular, but AGB nevertheless managed a 200 km advance and liquidation of the opposition in Voronezh by the 5th of June.
AGN also leaped into action on the 12th of May. From jump-off positions in Vladimir and Ryazan, the Germans had only 220 km to the fist strategic objective at Nisjnij Novgorod which was taken on the march on May 22nd by the 3rd Panzer army from the strike out of Vladimir, while the Ryazan strike with the 4th Panzer army captured Sarov due east, before turning north and linking up with the 3rd Panzer army at Kstovo on May 25th. These maneuvers created a 500000 soldier pocket centered around Vyksa, which was virtually liquidated on June 5th.

*Second battle of Lugansk is TTL equivalent to OTL second battle of Kharkov

 

[Resurgam]

He was anti-semitic a quite a young age, but the lebensraum stuff was introduced to him throguh Rudolf Hess.

Debatable. He was probably "standard" anti-Semitic at a young age, but the all-consuming level we know him for came in Vienna at the earliest and postwar and the latest. Hess definitely is influential on the lebensraum stuff, though.

ITTL I have gone with his paranoid belief that there is a Jewish conspiracy based in America. IOTL this belief was the match that lit the endlosung bonfire, because the US went to war (de facto), despite Hitler having the 6 million hostages. ITTL, the same match doesnt apply, and the re-settlement plans could have a chance.

What? Why? That makes no sense. We know Hitler's thinking about America - well before your POD. He looked approvingly at how America dealt with the native population. He marveled at how the best and brightest Aryan stock were there. He maintained in Second Book the grand battle royal for the fate of the world would be between America and Germany. He doesn't think America is overrun by Jews until late 1941 - after your POD.

And... isn't he allied with America right now?!

However, the Hitler ITTL have tried to appear better than the Soviets to the people of the Baltic and the Ukraine for purely military purposes, but he still have to deal with millions of people in Eastern Europe eating the food he would prefer to ship back to the Reich. He therefore implements a concealed mass murder system very much similar to the OTL anti-Jewish mass murder industry, but this time against people not fit for slavery in the Soviet Union.

Why isn't he just shooting everybody and taking the food back to Germany? That would also be "strategic" - and in character.

And no, this doesn't wash. Hitler's feelings on Slavs, communism, and the east were very, very deeply entrenched at this point. They wouldn't magically change because he put down Morell's doobies. Even if stopping drugs did clear his head - even though we have discussed in depth that at this point it would not have been an issue - I can't WSD him putting aside the racial and political beliefs that have animated his entire career because Hitler wouldn't do that.

He is not a sanitized Hitler at all and will ITTL manage to be responsible for more murders than OTL Hitler.

No, he's just a super genius as the world effortlessly falls before or falls in line.

 

[ferdi254]

OTL, they started in the fall of 1941, and the main problem has been the deteriorating logistics

No that is a myth! The main problem that you could not solve starting June 1940 was the number of sheep. No way you suddenly can quadruple the number of sheep in Germany. Like with the harbors and the logistics in North Africa you simply brush problems aside. Face it Germany did NOT have the possibility to

a) do a successful Barbarossa
b) get winter clothing to the soldiers in the USSR
c) at the same time lavishly equip North Africa.

Unless of course you have an ASB dropping something like 250k skilled workers, 100 k tons of high quality steel, 500k tons of coal, 500 k tons of fuel AND 12 million sheep AND 5 million cows on Germany. And of course all the facilities to get this worked through meaning another 200k skilled workers, a couple 100k workyears of industrial equipment a couple 100 k tons of fuel...
No way any decision Hitler did in June 1940 could solve the two latter problems biology simply has some limits.

 

[SsgtC]

and the re-settlement plans could have a chance.

There was no "resettlement plan." It was explicitly a plan to kill every Jew sent there. This is nothing more than borderline Holocaust denial

 

[Gudestein]

And... isn't he allied with America right now?!
Why isn't he just shooting everybody and taking the food back to Germany? That would also be "strategic" - and in character.

The de facto alliance with america is why the Jews get to live
He is not just shooting everybody in Ukraine because it might tip off the Ukrainians that the Germans dont like them. So they get invited to work and their families too, and neither returns.

 

[Resurgam]

The de facto alliance with america is why the Jews get to live

OTL, Germany was allied with Finland (a democratic country). Didn't seem to help the Jews much.

He is not just shooting everybody in Ukraine because it might tip off the Ukrainians that the Germans dont like them. So they get invited to work and their families too, and neither returns.

...and no one returning from work, with no letters home, and the inevitable leaks and rumors wouldn't also make Ukrainians think something is up?

 

[steamboy]

There was no "resettlement plan." It was explicitly a plan to kill every Jew sent there. This is nothing more than borderline Holocaust denial

To quote Conspiracy.
I have the real feeling I 'evacuated 30,000 Jews at Riga, by shooting them. Is what I did 'evacuation' when they fell where they 'evacuated' there are another 20,000 at least waiting for similar 'evacuation'

That's the Resettlement plan. And the OP's saying that some farcical resettlement plan that didn't exist, beyond annihilating them, could work.

 

[Cymraeg]

He was anti-semitic a quite a young age, but the lebensraum stuff was introduced to him throguh Rudolf Hess.
ITTL I have gone with his paranoid belief that there is a Jewish conspiracy based in America. IOTL this belief was the match that lit the endlosung bonfire, because the US went to war (de facto), despite Hitler having the 6 million hostages. ITTL, the same match doesnt apply, and the re-settlement plans could have a chance.

However, the Hitler ITTL have tried to appear better than the Soviets to the people of the Baltic and the Ukraine for purely military purposes, but he still have to deal with millions of people in Eastern Europe eating the food he would prefer to ship back to the Reich. He therefore implements a concealed mass murder system very much similar to the OTL anti-Jewish mass murder industry, but this time against people not fit for slavery in the Soviet Union.
He is not a sanitized Hitler at all and will ITTL manage to be responsible for more murders than OTL Hitler.

Let me make something extremely clear to you. The 'resettlement plan' is basically genocide. It's a slower genocide than the gas chambers, but it's still genocide. You cannot dump a million people in an area with the infrastructure for 50,000 and then expect them to magically build/grow everything they need. That goes against basic reality. They will die, in the tens of thousands, before the aghast eyes of the world.
Hitler was a racist and an anti-Semite from a fairly young age. He regarded the Slavs as sub-human. The plan, if you can call his ravings that, was to create a huge German colony in Russia, where the Russians would be taught just enough to allow them to read road signs and not wander onto said roads and damage good German cars with their bodies. He did not care about the tender sensibilities of the Ukrainians in OTL and I see no reason why he would in this.
You are making him someone he never was in reality.

 

[Garrison]

The de facto alliance with america is why the Jews get to live
He is not just shooting everybody in Ukraine because it might tip off the Ukrainians that the Germans dont like them. So they get invited to work and their families too, and neither returns.

And now you seem to be suggesting the resettlement plan is somehow letting the Jews live, perhaps you should do some reading up on the Madagascar Plan, before being so glib about it?

 

[steamboy]

And now you seem to be suggesting the resettlement plan is somehow letting the Jews live, perhaps you should do some reading up on the Madagascar Plan, before being so glib about it?

Ahh but this is TTL's Good Mr Hitler. He does not want the jews to die, he just wants them to go away.......

 

[Garrison]

He was anti-semitic a quite a young age, but the lebensraum stuff was introduced to him throguh Rudolf Hess.
ITTL I have gone with his paranoid belief that there is a Jewish conspiracy based in America. IOTL this belief was the match that lit the endlosung bonfire, because the US went to war (de facto), despite Hitler having the 6 million hostages. ITTL, the same match doesnt apply, and the re-settlement plans could have a chance.

So the Holocaust was the Americans fault? Because the utterly impossible resettlement plan wasn't just a cover for mass murder?

 

[Garrison]

Let me make something extremely clear to you. The 'resettlement plan' is basically genocide. It's a slower genocide than the gas chambers, but it's still genocide. You cannot dump a million people in an area with the infrastructure for 50,000 and then expect them to magically build/grow everything they need. That goes against basic reality. They will die, in the tens of thousands, before the aghast eyes of the world.

Not to mention how do you even move that many people in the first place without killing huge numbers of them?

 

[steamboy]

Not to mention how do you even move that many people in the first place without killing huge numbers of them?

I'd assume that it would be liners/passenger boats through the Red Sea once the Suez Canal is captured (if that's not happened already because of course it has). The Germans either load them up onto ships in massive overcrowding conditions and sail them round and down or they sail their ships empty from Germany, past Gibraltar, Malta etc, dock the in italy and wait for the cargo to arrive. Those that survive being put on cattle carts that is.

But with this love letter/idealised Hitler I'm sure they're taken in first Class aboard the Liner Bremen and Rex (from Italy) and that the UK will gladly donate their liners to help with this peaceful, friendly, happy resettlement and that the Germans have kindly already set up farms and houses on Madagasgar for just this event for their long, long holiday.