Exit the Haze: Hitler – The Master strategist who resurrected Germany as a global power

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For anybody intrested:


A German movie about the Wanseekonferenz & in my opionion much superior movie compared to Conspiracy from 2001. Sadly I cant find it whith subtitles. Nevertheless, I thought I share it.
 
I've a German friend and he's said this movie's very good, and terrifying because of the way its just being discussed. This is a board meeting, with fine wine and good cigars and lovely food. At which the extermination of millions was organised and planned for.

Conspiracy's also a very good movie, Brannagh was superb as Heydrich, and whilst I can't speak German well enough to fully understand them, I assume the two films are basically similar in dialogue but the German one's more detailed?
 
I've a German friend and he's said this movie's very good, and terrifying because of the way its just being discussed. This is a board meeting, with fine wine and good cigars and lovely food. At which the extermination of millions was organised and planned for.

Conspiracy's also a very good movie, Brannagh was superb as Heydrich, and whilst I can't speak German well enough to fully understand them, I assume the two films are basically similar in dialogue but the German one's more detailed?
Your German friend nailed it pretty good. Conspiracy is an okay movie in my opinion. But it has some problems, there are minor ones & what I believe big ones:

The Nazis dont act like Nazis, they act like what Hollywood believe Nazis acted like. There is this Herrenmenschengehabe, which is hard to translate. But its a certain way of behaviour. Pluckiness, grit I dont know the exact adjectives. But Conspiracy utterly failed to translate it. There is this scene where Eichmann scolds an adjutant for droping something & threatens him, if I remember this right even to shoot him. The only thing lacking at this moment was him twirling his mustache and asking for sharks with lasers.
So what is the purpose of this scene? It communicates to the viewers that the Nazis are assholes. For me this is an utterly cheap storytelling tool. Through the movie pretty much all of them are dicks to each other. They are unfriendly & unpleasant to look at. Not only in their personal behaviour but their physical appearance. Sans Brannagh and some other fews of course. To me it looks like the producers werent satisfied with the evilness of National Socialism alone, no they had to make clear: These people, these Aryan Supermen are weak, feeble and ugly humans. Look at this moviewatcher: Nazis are shit! The thing is: They didnt need it. The National Socialist ideology is enough already. But I guess the producers needed to hammer this point. In a cheap and unrealistic way.
So now to my biggest critic: Conspiracy acts like most of the Nazis siting at the table didnt know exactly what was going in the Third Reich. This whole discussion and the horror some of them show is utterly unrealistic. We are speaking of the Crème de la Crème of the Nazi terror apparatus. Everyone of them was in one way or the other already involved in some killings. Everyone of them was guilty & most of them where damn proud of that. This is something which I cant forgive. Compare this to the German movie. Before the conference begins an SS leaders reports to Heydrich that Latvia is jew free. Because his Einsatzgruppen killed thousands already. Making it the first country in Europe to be completely jew free. Well he gets his praise & the conference starts. Later the representative of the ocupied eastern territories wants to do the same, but Heydrich dismiss him because he already knows. This pisses the representative off, because he wanted the praise for himself. And this leads to this little dialog between him and the SS leader:

Rep: What? You already have?
SS: Well I certainly have the right to report to my supervisor!
Rep: Thats our area of responsibility!
SS: But our job!
Everybody laughs and chuckles. You know a little workplace humor! Its utterly horrifc! First time I saw the scene I laughed too. Because it was funny. Only to than think, wait a second: WTF is wrong with you!
And this theme goes through the whole movie. The Nazis are super confident & charming people which discuss utterly despicable things. This makes the movie a much more chilling experience than Conspircay. The producers hat the guts to show sympathic, joyful Nazis. Which believe makes the movie experience so much harder and powerful compared to the American/British one.
I dont really know to end my post here. But, please watch the movie & tell me what you think.
 
Chapter 1: Post-battle of France: Hitler goes clean
In the opinion of Dr. Karl Brandt, an overlooked and decisive moment in WW2 was following the battle of France when it became clear that Britain was not about to give up, despite the defeat of France.
Specifically, Karl Brandt was present when Hitler received the translation of Churchill’s famous June 18th speech to the house of commons: “What General Weygand called the Battle of France is over. I expect that the battle of Britain is about to begin. Upon this battle depends the survival of Christian civilisation. Upon it depends our own British life and the long continuity of our institutions and our Empire. The whole fury and might of the enemy must very soon be turned on us. Hitler knows that he will have to break us in this island or lose the war. If we can stand up to him, all Europe may be free and the life of the world may move forward into broad, sunlit uplands. But if we fail, then the whole world, including the United States, including all that we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new Dark Age made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights of a perverted science. Let us therefore brace ourselves to our duties, and so bear ourselves that, if the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, "This was their finest hour".[25][43][44]
— Winston Churchill” (quoted from Wikipedia)
Dr. Brandt recalled Hitler as saying: “Damn it (Verdammt), we should have closed that pocket when we had the chance!”, and claims that he without thinking, said what had been on his mind for a long time and took a remarkable chance with his own health. He has been quoted as saying: “You should not be too hard on yourself. Considering the medications prescribed by Dr. Morell, no man could have maintained a level head.” The room fell silent, everyone awaiting the rage surely to follow, but the pause dragged on. Hitler only after what seemed like forever said “leave us!” and we now only have Dr. Brandt’s memoirs as the source of the dialogue which followed:
Adolf Hitler: “You think the halt order was decisive and blame me for it?”
Dr. Brandt: ”I shouldn’t presume to understand the consequences, please forgive me for this”
Adolf Hitler: ”What do you then presume?”
Dr. Brandt: ”I only meant that at the time you were under tremendous stress and acted against the advice of the generals in the field. This has not been the way you handled things in the past. It is possible that the medications given to you makes you prone to rash decisions”.
Adolf Hitler: “Dr. Morell has been a life-saver for me, how dare you!”
Dr. Brandt (decided that he had nothing left to lose):”Did you feel hard palpitations at the time? And did these contribute to your anxiety?”
Adolf Hitler: “How could you know?”
Dr. Brandt (taking a major chance): ”This is a common effect of the Strophantin which I believe Dr. Morell injected you with”
Adolf Hitler: “That is true, but I need this for my angina”
Dr. Brandt: ”Or else you need it because the amphetamine prescribed in your daily Vitamultin cocktails is what gives you heart pain”
Adolf Hitler: He doesn’t give me amphetamine, he wouldn’t dare. These are vitamins
Dr. Brandt (in the gamble for his life): ”Why don’t we examine the vitamultin. It is my impression that you are mostly healthy and you would improve considerably without any medication at all. At least after a pause in medication, we would be treating whatever illness you might have and not those caused by Dr. Morell’s prescriptions. Don’t you think it is worth a try? I would vouch good name as a physician on this. After a week away from any prescription, you would feel much better.”
Adolf Hitler: “If we try this, and I deteriorate, it will be on your head!”
Dr. Brandt: ”I must insist we give it a week at least, and you might still feel a longing for your morning Vitamultin’s. This is to be fought off with same determination that you stay away from alcohol, tobacco and meat. Would you consent to this?”
Adolf Hitler: “I will, and god help you if this makes it worse!”
Hitler did go through with the experiment and it is probably fortunate that happy news, including the formal surrender of France poured in in the first few days of his detoxification. A week later, when Hitler and Dr. Brandt met each other, Dr. Brandt asked Hitler how he felt and Hitler admitted he felt great. Rested and level headed, some stomach pains, but not worse than before.
Dr. Brandt would remain as Hitler’s personal head physician although he was not prevented from organizing his now famous racial hygienic experiments on the side*. Thus, the memoirs from Dr. Brandt forms an intriguing first-hand narrative of many of the subsequent events in WW2.


*Post victorious World War 2 German point of view. The objective wording would have been infamous
Are you guys seriously surprised a semi-Nazi POV story would try to downplay the Holocaust and the Madagascar Plan?
Following up from yesterday evening CET. The reason why TTL's mass murders was written as they were is provided in the Title and in the first update (in bold). It is written with a victorious reich point of view. In this point of view there would not be an elaborate detailing of cruel mass murder, but rather, exactly as written: They had this problem, but found this way to deal with in a "more humane way".
There are no other post that goes deep into personal narratives except when there is a reason why this could be part of a history book. In fact, the only place were the style of the TL was broken was when I wrote "Nazi style".
That was meant as a reminder of the perspective, but maybe that was written to casually, for which I apologize. Staying in character in the update and then write the reminder separately would have been better.
Obviously, that (German) historyITTL remembers this as a problem with a solution, should not make the realities beneath any less gruesome, bestaial or evil in your imagination. Perhaps quite the contrary.
 
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They had this problem, but found this way to deal with in a "more humane way".

If you was writing this as a history book you could go "Whilst the Nazi Party considered this option 'humane' this could not be further from the truth and would result in the deaths of X NUMBER'

But the way you wrote it, was basically "The Jews went away and that is it." you so completely ghost over it or undersell it that its gross to the point that its almost denying it by simply not mentioning it. You're NOT a holocaust denyer, because your ass would rightfully be banned. But you ARE known to be a massive werhaboo along with the likes of Glenn239 who seems to have moved onto other pastures. So writing the holocaust, and TTL's one would be far far far worse with a far higher number of people killed, with a handwave of "Yeah something happened." and putting HUMANE in the same sentence is a sure-fire way to get people's backs up and hence the response to TTL's Generalplan Ost/Final Solition being given all the care and attention of "something happened...but don't worry, its humane' is going to piss people off.

Also the Nazi's never, ever tried in any way shape or form to show what they did, in work camps, death camps, ghettos etc as 'humane' Sure they tried to justify it at stuff like Neurenburg, saying 'Oh they didn't suffer' but that's about as far as you could stretch it and they DID suffer, there's simply nothing humane about it. And there's no way, on this earth, to do what the Nazi's did, and how they did it and call it 'humane'. Not even in their twisted minds where 'they didn't suffer' was more akin to them viewing their victims as little more than animals and you don't want to be too cruel to animals. Right? That's the Nazi's mindset, there's nothing humane about it. Period.

You basically handled what will be the deaths of probably 10's of millions with zero grace and subtly other than a vague statement, punctuated with the word 'Humane'. There's ways to do this. There's ways to not. Guess what you went with judging by the reaction it provoked.

With the amount of vehicles and kit you've done (which is very good) and you obviously have a lot of knowledge and ideas on that, what you should have done is a thing about that, not mention the war save during bits about the planes or tanks or stuff which just hints at what happened and the like. Think more

"First deployed in 1941 during the Battle of *NAME* the VK-104981905111 or the 'Puma' as it was know, the tank went on to become the premeir medium tank, taking over from the Panzer IV which would be phased out of service following the Treaty of NAME in DATE.
 
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There are no other post that goes deep into personal narratives except when there is a reason why this could be part of a history book. In fact, the only place were the style of the TL was broken was when I wrote "Nazi style".
But that doesn't make sense.

The Nazis wouldn't say "humane [for us]." They would say "these untermenschen were dispatched as by the needs of the State to rid us of wasteful eaters." Actually... they wouldn't say anything at all, as the regime was doing its best to hush up the crimes in the east - the Posen speech's existence and how it was delivered is the best example of this.
 
But that doesn't make sense.

The Nazis wouldn't say "humane [for us]." They would say "these untermenschen were dispatched as by the needs of the State to rid us of wasteful eaters." Actually... they wouldn't say anything at all, as the regime was doing its best to hush up the crimes in the east - the Posen speech's existence and how it was delivered is the best example of this.
True that I've got some old books from that time as a history fan (even one from the German Ambassador in Japan of Japan) and in the Nazi Math book are "subtile" questions like "If a Cripple/ Jew/ Gipsy costs our society X Reichsmark, how many normal Families could be feed and housed from this money?" and shit like this (it's all open racist discrimination and hate even in youngest people school books), these people were never subtile, nor did they view their evil shit as evil shit, they were fucking proud of it and even made sarcastic jokes about concentration camps officially for all to see who were a part of this system.
 

ferdi254

Banned
This will be partly in German. There is a singer Heinz Rudolf Kunze who wrote a song concerning the Madagaskar myth (and nothing more it was) as an answer to some growing Neonazi movement in Germany in the 80s.

Die könnten jetzt doch alle in Madagaskar sitzen, schön warm und überhaupt auch viel mehr Platz. Der ganze zweite Weltkrieg, ein Gegenstand von Witzen und über unser Land kein böser Satz.

A bit hard to translate as the connotations will be different but I try.

They (the jews) could have a fine life in Madagaskar by now, in a warm place with much space. The whole second world war a topic only for jokes and no badmouthing about Germany at all.

This song imo closes that discussion. Google and translate HRK and Madagaskar will do for you.
 
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But that doesn't make sense.

The Nazis wouldn't say "humane [for us]." They would say "these untermenschen were dispatched as by the needs of the State to rid us of wasteful eaters." Actually... they wouldn't say anything at all, as the regime was doing its best to hush up the crimes in the east - the Posen speech's existence and how it was delivered is the best example of this.
True that I've got some old books from that time as a history fan (even one from the German Ambassador in Japan of Japan) and in the Nazi Math book are "subtile" questions like "If a Cripple/ Jew/ Gipsy costs our society X Reichsmark, how many normal Families could be feed and housed from this money?" and shit like this (it's all open racist discrimination and hate even in youngest people school books), these people were never subtile, nor did they view their evil shit as evil shit, they were fucking proud of it and even made sarcastic jokes about concentration camps officially for all to see who were a part of this system.
You make some good points on this horrible subject, but they are not directly applicable. We know of contemporary and post-allied win as IOTL, but not how it would be seen retrospectively in a post Nazi win TL.
This is not a Nazi conquering the world TL, so I imagine that down the line the jokes would stop, and the justification maintained in its necessity at the time, and otherwise they would not put to much emphasis on it.
 
Ok with the latest posts I could no longer resist. ITTL the Wehrmacht did receive winter clothing in 41. Myth is that they did no expect the war to last that long so no winter clothing was delivered laying the blame on Hitler again.

Reality was that try as they might even with a June 1940 start (and they did try best as they could) Germany could not deliver decent winter clothing to the Wehrmacht in 41. To equip one soldier with decent winter clothing you need about 8-10 kg of wool (cotton not being available and plastics out). That means 4 sheep per soldier so 12 mio sheep.

Germany had about 4(!!) and those were barely able to deliver the wool for the normal uniforms. And even if in July 1940 someone had given the order to stop slaughtering sheep (directly reducing the food for Germany) the number of sheeps cannot be quadrupled within a year. Plundering France is out ITTL but even with somebody gifting Germany the shearing scissors, the trained people, the spinning and the weaving capacities (plus all those trained workers) the sheep simply cannot be increased. Same with cows for leather.

Like with the 2.5 mio tons that not only get transported to Northern Africa but produced by Germany while OTL Germany was not even able to produce the goods needed for Barbarossa, somehow is sometimes not a valid answer.
OTL, they started in the fall of 1941, and the main problem has been the deteriorating logistics at this time as many units received winter clothing after the coldest part of the winter in Februar. ITTL they prepare a year earlier and are in semi-static positions months before the hardest part of winter and they can also establish covered defensive positions.
 
OTL, they started in the fall of 1941, and the main problem has been the deteriorating logistics at this time as many units received winter clothing after the coldest part of the winter in Februar. ITTL they prepare a year earlier and are in semi-static positions months before the hardest part of winter and they can also establish covered defensive positions.
Maybe but they would still lack the winter closing in significent numbers either way as their own capacities and that of the rest of the Axis are simply not prepared well enough for it (even if starting in 1941 or 1940).
 
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How? The cornerstone of Nazi ideology was the annihilation of the Jewish race as well as the sub-human bolsheviks. Hitler 'getting better' in the early 40's is not gonna change any of that because he's already got all sorted for that. Krastalnacht etc has already happened, the race laws, the purity laws, etc etc. Suddenly going "And then Hitler in his wonderful benevolence offered to ship all the Jews to the USA and the Americans gladly accepted this." would be whitewashing and denying history on a horrid scale.

And lets not forget that by this point the Germans are already putting people in camps, the disabled, the 'abnormal', homosexuals, Roma's etc etc etc. Has anything been said about that or has it been skipped over in favour of the DB-300314141 tank?
Hmm. Well, Hitler did have this rather bizarre idea of using the Jews as hostages to keep America out of the war OTL, and when he declared war in his logic it meant they were no longer to be viewed as such. I still have a hard time believing things get much better for them; I could see some kind of genocidal action against them happening even with an American alliance.
I don't know what the butterflies would be but there surely would be some, I'm not saying the Holocaust would be butterflied but there would be some changes.
Germany is wining the war and is now an ally of the US, if anything I think the Holocaust might be postponed, not cancelled but slowed down and then kicked into high gear, maybe when Hitler feels all the Jews have been rounded up and the rest of the world has forgotten about them.
I've already stated in an earlier posts that I too have some problems with this TL but I don't want derail it, do I personally think Hitler would suddenly ship the Jews to Africa or the middle East?
No not really but ITTL there would be butterflies and its the OP's prerogative to decide what those changes would be, if we don't agree with what he has changed to be plausible then its our prerogative to state we disagree which a lot of you have already done, I'm simply saying I think the Holocaust like the war ITTL would be different but I haven't seen enough to call BS but I do find quite a bit about TTL implausible but not ASB like some people are saying there have been no magic spells or interference from extraterrestrial beings.

I'm staying tuned to see how this ends.
 

Garrison

Donor
Following up from yesterday evening CET. The reason why TTL's mass murders was written as they were is provided in the Title and in the first update (in bold). It is written with a victorious reich point of view.
The problem is that you have a TL that is a pure Naziwank, you start with a fantastical premise and then have everything happen to favour the Nazi's, and then have them achieve all of Hitler's goals while brushing aside the holocaust as a minor detail. If your intent was to create a TL that reads like the wish fulfilment fantasies of a Nazi sympathiser then you've succeeded and yet I still cannot fathom the point of doing so. You haven't presented a plausible TL for Nazi victory where the holocaust being swept under the carpet might serve as the logical endpoint. You haven't used the Nazi's ongoing rise to power as a lens to examine the possible social and political consequences of that rise on the world, which would be difficult given the basic lack of plausibility anyway, and you seem to be more interested in what new fighters the Nazi's might build than in exploring the post Nazi victory world. So again I have to ask what was the point? What was it you wished to illuminate or explore? Because unless your intent was to create what amounts to Hitler fan fiction then I'm afraid your execution has fallen rather short.
 


Aye, what I was expecting with this TL was a naziwank mostly focusing on Wunderwaffles and the like and technology developments. But Hitler suddenly getting 'better'falling post fall france does not mean that his racial ideology has suddenly gone away. That's an integral part of who he was and who the Nazis were.

And yeah Nazi tech wanks are fine, we've seen enough of them happening as is happening in this one where Hitler and friends suddenly act with absolute foresight and nothing goes wrong, whereas their opponents start thinking that the Macedonian Phalanx should be rolled out again. And its the OP so yeah we know where its going, tons of technical data, nice designs for tanks and planes as well as Nazi Coal and Wunderwood or something etc etc.


But then he put 'humane' in about Generalplan Ost and the Holocaust. And its at that point I flipped my shit. Previously this was a love letter to Manstein and Rommel, possibly with some dodgy photos and a lace garter sneaked into that letter to them. Now this is a full blown love letter to not only Hitler, but an idealised version of him.
 
You make some good points on this horrible subject, but they are not directly applicable. We know of contemporary and post-allied win as IOTL, but not how it would be seen retrospectively in a post Nazi win TL.
This is not a Nazi conquering the world TL, so I imagine that down the line the jokes would stop, and the justification maintained in its necessity at the time, and otherwise they would not put to much emphasis on it.
I'm sorry, I don't understand how this remotely answers my criticism. It again continues to not logically follow; why would the Nazis joke about themselves in the third person? Why would they joke about something they would either be bragging about or desperate to hide at all costs? How is this even a joke?

I've been on the form for a while, and it seems like most if not all of your TLs follow the similar idea: something happens to Hitler, the German armed forces, or Germany; the German army effortlessly crushes all before them; the world stands there, grinning, saying "I like cheese!"

I don't have a problem with a TL about the Nazis winning, or Hitler being a different person. I don't necessarily have a problem with Notzis or Notler if written well or with a sufficient POD (see Dorogan's TL "Pax Germanica" where Hitler getting a huge blow to the end makes him sane and rational in 1934). Hell, I don't even have a problem with TLs that show the German armed forces as the protagonist; a lot of the OTL battles make for great drama, and the Bismarck chase is one of my favorite sagas of the war. But you are neglecting a very, very, VERY key issue in this and other TLs: just how much the politics and personal beliefs of Hitler informed Nazi policy and the behavior of the armed forces. They are inseparable. Refusing to acknowledge that racial policy goes hand in hand with military action for the Wehrmacht is not an accurate accounting of history.

If I were you, I'd scrub this TL and do one focused on what seems to interest you: the kit, weapons, and vehicles of the Wehrmacht in a world where they did better or won. That way, the disinterest in the genocidal aspects of the world being created would be more explainable.

Or, I would start with a much earlier POD. Here's one I considered on my walk today: suppose Hitler had a mentor in his youth. Someone that instilled in him a level of intellectual curiosity and a strong work ethic. So, instead of the Hitler of OTL, a lazy disinterested dreamer who blames everything on others, you have a driven, intelligent man who's able to work a crowd, probably because he empathizes with his fellow man having worked hard to get where he is. His WWI experience, as with the world, is the same, so he would be still upset and angry - but probably at the "right" people and things. A Hitler who's rational, clever and charismatic might still get to power and still reshape the world - and the German army. And, I'd argue, be a very dangerous man.

There. You can now build a world where the German army can be supreme, and not have to deal with the genocidal aspects.
 
Or, I would start with a much earlier POD. Here's one I considered on my walk today: suppose Hitler had a mentor in his youth. Someone that instilled in him a level of intellectual curiosity and a strong work ethic. So, instead of the Hitler of OTL, a lazy disinterested dreamer who blames everything on others, you have a driven, intelligent man who's able to work a crowd, probably because he empathizes with his fellow man having worked hard to get where he is. His WWI experience, as with the world, is the same, so he would be still upset and angry - but probably at the "right" people and things. A Hitler who's rational, clever and charismatic might still get to power and still reshape the world - and the German army. And, I'd argue, be a very dangerous man.

There. You can now build a world where the German army can be supreme, and not have to deal with the genocidal aspects.

This would work, maybe he meets his chief ideologue, Alfred Rosenberg, was a Russian of German Heritage born in Tallinn, Estonia. And he was probably Jewish, maybe he could inspire him in other ways, yes you'd have to change stuff but if you want to do a Germany under hitler supreme but actually avoid the stuff associated with OTL hitler, what was suggested above would be a good way to go :)
 
This would work, maybe he meets his chief ideologue, Alfred Rosenberg, was a Russian of German Heritage born in Tallinn, Estonia. And he was probably Jewish, maybe he could inspire him in other ways, yes you'd have to change stuff but if you want to do a Germany under hitler supreme but actually avoid the stuff associated with OTL hitler, what was suggested above would be a good way to go :)
I've never heard anything about Rosenberg being Jewish. He got a lot of grief for the last name, but I don't know of any evidence that he was Jewish. Also, Rosenberg himself was fanatically anti-Semitic, so we'd be back where we started.
 
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