Effects of Henry FitzRoy, Duke of Richmond and Somerset Born a Girl?

[desmirelle]

@FalconHonour, I don't read the fanfictions based on TV series that can't be bothered to keep to history. And by that, I mean the Tudors, which is where both of those crappy fanfics are based upon. This is the show that had MARGARET going to PORTUGAL to wed the king, MARGARET & Charles Brandon having hot sex in a ship on the way and MARGARET suffocating her old PORTUGUESE husband with a pillow. I don't mind making up dialogue, but when you can't be bothered to figure out there was more than one Mary Tudor and it was the aunt, not the daughter at the field of gold, I can't be bothered to watch. Television and Phillipa Gregory have a lot to answer for.

 

[desmirelle]

I've done some thinking and if Bessie doesn't have a son, and Mary Boleyn Carey only comes back to England in either late 1519 or early 1520, weds Will Carey in 1520, doesn't have her first child until 1524, there's no way to have Mary's first child (if it's a boy) indisputably the King's. All of the nobility will turn on the Boleyns (Including their Howard kin) and there would always be questions about who the brat's father really is. I envision civil war when they (the Boleyns) try to put him on the throne (even if William Carey was abroad at the time of conception, because if his wife is whoring around, the kid could be anybody's). By butterflying Henry Fitzroy, we butterfly H8's idiotic concept that only boys counted. In the Old Testament (which he seemed to be so found of), daughters were deemed heirs if there were no sons. The only restriction was that they had to wed within their tribe. Wonder if Henry VIII would call 'tribe' royalty or English?

 

[FalconHonour]

I've done some thinking and if Bessie doesn't have a son, and Mary Boleyn Carey only comes back to England in either late 1519 or early 1520, weds Will Carey in 1520, doesn't have her first child until 1524, there's no way to have Mary's first child (if it's a boy) indisputably the King's. All of the nobility will turn on the Boleyns (Including their Howard kin) and there would always be questions about who the brat's father really is. I envision civil war when they (the Boleyns) try to put him on the throne (even if William Carey was abroad at the time of conception, because if his wife is whoring around, the kid could be anybody's). By butterflying Henry Fitzroy, we butterfly H8's idiotic concept that only boys counted. In the Old Testament (which he seemed to be so found of), daughters were deemed heirs if there were no sons. The only restriction was that they had to wed within their tribe. Wonder if Henry VIII would call 'tribe' royalty or English?

That's an interesting thought. It fits with English Common Law anyway, so it would be easy enough for Henry to push through...

As for the comment on the Tudors, I agree with you on the history, but IMHO, the characterisations and casting are brilliant. Natalie Dormer will always be my face cast for Anne Boleyn now...

 

[FalconHonour]

@FalconHonour, I don't read the fanfictions based on TV series that can't be bothered to keep to history. And by that, I mean the Tudors, which is where both of those crappy fanfics are based upon. This is the show that had MARGARET going to PORTUGAL to wed the king, MARGARET & Charles Brandon having hot sex in a ship on the way and MARGARET suffocating her old PORTUGUESE husband with a pillow. I don't mind making up dialogue, but when you can't be bothered to figure out there was more than one Mary Tudor and it was the aunt, not the daughter at the field of gold, I can't be bothered to watch. Television and Phillipa Gregory have a lot to answer for.

It was the daughter at the Field of Cloth of Gold, actually. OTL, it was in 1520, so the younger Mary was four. The elder Mary was already Duchess of Suffolk.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Henry's so into the Old Testament, perhaps he should have petitioned the Pope to allow him a "Hagar" - a servant of Katherine's to "go into" and have a child who would be acknowledged as legitimate (Ishmael, for those who don't know their OT) because no Isaac has appeared. (Wonder if Katherine could be talked into a second wife who would not diminish her - K's - position as Queen?)

Cause the Abraham-Sarah-Hagar menage à trois worked out so well
I could see Katherine arguing against it that if God saw fit to bless Sarah with a legitimate child when she was in her 90s then why couldn't He do the same with her? Not saying she will, but it IS a counter argument Katherine COULD make.
That said, didn't Henry petition the pope to allow him to do just this saying "well, if Solomon had five hundred wives, why can't Henry of England have two?"
I know the pope offered to recognize any child of Henry and the Lady Boleyn as legitimate (even if born out of wedlock) rather than grant the annulment, so his Holiness was perhaps also thinking of a sort of Abraham-Hagar scenario.

@FalconHonour: (re: derailing) no worries. Gives me some new fanfiction to read Agreed with you on Ms. Dormer as Anne, Claire Foy should stick to playing Elizabeth II

@desmirelle: while we're going all Old Testament, there is a case in the Pentateuch though (Numbers 27) where a man has five daughters but no son. The daughters were allowed to inherit (by God's command no less), originally with no restrictions. It was only when the leader of Manasseh raised a fuss that the girls were wed to their cousins (again at Divine order).

The question is simply who gets to marry Mary. One of Arthur, Viscount Lisle's daughters (presumably Frances b.1519) could be born male. The elder earl of Lincoln (b.1516) could survive, or the Marquess of Exeter could have a son with his first wife (the Viscountess Lisle) before she dies in 1519.
Arthur Plantagenet's kid would be beholden to Henry for nearly everything, since he would be heir to almost nothing. Lincoln is a nice option (but Katherine and others (Norfolk) might object to his Brandon blood). Courtenay/Exeter could likewise make for an interesting option.

 

[FalconHonour]

Cause the Abraham-Sarah-Hagar menage à trois worked out so well
I could see Katherine arguing against it that if God saw fit to bless Sarah with a legitimate child when she was in her 90s then why couldn't He do the same with her? Not saying she will, but it IS a counter argument Katherine COULD make.
That said, didn't Henry petition the pope to allow him to do just this saying "well, if Solomon had five hundred wives, why can't Henry of England have two?"
I know the pope offered to recognize any child of Henry and the Lady Boleyn as legitimate (even if born out of wedlock) rather than grant the annulment, so his Holiness was perhaps also thinking of a sort of Abraham-Hagar scenario.

@FalconHonour: (re: derailing) no worries. Gives me some new fanfiction to read Agreed with you on Ms. Dormer as Anne, Claire Foy should stick to playing Elizabeth II

@desmirelle: while we're going all Old Testament, there is a case in the Pentateuch though (Numbers 27) where a man has five daughters but no son. The daughters were allowed to inherit (by God's command no less), originally with no restrictions. It was only when the leader of Manasseh raised a fuss that the girls were wed to their cousins (again at Divine order).

The question is simply who gets to marry Mary. One of Arthur, Viscount Lisle's daughters (presumably Frances b.1519) could be born male. The elder earl of Lincoln (b.1516) could survive, or the Marquess of Exeter could have a son with his first wife (the Viscountess Lisle) before she dies in 1519.
Arthur Plantagenet's kid would be beholden to Henry for nearly everything, since he would be heir to almost nothing. Lincoln is a nice option (but Katherine and others (Norfolk) might object to his Brandon blood). Courtenay/Exeter could likewise make for an interesting option.

IIRC, Edward Courtenay was suggested as a husband for Mary IOTL, as was the elder Earl of Lincoln. Personally, though, I wonder whether a Pole Grandson might not be a good match for her. Perhaps Baron Montague's son Thomas, if he survives. They do have the blood of George of Clarence in their veins, after all.

 

[isabella]

The problem with Mary is who she will need to marry a cousin with Tudor blood not Plantagenet so only the (older) earl of Lincoln and James V of Scotland fit the bill... And I can not really see Henry really enthusiastic about either...
With Mary dead is possible who Katherine will accept to retire in convent consenting to the annulment and letting Henry free to remarry as England need an heir... OTL Katherine was convinced who in absence of a son Mary was destined to reign on England while Henry was convinced who England would never accepted to be ruled by a girl and he needed a son of his own blood as heir. Here instead without Mary both Henry and Katherine can not deny who James V of Scotland is the legitimate heir and I doubt who after Flooden Katherine would want be remembered as “the Queen who gifted England to the Scots” because she refuted to sign an annulment... Plus without an heir is unlikely who Spain (and so the Pope) will support Katherine like they have done in OTL...

 

[FalconHonour]

Incidentally, Kellan, if you want some more fanfic to read, my work is on that site too. Lady Eleanor Boleyn is my pen name. I am also on AO3 under the same name as I am here (FalconHonour) Would love to hear your thoughts.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Incidentally, Kellan, if you want some more fanfic to read, my work is on that site too. Lady Eleanor Boleyn is my pen name. I am also on AO3 under the same name as I am here (FalconHonour) Would love to hear your thoughts.

Will give it a look, thanks for that

 

[FalconHonour]

Will give it a look, thanks for that

One of the stories is the one I'm turning into my current TL, actually.

 

[desmirelle]

@Kellan Sullivan, that's the case I'm referring to. Each of the tribes of Israel was allotted a specific piece of land and the caveat was put into place to keep the larger tribes from gobbling up the inheritance of the smaller.

The Tudors, Reign, and all the "new" historical tv shows seem to more fiction than fact. I try each one as it comes up and am too disappointed to continue them. Don't get me wrong, I understand some things have to be 'spiced up' to make them interesting, but The Tudors not being able to even get Henry's family right - and making (the wrong sister) kill the King of (wrong country) was more than I could take.

Natalie is a lovely actress, but even she couldn't keep my attention off the errors.

 

[ranichi17]

@FalconHonour, I don't read the fanfictions based on TV series that can't be bothered to keep to history. And by that, I mean the Tudors, which is where both of those crappy fanfics are based upon. This is the show that had MARGARET going to PORTUGAL to wed the king, MARGARET & Charles Brandon having hot sex in a ship on the way and MARGARET suffocating her old PORTUGUESE husband with a pillow. I don't mind making up dialogue, but when you can't be bothered to figure out there was more than one Mary Tudor and it was the aunt, not the daughter at the field of gold, I can't be bothered to watch. Television and Phillipa Gregory have a lot to answer for.

It was the daughter at the Field of Cloth of Gold, actually. OTL, it was in 1520, so the younger Mary was four. The elder Mary was already Duchess of Suffolk.

It was actually both of them. Can't remember who said it off the top of my head right now, but in the royal canopy there was a painted shield of Mary the elder as Dowager Queen of France, so she must have been there, otherwise why bother painting that shield? And of course, the younger Mary was there to meet her betrothed at the time.