If you've seen portraits of Catherine's daughter Lettice, she looks so like a younger Elizabeth, I firmly believe that Catherine at least was Henry's. Not to mention that Henry did seek a dispensation to say he could marry Anne even though he'd slept with Mary Boleyn. He covered his bases, whatever really happened.
Effects of Henry FitzRoy, Duke of Richmond and Somerset Born a Girl?
- Thread starter Kellan Sullivan
- Start date
If you've seen portraits of Catherine's daughter Lettice, she looks so like a younger Elizabeth, I firmly believe that Catherine at least was Henry's. Not to mention that Henry did seek a dispensation to say he could marry Anne even though he'd slept with Mary Boleyn. He covered his bases, whatever really happened.
Actually, I'm not so sure canon law was as ironclad against Henry as you seem to think. ''Children" in the biblical sense usually means sons. Mary is not a boy, ergo it could be said that Henry and Katherine haven't had children in the biblical sense. I can see why Henry thought Lev. 20:21 might be a strong enough case for him. It all rests on whether Katherine and Arthur had sex or not, really, whether Henry is 'uncovering his brother's nakedness' and therefore sinning. And I think Katherine and Arthur tried. They must have done. They will both have been brought up with too strong a sense of duty not to. Note, I am not saying Katherine lied. She may genuinely not have remembered. If the whole thing was badly traumatic, she may have blocked it from her memory. But they must have tried, if only to render their marriage 100% valid.
I have always wondered whether, if Henry Carey had been indisputably Henry's, Henry would have pushed to marry Mary Boleyn and legimitise him like the Beauforts were, rather than to marry Anne. All it would take for Mary to be free would be William Carey dying earlier than 1528...
Now that could be an interesting concept. I mean the pope legitimated the Beauforts and they were stricken from the succession only by an Act of Parliament (IIRC).
Clement VII was willing to legitimate Fitzroy OTL (and then condone a marriage between Fitzroy and Mary Tudor), but it was more a last ditch offer thst he knew wouldn't get past Katherine. There was also a plan to marry Fitzroy to Karl V's bastard daughter, Margarethe (duchess of Florence and Parma), in exchange for imperial support against the French when both were kids (there were crazy plans to get Fitzroy married to Karl V's nieces (either Maria of Viseu or Kristina of Denmark) or a daughter of François I, but considering Margarethe married two bastards one after the other OTL it seems more likely).
I don't think it was for wont of trying (Henri II and Louis XVI would've likewise been brought up aware of the same duty, but both struggled with consummating their marriages). I wouldn't be surprised if it's like Cromwell's secretary says in Wolf Hall "it'd be a fine husband who came from his wedding chamber and said 'well, sirs, nothing done'." when he hears the testimony about Arthur's comments about "being in Spain" and "being a husband is thirsty work".
What I've never understood was why Henry never commented on it when he married Katherine. He had no problem voicing his suspicions about Anna of Cleves NOT being a virgin. Also, when Queen Elizabeth was being considered for one of her French matches, the French demanded proof of virginity (they'd done the same with St. Jeanne d'Arc, though) from their (rather than English) doctors5. Surely someone in England (or from the pope) would have been required to do this if there was a suspicion about her "lying" (I'm looking at you, Dr Gregory) about the marriage being consummated
I'd love to see someone write the legitimisation of Henry Carey as a Prince, seriously. And yes, it was an Act of Parliament that barred the Beauforts from the Succession, so that can easily be revoked, if it even needs to be..
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Well Henry at the time of his wedding to Katherine was young and in love with her plus was likely still quite inexperienced...
He married Katherine without thinking much to the dowry and everything else was owed to him and thinked to be her shining knight so you can understand why he do not stopped to think about her virginity.
Trust me... Kings in the past had obtained Papal annulments of their wedding with cases much less strongs than Henry’s
IMHO, the pope's dissolution of Louis XII's first marriage (alongside Henry VIII's petition for an annulment) demonstrates the height of how easily the pope would decide on annulments when politics were involved
Yes, the case of Louis XII is one of the worst but not the only case in which politics were heavily involved (either in conceding/denying a dispense, or supporting/fighting/forcing an annulment)
As to @FalconHonour's suggestion of Henry having Katherine set aside and wedding Mary Boleyn, I think both @desmirelle and @BlueFlowwer (and nyself too) would come down squarely on the side of Katherine refusing to step aside. The only way Henry's getting THAT right is over Kate's cold dead body.
However, an interesting thing would be if Bessie only has two girls, then Henry takes up with Mary Boleyn and fathers a son (OTL Katherine Carey born male and made Duke of Richmond and Somerset). Then Henry's eye settlez on Anne. In this scenario, Mary's affair will be public knowledge (as opposed to OTL where it probably never reached Katherine's ears).
Oh the mess that that'll be to sort out in Rome "the guy's arguing that because his wife slept with his brother the marriage is unclean, so he wants a dispensation so he can marry his former mistress' sister" said Legate Campeggio to the pope. The pope's head explodes trying to puzzle it out.
Well hopefully Henry here will not try to marry the poor Anne Boleyn and the girl will be free to marry someone of her choice (or at least an husband chosen/approved by her father/uncle)
I agree it's unlikely, but it was a thought. Of course, what happens if Mary dies of the Sweat in 1528? Then Katherine has no child to fight for, and let's face it, being in her mid-forties, is unlikely to be able to mother another. Would the Pope be more likely to grant an annulment/legitimise an TTL male Katherine Carey or Henry Fitzroy if Henry has no legitimate child at all with Katherine? There'd definitely be more pressure on Katherine to step aside and give Henry a chance of producing a legitimate heir with another woman if Mary died.
I'm not sure. I remember reading when I was watching the first season of "Reign" (I never made it further than Mary insisting that Henri legitimize his son by Diane de Poitiers) that a papal legitimization was a BIG f**n deal. It was saying "hey popey, I did this really bad (but normal) thing - I cheated on my wife - and I feel so UNASHAMED about what I did, I want you to make the fruit of that affair equal to the kids born from my wife".
Maybe @BlueFlowwer and @desmirelle can help, but I'm not sure that even with Mary dead Katherine will agree to step aside - she saw it as her destiny to be queen of England. If that meant to be the mother to six buried children instead of five, then so be it. However, whether thr emperor and the pope will agree is open to debate.
It's got to weaken her case though. And legitimisation would only really be possible if Henry married one of his mistresses who gave him bastard children after he is free of Katherine, however it happens. I agree with that much. But if Katherine was forced to step aside, however it happened, or died, and Henry chose to marry a mistress who had already given him a son who was indisputably his, (ITTL male Katherine Carey, to keep the example going), he would have been able to push for retroactive legitimisation a la John of Gaunt and the Beauforts. Then he immediately has a Prince of Wales, albeit one that might need the Beaufort Act of Parliament rescinding to strengthen his claim.
I'm not saying it's likely. I'm just explaining how it could be done.
Huge problem with H8 claiming any child by Anne's older sister: Lady Mary Boleyn fucking Carey was MARRIED when she allegedly had a bambino by H8. Any child she has while married will be considered her husband's and the succession will be questionable and quite opposed by the nobility...how does H8 prove the boy is his? (Answer: he can't, no DNA testing available.) (She wed in 1520 and the first child was born in 1524, can't claim she got pregnant by Henry and married quickly to avoid a scandal, can she?)
Even with Mary dead, Katherine of Aragon, crowned and anointed Queen of England, is NOT going to step aside. SHE WAS IN LOVE WITH HENRY VIII AND SHE WAS A LAWFULLY CROWNED AND ANOINTED QUEEN. The first part is the most important part to Katherine and one of the reasons she could not yield on the second - another was that it would involved implying she had lied when she said she and Arthur had never had sex (and given Arthur's build and apparent weak health, it's quite possible he could try but not much else), also that she'd been little more than Henry's whore for 20+ years. Ain't gonna happen, folks. This is the daughter of the Catholic Monarchs and a devout Roman Catholic woman, it would impugn her honor (and insult her parents). Yes, she would know that Henry needed an heir, but she also knows that there are plenty of cousins and other relatives to succeed him (much to his dismay) - all he needs do is select one, bring him to court and have Parliament confirm him as heir.
Or, if Henry's so into the Old Testament, perhaps he should have petitioned the Pope to allow him a "Hagar" - a servant of Katherine's to "go into" and have a child who would be acknowledged as legitimate (Ishmael, for those who don't know their OT) because no Isaac has appeared. (Wonder if Katherine could be talked into a second wife who would not diminish her - K's - position as Queen?)
Even with Mary dead, Katherine of Aragon, crowned and anointed Queen of England, is NOT going to step aside. SHE WAS IN LOVE WITH HENRY VIII AND SHE WAS A LAWFULLY CROWNED AND ANOINTED QUEEN. The first part is the most important part to Katherine and one of the reasons she could not yield on the second - another was that it would involved implying she had lied when she said she and Arthur had never had sex (and given Arthur's build and apparent weak health, it's quite possible he could try but not much else), also that she'd been little more than Henry's whore for 20+ years. Ain't gonna happen, folks. This is the daughter of the Catholic Monarchs and a devout Roman Catholic woman, it would impugn her honor (and insult her parents). Yes, she would know that Henry needed an heir, but she also knows that there are plenty of cousins and other relatives to succeed him (much to his dismay) - all he needs do is select one, bring him to court and have Parliament confirm him as heir.
Or, if Henry's so into the Old Testament, perhaps he should have petitioned the Pope to allow him a "Hagar" - a servant of Katherine's to "go into" and have a child who would be acknowledged as legitimate (Ishmael, for those who don't know their OT) because no Isaac has appeared. (Wonder if Katherine could be talked into a second wife who would not diminish her - K's - position as Queen?)
Which is why I started my entire scenario with 'IF Henry Carey had been indisputably Henry VIII's and NOT William Carey's'. I don't deny that, in history, the Carey children were legally William's, not Henry's. But in another world... Who knows? I'm tempted to write a story based on that idea, actually... Not a full TL, but a story...
I also don't know whether you're 100% right about Katherine either. As you say, Katherine is a devout Catholic Woman. In a scenario where the Pope was persuaded to grant Henry his annulment (maybe Mary is dead, and therefore Henry's childless argument holds more water) or he uses a different argument to gain it - leaving aside Arthur, the couple were third cousins once removed, which left them technically within the forbidden degrees of consanguinity anyway - I say she'd have accepted the Papal decree. In our world, no way, but in a world like that? Most likely.
As for your comment about the Hagar/second wife idea, have you ever read either https://www.fanfiction.net/s/5488685/1/Handmaid or https://www.fanfiction.net/s/4440408/1/Three-People-In-A-Marriage? They both cover that sort of idea...
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The papal dispensation encompassed their consanguinity. You'll have to come up with a reason that doesn't make her a whore. And I totally understand about not our world, theirs, but Katherine was from the people who instituted the Inquisition. She is not going to admit she was "known" by Arthur, and she'll justify not stepping aside as Biblical punishment for H8's father revolting against and killing an anointed king (R3) or something along those lines. "Until the children of the third and fourth generation" type punishment. Yeah, they believed that in the 16th century.
I know they did. I wasn't aware the dispensation covered their blood ties too, but if it did, it will simply be easiest to kill the poor woman off. The Sweat of 1528 would solve matters neatly. Katherine dies of the Sweat, is buried as Queen of England, and Henry marries Anne/any other woman he fancies. Surely that works?