Edward V survives

[Thande]

Good start to a TL and seems well written.

One minor thing, the whole 'Wars of the Roses' idea was largely thought up in retrospect - although the roses were sometimes used as badges during the conflict, it was Henry Tudor who decided to emphasise them in the aftermath, probably because it meant he could easily combine the red and white roses to make a funky compromise symbol. Prior to that time, the more common symbol of Richard's supporters was the Sun of York, and sometimes the white boar of the Duchy of Gloucester.

In the battle banners used by the two sides at the Battle of Bosworth Field in OTL, you can see all these symbols, as well as Henry Tudor's Welsh Dragon.

 

[Grimm Reaper]

It needs to be remembered that the Nevilles were almost universally hated.

The decision to provoke a confrontation with Richard OTL was especially foolish because he was the one reliable ally they might have hoped to recruit, given his brother's will and his own well known loyalty to his brother's wishes. I have an unpleasant feeling that Richard may wind up seeking a papal dispensation for his niece who married Henry VII OTL.

 

[Velasco]

Hey guys, thanks for all the feedback, ideas, suggestions, and the image (I had no idea ).

Queen Elizabeth is in power in London as Regent and has possession of basically the entire Kingdom, including Wales and Ireland, all of the government administration, and ofc custody of the King himself. However she is faced by her own unpopularity, Richard (solidly in power in the entire north) and Henry Tudor ready to invade with French help (and counting on Welsh uprising as well as Lancastrian supporters within England). No much she can do to change her popularity overnight. As her most pressing conflict is with Richard of Gloucester, wouldn't it be viable that she would be pushed (in this TL) (and as she was in 1485) to ally with Henry Tudor, as the lesser of two evils, against the greater evil and greater threat of Richard Gloucester? Richard's actions have already shown him to be less than innocent, so the Woodvilles are now mistrustful of him, but the Queen and her siblings are far too unpopular (and the King far too young) to provide a charismatic headship for the new régime. So Henry Tudor could be brought in as the Queen's puppet, so to speak, providing a suitable male leadership to challenge Gloucester whilst keeping the de facto power in her own hands ?


Also, when you say Nevilles, do you generally mean just Warwick the Kingmaker, or the entire family?

 

[Space Oddity]

No much she can do to change her popularity overnight. As her most pressing conflict is with Richard of Gloucester, wouldn't it be viable that she would be pushed (in this TL) (and as she was in 1485) to ally with Henry Tudor, as the lesser of two evils, against the greater evil and greater threat of Richard Gloucester? Richard's actions have already shown him to be less than innocent, so the Woodvilles are now mistrustful of him, but the Queen and her siblings are far too unpopular (and the King far too young) to provide a charismatic headship for the new régime. So Henry Tudor could be brought in as the Queen's puppet, so to speak, providing a suitable male leadership to challenge Gloucester whilst keeping the de facto power in her own hands ?

Except that doing this destroys any pretence of legitimacy she might possess. She's now unpopular, antagonizing the most powerful nobleman in the realm, and, oh, yes, seeking an alliance with a Lancaster pretender who has invaded Calais with French aid.

Frankly, if I wanted to make a timeline, where Richard III could take over the throne and not face the stigma of being seen as a nephew-killing usurper--this would be a pretty good candidate for my scenario.

 

[Grimm Reaper]

What actions has Richard taken which are remotely suspicious other than acting as if his brother's will should have been respected prior to extremely serious provocations on the part of the Woodvilles?

The fact that the Woodvilles don't trust him means little since their actions have done nothing to inspire trust and hardly anyone in England or Wales considers the Woodvilles to be trustworthy. Now they have a disaster on their hands with Anne Neville dying in their hands two years earlier than OTL. Avoiding accusations of murder will be impossible and defending against them will be difficult. To make matters worse this will do nothing to help the rapidly failing health of Richard's son, who died OTL in early 1484 but whose health can reasonably be expected to collapse with his mother's death and his own imprisonment.

When, not if, that happens Richard's response...



On the proposed alliance with Henry...historically Henry is one of the prime suspects in the murder of Edward V and his brother, after which he married their oldest sister to strengthen his claim to the throne so giving him the marriage alliance/claim to the throne while putting him in close proximity to both of Edward IV's sons with an army behind him does not appear the wisest.

The Tudors were well known for making every effort to do away with rivals.

Making him lord protector, despite any justification to do so, will destroy the Woodvilles as every Yorkist in the kingdom moves to Richard's side. This will leave them with Henry's mediocre support and those the Woodvilles can bribe and since the holdings of the Woodvilles give Richard some truly tremendous bribe offerings of his own...

 

[Velasco]

Well, Richard had handed Berwick over to the Scots, betrayed his ally Albany in order to get Scottish King's support, seized Chester. He refused to go into London and take up the Lord Protectorate, and right when his brother died he congressed with Buckingham and Hastings and way too many troops, leading to rumours he intended to take the throne (which he did not dispell by going to London).

So on the one hand Elizabeth is extremely unpopular, whilst Richard's cards have been dealt earlier than he would have liked: its evident that he has no intention of upholding the will either and is harbouring some personal ambitions. Furthermore he's disobeyed King's order (via the Regent) and betrayed the Kingdom by handing over Berwick to Scots enemy.

With the few options available to her, Queen Elizabeth might just be stupid enough to attempt a Kingmaker and align with whatever remains of the Lancastrian party to stay in power Not that long since a Lancastrian King was in power and ofc, her mother was the Lancastrian Duchess of Bedford, so perhaps she would have some Lancastrian sympathies, or at least, see them as her only viable friends. Obviously making Henry Lord Protector is NOT a wise move on her part, but maybe she sees it as her only way out...

On the other hand Richard is now free to remarry, can blame Queen mother Elizabeth for death of his wife; the son is with the King so not really imprisoned, just in the Queen's power really.
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All that said, is this scenario shaping up ok? (Remember its my very first ) I don't want to get too crazy, but then again, we're going for alternate history, so gotta mix things up a lil...
Hopefully create complicated conundrums leading to unexpected results

 

[Geekhis Khan]

Not my area of expertise, but I like it! Well written and informative. I know little about the War of the Roses beyond the OTL result and I'm curious where you'll go with this.

 

[Velasco]

Elsewhere in Christendom, mid-1483​

​

In 1483 Juanna ‘La Beltraneja’, sometime Queen of Castile-Léon and formerly Consort of Portugal, escaped from the convent to which she had been confined since her deposition four years prior. It was not an uncommon occurrence; the former Queen often attempt to make away from the convent, only to be brought back by her half-aunt and former sister-in-law, Queen Isabella the Catholic. Isabella was the half-sister of Juanna’s late father King Enrique, and full sister of the prematurely deceased infante Afonso, to whom she had been nominally married at the age of two. Usually La Beltraneja made her way to Portugal, or took up residence with some Castilian noble family favorable to her cause, before being forced back at her aunt’s behest.
​

Underneath her quiet, pious exterior was an infuriated young woman who felt robbed by her family, Church and subjects of what was her by right. Worst of all, they branded her a bastard! This time, she meant business. Her uncle and former husband and benefactor, King Afonso of Portugal, had died; there was nothing for her in Portugal.

Instead she stole away into France, to a suitor who could not be more perfectly matched for her. He was Francis Phoebus, the handsome seventeen year old King of Navarre (La Beltraneja was then twenty-one), the nephew of Ferdinand the Catholic, the dastardly husband of her aunt and who constantly threatened the continued existence of his nephew’s small Pyrenean kingdom.

However, an even greater match soon presented itself, prompting her to turn down Francis' suit (ostensibly on ground of their close relationship which would require a Papal dispensation). The death of Queen Charlotte of France in January (1) had left the sickly King Louis XI unmarried and his young son without a mother. La Beltraneja was a perfect candidate for the consort’s throne: her pretty face and body were enough to endear her to the old King, whilst her pious Castilian upbringing made her an ideal surrogate mother figure for the Dauphin Charles. Most importantly, her royal title to the thrones of Castile and Léon made her a thorn in the side of the Catholic Monarchs, whose unification of the Spanish realms made them a powerful threat to the resurgent might of France, especially if allied with France’s other main enemy, the Duke of Burgundy (2).

King Louis XI of France​

From Pamplona La Beltraneja had been escorted to Bordeaux, under the security of King Francis Phoebus' men (the young King's mother, the regent Magdalen de Valois, had been convinced of the greater political expediency of marrying Beltraneja to Louis XI and giving the French crown a direct stake in Iberian politics). At Bordeaux, La Beltraneja was married by proxy to King Louis XI; his son-in-law the Duc d’Orléans stood in his stead. Whatever holy orders and vows she had taken, she had taken under duress, and was thus not obligated to remain in any of them. From Bordeaux she was escorted in great pomp (and great haste) to Paris, to be presented at court as the new Queen. The Catholic Monarchs automatically protested, but where by then far too entrenched in war with the Emirate of Granada to do anything much about La Beltraneja.

Thus, in a sudden change of fortune, whilst La Beltraneja was presented as Queen of France in Paris and attended mass with her aged husband and the Dauphin at St Denis, the united armies of Castile and Aragon had been defeated at Axarquia, leaving King Ferdinand trapped in Alhama, well within the Emir’s dominion.

_____________________________________________________

[1] In real life, Charlotte de Savoie, Queen of France, briefly outlived her husband and died on December 1 1483.
[2] The Duchess of Burgundy, Mary, died in 1482, leaving her vast holdings to her young son Philip, under the regency of her husband the Archduke Maximilian. Maximilian and the Catholic Monarchs were natural allies, encircling France on all sides. With Maximilian having been forced to relinquish certain territories to the French after his wife’s death, Spanish help was exactly what he needed to restore the integrity of his son’s rich domains.

​

 

[SavoyTruffle]

So does Louis XI still die on schedule? At this point he'll be dead in less than a year.

 

[Velasco]

He'll die soon enough but probably hang around a few extra months.

 

[DrakeRlugia]

Looking interesting so far. I can't help but think Elizabeth is making a mistake inviting Henry Tudor into England, but it ought to be interesting to see what he does in England. A very interesting match between Louis XI and La Beltraneja, although she might find herself in an interesting position once Louis kicks the bucket and Charles become King. She may make an interesting ally for Bourbon and Anne de Beaujeu, though.

 

[Velasco]

Margaret of York, sister of King Edward IV, had married Duke Charles the Bold of Burgundy and Flanders in 1468; solidifying the highly lucrative Anglo-Burgundian alliance. Unfortunately, she had failed to produce her husband a son, nevertheless becoming a mother to his young daughter, who succeeded as the Duchess Mary of Burgundy, Flanders and Brabant following his death in January 1477. As Dowager Duchess, Margaret was a prominent figure in the government of the vast Burgundian domains. The death of the Duchess Mary in 1482 was a big blow to her, both on a personal level (for the young woman’s loss) and also politically, for it left the Burgundian inheritance to the four year old Archduke Philip . To make matters worse, the boy’s father, the Archduke Maximilian of Austria, was not all that popular. The Burgundians were by then sick of war and unwilling to accept Maximilian as regent or even as guardian of his son. On the 23 December 1482 the Three Estates of the Lowlands signed the Treaty of Arras with Louis XI, granting him the Burgundian Lowlands, Picardy and the County of Boulogne. The Dowager Duchess Margaret of York was unable to secure the assistance of her brother, King Edward IV, who had made his own truce with France. Margaret and Maximilian were forced to accept the fait accompli; with Margaret’s approval Maximilian brokered a separate peace with Louis, by whose terms Maximilian’s daughter Margaret was betrothed to the Dauphin with Artois and the Franche-Comté as her dowry. Indeed this betrothal brought England and France to the brink of war[1], averted only by the death of King Edward IV that April.
​

In October 1483 the Dowager Duchess, Margaret of York, arrived at the Palais du Louvre, where she was welcomed by King Louis XI and his pretty new Queen, Joanna of Castile. There she was also reunited with her beloved step-granddaughter, now Madame la Dauphine. Margaret came ostensibly to ensure that the young Archduchess was being well cared for, though naturally matters of state weighed heavy on her mind. Louis XI’s marriage was perhaps a prelude to French incursion into Iberia, in which case the Burgundians would be well positioned to pressure the French to return at least some of the territories they had recently taken. Given the King’s ill health it was not thought likely he would live long enough to press his wife’s claims to Castile, in which case Margaret had been commissioned by Maximilian to obtain La Beltraneja’s hand (and claims) for him.

Even more pressing for Margaret was the situation in England following her brother’s death. Her overreaching brother, Duke Richard of Gloucester, and her loathsome sister-in-law, the Queen Dowager Elizabeth, jostled for power, imperiling the crown of her young nephew Edward V. Their actions destabilized and diminished the realm; already Richard had ceded English conquests along the border back to the Scots, whilst the Lancastrian heir Henry Tudor had taken (with French help) the entire Calais Pale. Pressure from Richard pushed the Queen Dowager to what Margaret deemed the greatest folly of all: allying herself with Henry Tudor and offering him the Protectorate (tantamount, in Margaret's eyes, to offering him the crown).

Once in Paris, the Dowager Duchess put all of her influence to work, seeking to deprive Henry Tudor of the French men and money which was so quintessential to his campaign and which he had hitherto sought to use to remove her nephew from the throne. The Dowager Duchess did not think for one minute that Henry Tudor would be contented with an earldom when he could reasonably aspire to the throne. Surely no!

Louis XI was not greatly wooed by Margaret’s personal dynastic concerns for the security of her young nephew’s kingdom, nor was he moved by any great fear of Burgundian reprisal, being well confident in his own military superiority in their respect. But he was loathe to allocate resources to back up Henry Tudor when Tudor had come to terms with the Queen Dowager, submitting himself to her and putting aside his own aspirations to the Crown. It was not for Henry Tudor’s restoration to the English peerage that the French had supported him. What Louis XI desired was a weakened English realm with a King not only favorable but also indebted to him, owing to Valois France his very throne. Now that it seemed such was not to be – at least not through Tudor – and greater use might be had for his men in Iberia making good his wife’s title, Louis XI ordered his men turn back. At Margaret’s urging, Tudor was not allowed to remain in Calais. Commander became prisoner, or “honoured guest”; Tudor was brought back to Paris, where he was honorably put up at La Conciergerie. His uncle Jasper, as a son of a Valois princess, was also very well received and granted a handsome life pension from the French Crown.

Shortly after the end of the Christmas celebrations at the Louvre, the Dowager Duchess of Burgundy, Margaret of York, set sail for England, in one of the ships intended for Henry Tudor’s invasion. During her brief stay in Calais she paid, from her Privy Purse, for the reorganization of a city militia to help enforce the authority of the Captain there (the brief occupation and then sudden removal of Henry Tudor having left the Pale in complete disarray). The Queen Dowager Elizabeth Woodville was forewarned of the oncoming arrival of her formidable sister-in-law (who was far from being her greatest fan) and made preparations for that great lady to be lavishly received upon her arrival in the Kingdom after so long an absence.
_______________________________________________________________
[1] Edward IV and Louis XI had agreed, in 1475, that the Dauphin should marry the English King’s eldest daughter Elizabeth. Louis however, had no intention of agreeing to this marriage, and generally evaded the subject for as long as he could. When he betrothed the Dauphin elsewhere in 1482, Edward was incensed and sought to avenge this affront by another descent into the French realm, to which Parliament gave its ready support.
​

 

[Fiver]

Except that doing this destroys any pretence of legitimacy she might possess. She's now unpopular, antagonizing the most powerful nobleman in the realm, and, oh, yes, seeking an alliance with a Lancaster pretender who has invaded Calais with French aid.

Frankly, if I wanted to make a timeline, where Richard III could take over the throne and not face the stigma of being seen as a nephew-killing usurper--this would be a pretty good candidate for my scenario.

Most definitely agreed. With this move, Elizabeth Woodville makes it far more like for this to be a Richard III survives than an Edward V survives timeline.

 

[Fiver]

On the proposed alliance with Henry...historically Henry is one of the prime suspects in the murder of Edward V and his brother, after which he married their oldest sister to strengthen his claim to the throne so giving him the marriage alliance/claim to the throne while putting him in close proximity to both of Edward IV's sons with an army behind him does not appear the wisest.

The problem with Henry or Richard being suspects is neither gained anything out of killing the boys if the general public didn't know the boys were dead.

And to be fair to Henry, he didn't kill other children who were a threat to his throne. He just imprisoned them until they were adults, and then killed them.

 

[Lord Grattan]

I'm enjoying the story very much - nice detail and pace - and the discussion as well.

 

[V-J]

As her most pressing conflict is with Richard of Gloucester, wouldn't it be viable that she would be pushed (in this TL) (and as she was in 1485) to ally with Henry Tudor, as the lesser of two evils, against the greater evil and greater threat of Richard Gloucester? Richard's actions have already shown him to be less than innocent, so the Woodvilles are now mistrustful of him, but the Queen and her siblings are far too unpopular (and the King far too young) to provide a charismatic headship for the new régime. So Henry Tudor could be brought in as the Queen's puppet, so to speak, providing a suitable male leadership to challenge Gloucester whilst keeping the de facto power in her own hands ?

But Elizabeth only cut a deal with Richmond in OTL after it became commonly accepted that the princes had been killed, in late 1483. With them still clearly alive, such a deal not only makes no sense, it actually endangers them and their position.

There's a lot of ex post facto thinking going on here. When Edward V came to the throne Richard was regarded as a faultless ultra-loyalist to his brother, (and one would have had to presume that would continue with respect of his sons and their legact) and with his military and political experience he was regarded as the obvious choice as regent. For the Woodeville's to attempt to side-step Richard's claims by treating with a Lancastrian claimant would be seen as, to put it mildly, eccentric.

 

[Grimm Reaper]

Given just how many enemies they had the effort by the Woodvilles OTL to sidestep Edward IV's will and go far out of their way to provoke Richard was worse than eccentric. Now with the death of Richard's wife on their hands and control of England falling apart marrying Henry to the third Yorkist claimaint to the throne, thereby enhancing his own claim...

Neither is it clear that the princes were dead in 1483 given that their own mother made peace with Richard and even allowed her daughters to return to his court, unthinkable even for Elizabeth Woodville if she thought Richard had killed her sons.

 

[Space Oddity]

But Elizabeth only cut a deal with Richmond in OTL after it became commonly accepted that the princes had been killed, in late 1483. With them still clearly alive, such a deal not only makes no sense, it actually endangers them and their position.

Yeah. I'm not getting how Richard's the 'greater of two evils' here. Hmmm, the uncle who wants to be Lord Protector and maybe King, versus the distant cousin who definitely wants to be King, and says your entire claim to the throne is invalid.

There's a lot of ex post facto thinking going on here. When Edward V came to the throne Richard was regarded as a faultless ultra-loyalist to his brother, (and one would have had to presume that would continue with respect of his sons and their legact) and with his military and political experience he was regarded as the obvious choice as regent. For the Woodeville's to attempt to side-step Richard's claims by treating with a Lancastrian claimant would be seen as, to put it mildly, eccentric.

Putting it very mildly. It would be seen as foolish, and arguably treasonous--Henry's an ally of FRANCE, who has led FRENCH soldiers in a successful attack on ENGLISH territory. Richard may have the Scottish issue--because his brain isn't working ITTL--but even that pales before what the Woodvilles have cooked up here. Especially as many--perhaps even most--nobles would see Richard as having suffered atrocious abuse at the hand of his nephew's regime, what with the 'sanctioning kidnapping attempts that lead to the death of a spouse' and all that, which may have forced him to consider desperate measures to get redress. But hey! They've got the King! And this is England! It's not like a King can't get away with abusing his kin, and face a serious and popular revolt because of it! Oh... wait...

 

[Grimm Reaper]

In fact the century prior to this had seen no less than three child kings and none of those tales ended very happily, yet another detail which even in OTL the Woodvilles blithely ignored.

 

[Velasco]

Ok...wow! Thanks for all the feedback everyone.

I agree that Richard was held in very high regard. In real life, the Queen was convinced by what he said, told her brother to disband the army he had gathered, and handed over the King to Richard's hands. In this time line the ambition of the Queen's son Dorset (desiring to deprive Richard of the Protectorate) put a ren in the works of Richard's friends in the Queen's circle (who were the ones who acted on his behalf convincing her not to have the King taken to London with an army and without Richard) allowing a small window of time in which Earl Rivers hastily brought the King from Ludlow to London (where Dorset had been set up by Edward IV as Governor of the Tower).

In that small window of time Richard acted foolishly by gathering an army with Buckingham and Hastings, allowing rumours to spring up in the Capital that he was going to make a bid for the throne. After all, what need does he have for an army if his intentions are peaceful? The fact that he didn't hasten to London to take up the Protectorate makes his situation all the worse. As the Queen insisted for Richard to come and take up the Protectorate, she had hardly be blamed for him not doing so...although obviously Richard is no fool and knows the Woodvilles aren't his biggest fans, hence why he dithers and doesn't go to London.

The King is *finally* crowned and the event is used as an opportunity to end Richard's nominal Protectorate - after all, he never took it up in the first place. Raising up an army, betraying Albany, hell, even betraying England by giving up Berwick - not good for his PR and certainly not dispelling the rumours in the capital that he intends to take the throne for himself.

With all that, Richard is the Queen's most immediate threat and rival, and with him allied with the Scots there is no chance of her herself securing Scottish support against him. Foolish, perhaps, but would it really be absurd for her to seek to eliminate Henry Tudor as an enemy and reconcile with him ? with the other option being for her to keep both Gloucester AND Tudor as her enemies...?

(Bear in mind that there is no guarantee she will uphold all or any of what she promises to Henry Tudor; he has to put away his arms, forsake the French and his claims, and come to England pretty empty-handed, putting himself in the hands of the Woodvilles, to THEN receive his reward/bride/place in government).

(Also bearing in mind Elizabeth Woodville's own Lancastrian background)

With Henry Tudor by her side, she can count on Welsh and (whatever remains of) Lancastrian support, whilst against Richard she has at best a rather tenuous hold on the loyalty of the Yorkist party.

Regardless, Margaret of York is now on the scene, come to shake things up a little