Early Pre-Germanic heavy plough and Bronze Age?

[DUWANG]

What if during the early 2 till middle 1 millenium BC a "Germanic" (rather Pre-Germanic, because grimm's law only happend like around 500 BC) in Scandinavia or Northern Germany not just invented the heavy plough but also started the Bronze Age some 200 to 300 years earlier? Maybe thanks to a great leader as smart as the great man of our time? A man who would be like the fusion of Genghis Khan, Alaric, Alexander and Augustus. Basically a one in a million chance, and according to quantum mechanics, anything with a higher posibility than 0 can and will happen. So what if this 0,1% chance happens? What could a Pre-Germanic tribe around 2000 BC with a demigod like leader which will... say get 60 years to live, a early Bronze Age, a very early heavy plough in... say Jutland do? Could it conquer all of the red area or at least all of Jutland, the Danish islands and southern Scandia? Would and could they develope writing? There was neither the Phonecian alphabet for the next 1000 years nor any Greek influence in Southern Europe, it could trade with the rest of Europe and the mediterranean without the Romans isolating North Europe. How long could they survive with a at least somewhat good successor line? How would they influence their neighbors? How would their Pantheon and Culture look like? They would probably still worship Tyr or rather "Tiywos" or "Teiwos" as their main god. How much could it expand and influence it's region? Could it even survive when Rome finally conqueres Gaul, if Rome even exist? Would Pre-Germanic even go through Grimm's law if it developes a writing system? Do you think it could still happen if the civilization falls before 500 BC? How would it compare to you with other prestigious IE languages like Mycenaean Greek, Sanskrit and Hittite? Or is this all with the heavy plough and early Bronze Age to ASB in your eyes? Is heavy plough even possible with Bronze?

 

[Analytical Engine]

The first true heavy plough was Chinese, made during the Han dynasty, and made using cast iron.

Plough - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Carruca - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I'm not sure bronze is strong enough, but I will defer to people who know more about such things.

 

[Prince di Corsica]

Well, for the Bronze Age, if they started it at that point, they'd actually be late, as this article in Wikipedia with even the same map you use would tell. So there's no issue there.

(In fact, if I remember correctly I think that region was wealthier during the Bronze Age in comparison to the Iron Age, with more organised societies born out of trade carried over Europe in the Amber route, but don't quote me on that)

I lack knowledge for the heavy plough, but I'll be interested in seeing what others can say about it.

 

[DUWANG]

Well, for the Bronze Age, if they started it at that point, they'd actually be late, as this article in Wikipedia with even the same map you use would tell. So there's no issue there.

(In fact, if I remember correctly I think that region was wealthier during the Bronze Age in comparison to the Iron Age, with more organised societies born out of trade carried over Europe in the Amber route, but don't quote me on that)

I lack knowledge for the heavy plough, but I'll be interested in seeing what others can say about it.

I meant early Bronze Age in terms of OTL Nordic Bronze Age. But allright, cool. So we have a allready more organized, wealthier and even warmer Scandinavia and North Germany than during the Iron Age. Since we can't change the climate of Earth without ASB, how would a Pre-Germanic civilization or Empire deal with that? Considering that they would allready had civilization and the heavy plough for 1500 years. Also considering that they would need more bronze because of more demand, how would they cope with this? Would they either start importing more tin or would they get an earlier iron age thanks to Bog iron? Would they also invade Prussia for it's amber? What would the North Sea and Baltic sea even bring for them? Also considering that the Bronze Age Pre-Germanics had no slavery, would they maybe have invented their own Aeolipile and used it as their own start of a industrial revolution? As far as I know the Aeolipile and Steam engines weren't seen as something usefull thanks to the abundance of slaves. So maybe this could become even a Pre-Germanic wank?

 

[Gloss]

Rather than ploughs which were invented quite later by much larger and more developed states and economies I would look into alternate domestications.
@metalinvader665 proposed in a neolithic context the idea of reindeer and moose being domesticated and a different type of agriculture that could take better advtange of local environments, but I'm not sure how it would play out in a late bronze age and early iron age context.

 

[Gwyain]

Rather than ploughs which were invented quite later by much larger and more developed states and economies I would look into alternate domestications.
@metalinvader665 proposed in a neolithic context the idea of reindeer and moose being domesticated and a different type of agriculture that could take better advtange of local environments, but I'm not sure how it would play out in a late bronze age and early iron age context.

I love alternate domesticates, but what advantage would that bring over the already extant cattle in this context?

 

[Arkenfolm]

I love alternate domesticates, but what advantage would that bring over the already extant cattle in this context?

They are animals better suited to swampy terrain (and moose in particular are practically aquatic) and require no selective breeding to make them tolerant to harsh cold (as OTL Northern European cattle did) and in any case are more likely to survive cold snaps than cattle.

The downside is that moose in particular require a certain sort of forest management to get them good browsing land and perhaps also wetland management to supplement the water plants moose also enjoy. For the former, humans get lots of berries, firewood, and mushrooms and it does supplement the OTL slashing and burning done. The latter is probably almost necessary to moose domestication since cultivating more wetland plants means more moose wandering around, and moose do eat a lot of weeds humans would rather not be in their water gardens.

For a post-agricultural POD this is likely very difficult so they'd probably stick with reindeer, maybe via an early domestication by the proto-Sami or another group at the fringe and then some cultural blending.

 

[DUWANG]

Rather than ploughs which were invented quite later by much larger and more developed states and economies I would look into alternate domestications.
@metalinvader665 proposed in a neolithic context the idea of reindeer and moose being domesticated and a different type of agriculture that could take better advtange of local environments, but I'm not sure how it would play out in a late bronze age and early iron age context.

Couldn't they "domesticate" Typha as another food source?

 

[Gloss]

They are animals better suited to swampy terrain (and moose in particular are practically aquatic) and require no selective breeding to make them tolerant to harsh cold (as OTL Northern European cattle did) and in any case are more likely to survive cold snaps than cattle.

The downside is that moose in particular require a certain sort of forest management to get them good browsing land and perhaps also wetland management to supplement the water plants moose also enjoy. For the former, humans get lots of berries, firewood, and mushrooms and it does supplement the OTL slashing and burning done. The latter is probably almost necessary to moose domestication since cultivating more wetland plants means more moose wandering around, and moose do eat a lot of weeds humans would rather not be in their water gardens.

For a post-agricultural POD this is likely very difficult so they'd probably stick with reindeer, maybe via an early domestication by the proto-Sami or another group at the fringe and then some cultural blending.

I have a couple questions:

• Where did moose and reindeer live at the time? Were they present in Denmark or Northern Germany in sizeable amounts? Well I know moose were widespread but I still wonder if there was a difference in density and if there is anything that makes them less likely to be domesticated in Germany vs Scandinavia.
• What are the best subspecies of reindeer and moose to domesticate? I recall you mentioning forest reindeer being better than OTL Sami mountain ones.
• How long would domestication take? You know how long it took for other similar sized animals or animals with similar wild behaviour?

 

[Arkenfolm]

Where did moose and reindeer live at the time? Were they present in Denmark or Northern Germany in sizeable amounts? Well I know moose were widespread but I still wonder if there was a difference in density and if there is anything that makes them less likely to be domesticated in Germany vs Scandinavia.

I'd assume if moose populations were thriving throughout Northern Europe into Roman times, then in the Nordic Bronze Age they were doing just as well, if not better. As for reindeer, their range had gradually retreated since the Ice Age but it was similar to the retreat of moose since Julius Caesar describes seeing one in the forests of Western Germania. So there's probably little difference between northern Germany and Scandinavia.

However, note that in many large mammals, populations in colder climates are usually larger than those in warmer climates, like for instance the East Siberian moose found in the frigid Kolyma is over 50% larger than the Eurasian elk (the moose species we're discussing here).

As for the best subspecies, if a society can domesticate it, it's the Finnish forest reindeer because it's larger than the domesticated species, but there's the important problem that it might be too difficult since domestication tends to flow down the path of least resistance. Why should a society waste their time with more elusive forest reindeer just because they're bigger when the smaller reindeer seem more amenable to human needs?

Domestication could take a few centuries to get tamed forms, much longer to get selectively bred forms. But a lot of it is dependent on what the society needs the animal for. The disadvantage of reindeer is that they're a fraction of the size of a cow or bull and produce far less milk, with their main redeeming value being in how much they can pull (30 to 40% of body weight), so that right there limits their utility and what they'll be bred for. I could kind of see them being akin to donkeys maybe. As for moose, they're larger but would have difficulties competing with horse or reindeer so I'm thinking they'd be status symbols for the elite, occasionally milked and slaughtered for meat or used to transport baggage but mostly enjoyed for their impressive horns. The horns, by the way, are an obvious usage since in addition to being used for tools and implements they also have antler velvet which TTL's European society might find a use for.

 

[Gwyain]

They are animals better suited to swampy terrain (and moose in particular are practically aquatic) and require no selective breeding to make them tolerant to harsh cold (as OTL Northern European cattle did) and in any case are more likely to survive cold snaps than cattle.

Oh I get that, but why would you bother doing it when you already have cattle at the PoD? The gains that moose bring just don't seem to justify the time and effort it would take when domestic cattle are already present, and the only way to change that is to go back significantly earlier than even the Battle Axe culture.

 

[Arkenfolm]

Oh I get that, but why would you bother doing it when you already have cattle at the PoD? The gains that moose bring just don't seem to justify the time and effort it would take when domestic cattle are already present, and the only way to change that is to go back significantly earlier than even the Battle Axe culture.

That's more or less true, although the prospect of domesticating moose seemed tantalising to people like the Swedes and Russians at various times in history thanks to the factors I mentioned. An earlier civilisation, valuing them for their horns and bulk, could make the leap over centuries to take the other steps. It's just as you said, it doesn't bring a lot of advantages so is very improbably. It's most likely to be done by a civilisation with indigenous aquaculture given the advantage of moose in swamps who would then alter their forestry practices, which as you noted, is rather before this POD.

 

[Gwyain]

That's more or less true, although the prospect of domesticating moose seemed tantalising to people like the Swedes and Russians at various times in history thanks to the factors I mentioned. An earlier civilisation, valuing them for their horns and bulk, could make the leap over centuries to take the other steps. It's just as you said, it doesn't bring a lot of advantages so is very improbably. It's most likely to be done by a civilisation with indigenous aquaculture given the advantage of moose in swamps who would then alter their forestry practices, which as you noted, is rather before this POD.

Wasn't that more to do with horses than oxen? A mount could be the justification needed for domestication I suppose though. I still think its unlikely unfortunately, moose would make an awesome domestic animal, but the New World I think is the easier place for that to happen.

To the OP, as with any Bronze Age, the biggest challenge to overcome is a source of tin. I'm not sure how much tin is available in Scandinavia, much less in antiquity, so that means reliance on trade routes from Britain and the Ore mountains. Not a deal breaker since most of the rest of Europe is doing the same, but that imposes some limits on how and when the Bronze age can reach the Pre-Germanic culture. OTL that's happening around the same time as the opening of the Amber Road, so I think that's the best bet, get it opened earlier and Bronze will comer earlier. I don't know a ton about the plough I'm afraid, so I can't help much there. It should be noted that Bronze is stronger (though heavier) than Iron though, so a Bronze headed plough should be able to work just as well as a cast iron one.

 

[SwampTiger]

I see a couple of issues in this idea.

1: Though bronze is as tough as iron, it is much more expensive. I doubt the average farmer could afford a bronze plough. If he could, wouldn't he have used the metal for weapons and armor? The nearest sources of tin are Cornwall, Dorset and the Ore mountains(Czech/German border).
2: The Nordic Bronze Age doesn't get going until 1700 BCE. Adequate supplies will take until 900 BCE at the earliest. Now you are approaching the Pre-Roman Iron Age. This period arose because of stresses from climate change and trade disruptions.
3: The Baltic region was still very marshy after the last major Ice Age because of the depressing the land due to the weight of the ice . It was still very cold. Land rebound took centuries and is still ongoing. Farming was still adapting to the conditions, as was herding.
4: Reindeer and moose have only been tamed to date. Actual domestication requires control over breeding. Hard to do with roving herds or solitary browsers.

Your idea is sound in 100 BCE. You could contrive earlier development of iron from contacts with southern Europe, which started iron technology somewhere between 1200 and 1000 BCE. Central Europe saw the Hallstatt Culture use iron from about 700 BCE. Of course, you could also have an early discovery of iron working in Scandinavia earlier, as did Sub-Saharan Africa , possibly as early as 2000 BCE. Search for the Nok culture and the sites of Lejja, Opi and Gbabiri. Scandinavia has large iron deposits, and bog iron.

 

[John7755 يوحنا]

I see a couple of issues in this idea.

1: Though bronze is as tough as iron, it is much more expensive. I doubt the average farmer could afford a bronze plough. If he could, wouldn't he have used the metal for weapons and armor? The nearest sources of tin are Cornwall, Dorset and the Ore mountains(Czech/German border).
2: The Nordic Bronze Age doesn't get going until 1700 BCE. Adequate supplies will take until 900 BCE at the earliest. Now you are approaching the Pre-Roman Iron Age. This period arose because of stresses from climate change and trade disruptions.
3: The Baltic region was still very marshy after the last major Ice Age because of the depressing the land due to the weight of the ice . It was still very cold. Land rebound took centuries and is still ongoing. Farming was still adapting to the conditions, as was herding.
4: Reindeer and moose have only been tamed to date. Actual domestication requires control over breeding. Hard to do with roving herds or solitary browsers.

Your idea is sound in 100 BCE. You could contrive earlier development of iron from contacts with southern Europe, which started iron technology somewhere between 1200 and 1000 BCE. Central Europe saw the Hallstatt Culture use iron from about 700 BCE. Of course, you could also have an early discovery of iron working in Scandinavia earlier, as did Sub-Saharan Africa , possibly as early as 2000 BCE. Search for the Nok culture and the sites of Lejja, Opi and Gbabiri. Scandinavia has large iron deposits, and bog iron.

I do not see why the Germanic peoples would have a harder time acquiring Bronze than Assyria, and they seemingly did possess some level of Bronze usage, as per the Tollense battle site and other sites. States of Mesopotamia had difficulty attaining the resources that the Germanic peoples would have ready access to, especially tin. If anything, we are more likely to see farmers using Bronze in these areas than in other lands. In the areas very nearby the Nordic regions, such as Britain, bronze and tine were so readily accessed and produced that vast quantities were used as sacrificial objects into water systems. Thousands of items were tossed into the rivers, ponds, lakes and so forth. Such activity would have been extremely taboo due to rarity in lands such as Mesopotamia. We even see signs that the tin mining was becoming even more excessive by the late Bronze Age, signifying a greater demands. My opinion, is that such demand could not possibly have only been being made due to the Mid East, but the increased production may have had much to do with the increasing number of buyers, many of whom must have existed across Europe.

 

[SwampTiger]

The late arrival of bronze working in Scandinavia and the lack of large usage of bronze in plough shares elsewhere leads me to doubt such usage in Scandinavia. Is it possible ? Yes. Is it likely? No. Britain had local sources for tin. Germany had sources of tin. Tin was transported to the Scandinavian users at a premium. There is a large difference in numbers of bronze objects in those locations and in Scandinavia.

 

[Gloss]

I'd assume if moose populations were thriving throughout Northern Europe into Roman times, then in the Nordic Bronze Age they were doing just as well, if not better. As for reindeer, their range had gradually retreated since the Ice Age but it was similar to the retreat of moose since Julius Caesar describes seeing one in the forests of Western Germania. So there's probably little difference between northern Germany and Scandinavia.

You are probably right, so it seems we have a very large area for domestication and where moose can thrive.

However, note that in many large mammals, populations in colder climates are usually larger than those in warmer climates, like for instance the East Siberian moose found in the frigid Kolyma is over 50% larger than the Eurasian elk (the moose species we're discussing here).

As for the best subspecies, if a society can domesticate it, it's the Finnish forest reindeer because it's larger than the domesticated species, but there's the important problem that it might be too difficult since domestication tends to flow down the path of least resistance. Why should a society waste their time with more elusive forest reindeer just because they're bigger when the smaller reindeer seem more amenable to human needs?

How much would size matter beyond having a moose large enough to be used as cavalry? Also weren't our horses eventually bred for size as well? I always heard the earlier horse couldn't be used as cavalry, reason why chariots were the first forms for cavalry based warfare. That would fix the issue of an initial smaller size of reindeer.

Domestication could take a few centuries to get tamed forms, much longer to get selectively bred forms. But a lot of it is dependent on what the society needs the animal for. The disadvantage of reindeer is that they're a fraction of the size of a cow or bull and produce far less milk, with their main redeeming value being in how much they can pull (30 to 40% of body weight), so that right there limits their utility and what they'll be bred for. I could kind of see them being akin to donkeys maybe. As for moose, they're larger but would have difficulties competing with horse or reindeer so I'm thinking they'd be status symbols for the elite, occasionally milked and slaughtered for meat or used to transport baggage but mostly enjoyed for their impressive horns. The horns, by the way, are an obvious usage since in addition to being used for tools and implements they also have antler velvet which TTL's European society might find a use for.

So it possible that if we start at around 1700 BCE then we could have domesticated reindeer or even moose by 700 BCE?

Oh I get that, but why would you bother doing it when you already have cattle at the PoD? The gains that moose bring just don't seem to justify the time and effort it would take when domestic cattle are already present, and the only way to change that is to go back significantly earlier than even the Battle Axe culture.

That's more or less true, although the prospect of domesticating moose seemed tantalising to people like the Swedes and Russians at various times in history thanks to the factors I mentioned. An earlier civilisation, valuing them for their horns and bulk, could make the leap over centuries to take the other steps. It's just as you said, it doesn't bring a lot of advantages so is very improbably. It's most likely to be done by a civilisation with indigenous aquaculture given the advantage of moose in swamps who would then alter their forestry practices, which as you noted, is rather before this POD.

I mean reindeer and moose seem to me more akin to the specialized camels and dromedaries than the almost universal livestock, plus I mean why were so many animals domesticated anyway? Goats, cattle, zebu, donkeys, water buffalos etc. would the domestication of reindeer or moose be out of place in that context?

 

[Gloss]

There is a large difference in numbers of bronze objects in those locations and in Scandinavia.

Is there? Where did you read that?

 

[Gwyain]

I mean reindeer and moose seem to me more akin to the specialized camels and dromedaries than the almost universal livestock, plus I mean why were so many animals domesticated anyway? Goats, cattle, zebu, donkeys, water buffalos etc. would the domestication of reindeer or moose be out of place in that context?

@DValdron has noted in previous threads that existing domestic animals tend to tend preclude new domestications in their niche, and if we look at where different animals were domesticated, that seems to bare out. The different cattle/buffalo domestications all took place in pretty widely different areas, where there was not an existing domestic stock for example. Once something is domesticated it can spread out obviously, but if you already have something that works, there just isn't a lot of reason to spend the high cost of time and resources to work towards a new one. That doesn't rule out the possibility entirely, after all, llamas and alpacas serve very similar roles and were probably domesticated around the same place, but it does make it a lot more difficult.

 

[bpbruce]

Domestic auroch? Or small mammoth the size of Ceylon elephants surviving on an island and broken to plow northern clay soil might work. Get them both underground like pit ponies to haul iron iron around.