Early and close German-Japanese WWII cooperation?

trurle

Banned
I see the discussion in the
https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...ubishi-zero-won-the-battle-of-britain.461199/
seems to derail to the German-Japanese cooperation topic, and therefore create a more focused thread.

Possibly questions need to be clarified:
1) How much OTL cooperation obstacles (large distance, lack of common goal, and lack of trust) can be overcome in ATL scenarios?
2) Is any hybrid German/Japanese WWII design with significant impact (similar or better than widely known Sherman Firefly)?
3) How much difference, in both peace and war, such cooperation can bring?


Some possibilities:
1) Raw materials exchange - for example, Japan had abundant nickel-manganese deposits but not enough chromium, with situation reverse in Germany - due access to Yugoslavian and Albanian chromium ores. IOTL, exchange was more limited to lower-volume materials (for example, German mercury swapped for Japanese caffeine and natural rubber).
2) Technological exchange - for example,Japanese super-duralumin (A7075) alloy tech for German equipment or blueprints (Japan had problems with screw making machines as late as in 1940)
3) Basing rights, may be with additional cooperating states within reach of both Japan and Germany (Axis Soviet Union, independent Iran or Axis Madagascar options)
4) Anything else?
 
Sake for Trockenbeerenauslese

//edited for spelling...it's been a long time since I've had any, much less had to spell the word. Could have played it safe and gone with "eiswein"//
 
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I recently discovered an online 'what if' scenario titled "France Fights On" that has a number of differences with the historical war, one of which being the Germans discover the Japanese developments in radial engine development an appropriate them for their own radial aircraft engines. The scenario is thus:

Enter the Japanese – Testing the Japanese engines

BMW were a little sceptical when the Air Arsenal-led multi-manufacturer team arrived in late 1940, bringing with them a number of representative and prototype engines. While Daimler-Benz quickly peeled off with the inline team, BMW worked with the radial team. They were startled at the lack of finish on the Japanese engines. What they observed was though there were far more fins/surface area than a comparable American, French, British or German engine, the fins were far cruder. Many ran into each other and showed the fact that they were from a casting process with very little cleanup beyond manual filing.

What really surprised BMW’s engineers and engine design staff was their simplicity. They compared a French Ghome-Rhone 14M engine with the Nakajima Sakae engine, a developed version based on that engine. The difference is that Nakajima took that engine, retooled it and made it so that instead of running at 700 hp it ran at 940 hp and required half the time to build. They then expanded the engine into the Sakae 21 series that had 1040 hp. Meanwhile Mitsubishi showed BMW an engine, Kinsei 43, which although not based on the GR-14, was similar in size and produced 1740 hp using 10 kg less weight and took less man-hours to manufacture than the Nakajima.
At this point, many technical lightbulbs began to light up in the heads of BMW’s design staff.

As for the Japanese, they looked at BMW-801 and asked many questions, most of which started with ‘Why on Earth?’ The engine, though producing about 1500 hp, was a gas hog (even though it was already used in designs like the Fw-200) by Japanese standards as among other things BMW used a very rich mix to assist in cylinder cooling. While a standard matter for aero engines, the Japanese demand for range had led them away from this particular path. Only the planned C and D versions of the engine promised to be somewhat fuel efficient, but only at low altitude.
The first point the Japanese made was that with BMW did not appear to have embedded their operational philosophy into their design philosophy. This brought about embarrassed silence and meek questions about that that comment meant. The Japanese responded that they had adopted what the operators said they wanted, codified it, and applied it to their design philosophy. What the operators wanted was simple, powerful, easy to maintain, low fuel consumption, rugged engines which worked in the field. The companies took this and applied it, also applying cost reduction as part of the design process. Once they understood that BMW did not do this, they noted that this explained the expensive and unnecessary over-engineering observed on the BMW-801, as well as the poor selection and layout of its auxiliaries.

The Japanese engines were then put onto the test stands in Germany and started up. The first one was a standard Mitsubishi MK4R-A 'Kasei 23E15' bomber engine which the Japanese team assured BMW was supposed to produce 1530 HP, although they also had a prototype R engine rated at 1750HP. After some issues with running incorrectly it was producing almost 1900 hp. The initial problems with running rough the Germans had seen earlier when they had to come up with tuning settings for their engines when going from 87 Octane to 100 octane. After discussions with the Mitsubishi representatives the mutually appalled Japanese and Germans realised that they were not using remotely comparable fuels. The Germans were astounded to be told the engine was tuned to standard Japanese bomber fuel – 72 octane. The Japanese were astounded to find out that the Germans used 100 octane. The Germans then realised the implications: what they had on the stand was an engine which produced 1530 HP on 72 octane fuel when their best radials produced 1539 HP on 100 octane.

Next they threw on the Nakajima NK9H 'Homare 21' engine which was supposed to produce 1990 HP. Instead it produced power over 2200 hp. The German engineers after seeing that would not even let them try to run the Mitsubishi MK9A 'Ha-211 Ru' engine which is supposed to run at 2200 hp. The German test stands were only rated to 2400 hp and they needed to be strengthened, which took a week. RLM was told immediately and a large RLM technical team quickly arrived.

By this time everything was on the table. The Japanese knew that the Germans could assist them in improving the octane ratings of their fuel, while both BMW and RLM knew that the long-established linkages between German and Japanese aviation industries had borne extremely valuable fruit. Both knew that they had things to exchange at the technical level. Quietly and behind the scenes, the BMW technical staffs began to work with their Japanese counterparts arranging technology swaps.

RLM now knew that the Japanese were using octane fuel in the 72-86 octane band and no better, and that they had mature, technologically advanced radial engines that could make the Fw-190 even faster and revolutionise the German fighter force. What to do? They discussed the options, which were to study the engines and adapt their ideas to new construction, license the engines and build them in Germany, using the secret of lead additive as a bargaining chip to buy the licenses? As technicians, the only thing they all rejected was ignoring it and continuing on as before.

As this point, Ambassador Onishi arrived with his close friend Heinrich Himmler – which made the policy issue political and at Hitler’s level. Frantic RLM staff immediately advised Goering, who arrived post-haste. He had quickly sent a brief to Hitler himself so as to head off or at least balance Himmler.

Onishi, well versed in Byzantine Nazi internal machinations, made a modest proposal to both. He suggested that, as BMW was receiving much equipment removed from wrecked French factories, that they and Japanese industry, through the Japanese Government Military Arsenal system set up a joint venture company to build a ‘new BMW engine’ to fill the workaday 900-1200hp range with a cheap, simple, easily maintained engine designed to use the relatively abundant lower quality fuels. This was immediately agreed to as it was an obvious commercial goldmine. He then suggested that, as both Japan and Germany had mutually supporting interests under the Tripartite Axis, that they agree broadly to a mutual, no-cost exchange under the GJTCA of synthetic fuel assistance for radial engine assistance. His trump card was asking the senior BMW engineers what their 801 would produce if BMW incorporated useful technological tweaks from the Japanese design philosophy. When he replied that it would produce about 2000 to 2200HP using less fuel, be easier to maintain and production costs would drop by, he guessed, a tenth, it was all over bar the detailed negotiations.

This solved a serious problem developing within the German aircraft engine industry. They understood that what they had would peak in capability by early 1942, and that the best which could be expected from a German radial engine that could fit an aircraft like the Fw-190 was about 1730 hp from the BMW 801D-2. Beyond that point the German industry just could not produce a meaningful engine in a radial. Only Liquid cooled in-line engines had shown promise going to higher hp ratings in that engine size range.

Among those who understood this was Kurt Tank, who was already thinking about how to put an in-line engine on the Fw-190 and create the D longnose. What these tests showed in stark terms was that in Japan, the complete opposite had happened. They already had radials that were in the 2200 hp range and were working on prototypes in hp ranges far higher than this. As a result of the Military Missions, BMW, DB and Jumo obtained access to engines and the Japanese who designed them to study and the results shocked them. Tank realised that this would turn the Luftwaffe on its head.

This changed everything for the Germans, and it changed nothing. They certainly realised that they had missed an entire development path but there just was not a lot most companies could do about it – except BMW. Not only had BMW been down this path with the Japanese before (their close relationship with Kawasaki from 1928 had been the direct cause of improvements to the BMV VI V-12 (450hp-550hp) which had resulted in the 800hp BMW VII V-12), they were the only ones with a modern, high quality radial engine core. As the Japanese said, when you stripped the BMW-801 back to its core it was a very good engine indeed, and easily able to accept what the Japanese had developed in terms of cylinder super-cooling, layout and fuel management. In return, BMW was able to fix developmental problems with advanced Japanese engines like MK9 by designing a better fuel injection system for it (which they could do in their sleep), and correct the faults with the licence-built Japanese DB-601, the Ha-40.

The testing of Japanese engines in 1941 under the GJTCA (and after the revelations of the Balbo Mission) led to a ferment at engineer and technical levels within BMW. As was normal within the German aviation industry, BMW already had many years of very close association with Japanese companies.

BMW-800.
This was developed during 1941 under Air Arsenal auspices by Kawasaki and Nakajima as a commercial venture with BMW. It married French machinery stripped from their damaged radial engine producing facilities and the basic GR-14 design to the technical advances of the Japanese Sakae (itself based on the GR-14 root). This engine had the advantages of being cheap to produce, reliable and as close to no risk as it was possible for an aero engine to be. It used the cheap and simple ‘cylinder super-cooling’ technology the Japanese had developed in casting fins into their cylinders. It was kept low-cost and minimised demands on skilled manpower. BMW adopted the cheap Japanese approach of casting innumerable fins in, and finishing by hand-filing using unskilled labour. This approach was justified as being acceptable for a ‘war emergency’ utility engine.

This was its own engine and was not a licence built Nakajima Sakae. It was firmly based on the GR-14 design as adapted to BMW building practises and attracted significant attention and even some input from Hungarian and Italian engine designers. The basic comparison unit was the NK1F Sakae21, this itself being developed from the GR-14 root. The BMW-800 produced 1110hp on take-off using the low octane fuels it was designed for. However, the engine could also be retuned to use better fuels, obtaining a useful 1270hp when using 100 octane fuel.

It was aimed at the Luftwaffe’s utility market and was used on trainers, transport aircraft, and specialist machines like the Hs-129, to which it gave a sparkling performance. It turned the Messerschmitt Gigant motorised glider into a transport aircraft.

The BMW-800 was produced in large numbers from early 1942. The first proof of concept versions were assembled from captured French components and hand-made parts from the BMW prototyping shops, but design was rapid and without the usual long debugging program as the concept was already mature. While this approach meant that performance was slightly below that of Sakae 21, BMW was not concerned with this. The engine’s development costs were very low and it was what the Luftwaffe needed in this engine range. The engine was unique in being developed to a timeline set by construction of new BMW annexes and bringing into service of captured French equipment.

BMW-801D
The 801C was replaced in production with the BMW 801 D-2 series engines in early 1942, which ran on C2/C3 100 octane fuel instead of the A/B/C's B4 87 octane. BMW was tooling up for this production when the Japanese bombshell burst. They continued with 801D in order to buy time to properly test and absorb the new technical tweaks being learned, but immediately began development of the 801E, using the 100 octane experience of the 801D and the excellent basic 801 engine core.

BMW-801E
It used the excellent engine core of the 801 series engine to best advantage. This engine fully incorporated the technical lessons learned from examining Japanese Kasei series engines as well as the formidable eighteen cylinder Nakajima NK9K Homare 22 (2000hp on 76 Octane fuel) and Mitsubishi MK9A (2200hp on 76 octane fuel). These technical tweaks included cylinder super-cooling through use of cast-in finning (although the Germans could not resist an expensive final finishing stage which made it look much less crude although it actually did nothing to improve cylinder cooling), and above all else incorporation of the engine philosophy the Japanese had developed.

The result was an engine that was simpler to build, easy to maintain, cheaper to manufacture, and which used less fuel than the earlier 801 versions. The BMW-801E produced 2060hp, a figure which astounded RLM and simply thrilled the Luftwaffe. Better, it did this without the planned system known as MW50, which injected a 50-50 water-methanol mixture into the supercharger output to cool it and reduce backpressure. This was still developed but did not appear until later in the war. When it did, it boosted low and medium-altitude performance improved considerably, with takeoff power increasing by another 170hp. The BMW 801G and H models were E engines modified for use in bomber roles with lower gear ratios for driving larger propellers, clockwise and counter-clockwise respectively.

As a result of developing the 2000hp class BMW-801E, the Fw-190A-4 entered service in the second half of 1942. Comparison to the Fw-190A-2 is instructive. The A-2 had a maximum speed of 322mph at 3,280’ and 389mph at 18,045’. The A-4 had the startling performance of 357mph at sea level, 415mph at 10,830’, and 440mph at 21,650’. The A-2 was a truly formidable opponent to contemporary RAF Spitfires but the A-4 outclassed literally everything in European skies. Fortunately for the Allies, it was dedicated at least initially to the eastern Front. There, despite its initial small numbers, it caused a slaughter in the ranks of the Red Air Force during the autumn of 1942 unprecedented since the ‘Fokker Scourge’. In one celebrated incident in the third month of the war there, six of these aircraft attacked a full regiment of 21 Yak fighters, and destroyed them all in four minutes.

One unexpected result of this was the creation of a Fw-190 fighter monoculture in Germany. It ensured the immediate obsolescence of the entire Messerschmitt single engine fighter line. Me-109 continued in production, but the Luftwaffe made it plain from early 1942 that the aircraft would leave production and that the company’s factories would replace them with Fw-190 in the production halls. In the end, the Me-109 did not leave production until late 1943, simply because the powerful new BMW-801E series could not be produced in sufficient volume to justify this. The Me-109 series was also exported to Italy, Hungary and Rumania.

BMW-802
This was the license-built version of the Nakajima NK9 Homare 22, a mature 18 cylinder design which reliably produced 2000hp. BMW purchased licences for this engine as its own 18-cylinder program was in trouble, and this engine was mature. RLM insisted on this for insurance purpose, and also because they wanted this to offer a development path to 2500hp as a bomber engine. This also made sense as Homare came from the Sakae root, and this increased BMW’s confidence and depth in this engine line.

BMW-803
This was the license-built version of the Mitsubishi MK9A, a 18 cylinder fighter engine design which produced 2200hp in its prototype version. It came from the Kinsei root, and this led to considerable interaction with the Italians, who were producing a variant of this engine. BMW purchased licences for this engine as its own 18-cylinder program was in trouble, and this engine offered more than the Homare 22. RLM insisted on this as they wanted this to offer a development path for fighters in the 2500hp-3000hp range as a fighter engine.

Supercharger development
With the engine now being used in higher-altitude fighter roles, a number of attempts were made to address the limited performance of the original supercharger. The BMW 801F was a modification of the E using supercharger gear ratios tuned to higher altitudes. Although takeoff power was unaffected, cruise power increased over 100 hp and "high power" modes for climb and combat were likewise improved by up to 150 hp. The F model was also used as the basis for the BMW 801R, which included a much more complex and powerful two-stage four-speed supercharger. Continued improvements to the basic high-altitude E model led to the BMW 801G, which dramatically improved performance across the board, with takeoff power increasing to 2,400 hp (1,790 kW). It was planned to use the F on all late-model Fw-190's, but the war ended before production started.

Turbocharger development
A number of attempts were made to use turbochargers on the BMW 801 series as well. The first used a modified BMW 801E to create the BMW 801J, delivering 2145hp, at takeoff and 1600 hp at 40,000 ft (12,200 m), an altitude where the E was struggling to produce 730 hp. The BMW 801F was likewise modified to create the BMW 801Q, delivering 1,875 hp at 40,000 ft (12,200 m), power ratings no existing allied engine could touch. However none of these engines ever entered production due to high costs, and the various high-altitude designs based on them were forced to turn to other engines entirely, typically the Junkers Jumo 213.

Edit: http://francefightson.yuku.com/topic/1091/APOD-Technical-paper-Luftwaffe-ver-2 (Source)

It should be noted too that the Japanese radial engines weighed only 50-75% of the BMW 801.
Is this a viable scenario? And what would happen if the Germans adopted Japanese engine ideas pre-war?

A quick comparison of contemporary engines:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakajima_Homare
General characteristics
Type: 18-cylinder air-cooled twin-row radial engine
Bore: 130 mm (5.12 in)
Stroke: 150 mm (5.91 in)
Displacement: 32 L (1,940 in³)
Length: 1,778 mm (70 in)
Diameter: 1,182 mm (46.5 in)
Dry weight: 830 kg (1,830 lb)

Components
Valvetrain: push rod operated overhead-valve system with 2 valves per cylinder
Supercharger: Two-speed single stage centrifugal
Fuel system: Water-methanol injection
Cooling system: Air-cooled
Performance
Power output: 1,485 kW (1,990 hp) at altitude
Specific power: 41.5 kW/L (0.91 hp/in³)
Compression ratio: 7.0
Power-to-weight ratio: 1.79 kW/kg (1.09 hp/lb)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_801#Sp ... W_801_C.29
General characteristics
Type: 14-cylinder supercharged two-row air-cooled radial engine
Bore: 156 mm (6.15 in)
Stroke: 156 mm (6.15 in)
Displacement: 41.8 litres (2,560 in³)
Length: 2,006 mm (79 in)
Diameter: 1,290 mm (51 in)
Dry weight: 1,012 kg (2,226 lb)

Components
Valvetrain: One intake and one sodium-cooled exhaust valve per cylinder
Supercharger: Gear-driven single-stage two-speed
Fuel system: Fuel injection
Cooling system: Air-cooled
Performance
Power output: 1,560 PS (1,539 hp, 1,147 kW) at 2,700 rpm for takeoff at sea level
Specific power: 27.44 kW/L (0.60 hp/in³)
Compression ratio: 6.5:1
Specific fuel consumption: 0.308 kg/(kW·h) (0.506 lb/(hp·h))
Power-to-weight ratio: 1.13 kW/kg (0.69 hp/lb)
 
Apparently they actually had a technology exchange program IOTL, but were too withholding to really share each of their advancements:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoji_Ito#VHF
In late 1940 Commander Ito led a technical-exchange mission to Germany. Fluent in the German language and holding a doctorate from Dresden Technische Hochschule, he was well received. Staying several months, he became aware of their pulse-modulated radio equipment for detecting and ranging, and immediately sent word back to Japan that this technology should be incorporated in the NTRI-JRC effort. On August 2, 1941, even before Ito returned to Japan, funds were allocated for the initial development of a pulse-modulated Radio Range Finder (RRF – the Japanese code name for a radar).

The Germans had not yet developed a magnetron suitable for use in such systems, so their equipment operated in the VHF region. At the NTRI, they followed the Germans and built a prototype VHF set operating at 4.2 m (71 MHz) and producing about 5 kW. This was completed on a crash basis, and in early September 1941, the set detected a bomber at a range of 97 km (61 mi). The system, Japan’s first full radar, was designated Mark 1 Model 1 and quickly went into production.[6]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar_in_World_War_II#Japan
In the years prior to World War II, Japan had knowledgeable researchers in the technologies necessary for radar; they were especially advanced in magnetron development.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoji_Ito
Tsuneo Ito (no relationship to Yoji Ito) at Tokoku University developed an 8-split-anode magnetron that produced about 10 W at 10 cm (3 GHz). Based on its appearance, it was named Tachibana (or Mandarin, an orange citrus fruit). Tsuneo Ito joined the NTRI and continued his research on magnetrons in association with Yoji Ito. In 1937, they developed the technique of coupling adjacent segments (calling it push-pull), resulting in frequency stability, an extremely important magnetron breakthrough.[2][3]

Shigeru Nakajima,[4] a younger brother of Yoji Ito and a scientist at the Japan Radio Company (JRC), was also investigating magnetrons, primarily for the medical dielectric heating (diathermy) market. An alliance was made between NTRI and JRC for further magnetron development. In early 1939, led by Yoji Ito they built a 10-cm (3-GHz), stable-frequency Mandarin-type magnetron (No. M3) that, with water cooling, could produce 500-W power.[2]

Development at the NTRI continued on magnetrons, resulting in higher and higher power. Yoji Ito and others eventually came to believe that this device might be used as a weapon, encouraged by an earlier newspaper article telling of Nikola Tesla inventing a beam that would “bring down squadrons of aircraft 250 miles away.”[7] In 1943, work began in highest secrecy on a Ku-go (Death Ray) device.

A special laboratory was set up near Shimada, in the Shizuoka Prefecture, for developing a high-power magnetron that, if not as powerful as Tesla had boasted, might at least incapacitate an aircraft. A number of Japan’s leading physicists were involved. A 20 cm magnetron producing 100 kW was achieved, and by the end of the war a 1000 kW (1 MW) unit was undergoing preliminary testing.[6] At that time, the development was terminated and the hardware as well as all documentation was destroyed.[8]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavity_magnetron
The cavity magnetron was widely used during World War II in microwave radar equipment and is often credited with giving Allied radar a considerable performance advantage over German and Japaneseradars, thus directly influencing the outcome of the war. It was later described by American historian James Phinney Baxter III as "[t]he most valuable cargo ever brought to our shores".[29]

What if during the 1940 exchange Ito shared his developments with cavity magnetrons and set up a permanent exchange with the Germans to develop an enhanced program, with both sides sharing developments? It would sort of be like an Axis Tizard mission. The Germans had developed a magnetron in 1935, but because they hadn't worked out the physics of it yet, the phase shift created major problems in frequency stability, so they dropped it; by 1939 Ito had developed a frequency stable magnetron that fixed the problem the Germans had with their design. IOTL it took until they had shot down an RAF pathfinder in early 1943 with H2S radar mapping system that they got their hands on a working advanced magnetron and realized just how badly they screwed up and how far behind they were, which led them to rip it off and produce a few units at the end of the war.

Here with a less advanced unit, but in late 1940 they'd actually have time to develop the technology in conjunction with Japan, creating radar units with it probably by 1942, at least matching Allied developments, which would have far reaching consequences for the nighttime strategic bomber offensive.

Any thoughts on what such a cooperation would produce and what impact it would have on the conflict?
 

trurle

Banned
It should be noted too that the Japanese radial engines weighed only 50-75% of the BMW 801.
Is this a viable scenario? And what would happen if the Germans adopted Japanese engine ideas pre-war?
Early versions of Nakajima Homare had so much defects what their power/weight was just 1.17 kW/kg, on par with OTL BMW801. I understand the potential though. Most likely we are looking for the faster Fw-190A in German service, reaching ~700 km/h maximum speed after quality control problems of Japanese radial engine design are fixed by 1944.
It is difficult to quantify, but Soviet fighter aces memoirs mentioned OTL Fw-190 with radial engines were slightly easier to kill compared to contemporary Bf-109. Upgraded Fw-190A will likely out-climb and out-run similar Soviet La-5 of liquid-cooled Yak-9, and will still be competitive with P-47 when it will arrive.
Downside is what fuel consumption of Luftwaffe is going to increase by 100~250 liters/fighter/day. Japanese engines, designed for "ultra-lean cruise" to extend range, would also result in lower optimal cruise speed, making them worse as long-range interceptors, but may be better bomber escorts.

Regarding Japanese 3 GHz microwave magnetrons, these would not be immediately useful for radars as diode receivers were ineffective over 1 GHz frequency. Yoji`s airborne FD-2 radar was at the limit of available receiver element base, with 1.2GHz operating frequency. It would still be improvement over German 0.5Ghz early airborne radar sets. Overall, smaller range of Japanese-inspired radars, but also less weight and cost. May be magnetron radars would be installed on wing leaders of all bomber escort missions, reducing chance been ambushed.

For stationary radars, high frequency is less useful because of required greater range and increased ground clutter, and clutter cancellers available during WWII were only envelope-type based on electro-acoustic delay lines. These were good enough at low frequencies, but were failing at higher frequency due clutter variability.

Summary effects of Japanese cooperation:
1) German bomber raids become much more difficult to disrupt or stop due higher powered escorts, need 50% more allied fighters for this
2) German fighters attrition rate reduced by at 15-30%, and bombers by ~10% for at least 2 years span

Overall, we will likely see Germans pushing further in 1942, and may be avoiding OTL routs in Belarus and Normandy in summer 1944. The perspectives for 1945 are still very bad for Germany though.
 
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thaddeus

Donor
they had a strange alliance, if it was to be mutually beneficial they needed some common goals more than aircraft engines. (discounting world domination as mutually beneficial goal)

and remember Japan had little interest in close cooperation with Germany? at least until they defeated France. although the Imperial navy offered some information on carriers (some) one can guess they simply wanted Germany to be distraction for UK and US?
 
It will be best for both sides if they also realize the need for cooperation at strategic level. Starting with the joint invasion of the SU. The SU is far to dangerous to be left unchecked. The japanese should destroy Vladivostok and cut the transsiberian railroad. Don't provoke the US too much until the Soviet Union is out of business. Some training crews for torpedo bombers together with the Long Lance torpedo would be useful against the Arctic convois.
 
[snip]...although the Imperial navy offered some information on carriers (some) one can guess they simply wanted Germany to be distraction for UK and US?

Yes Germany was receiving some information on IJN carriers but Japan was keeping more recent lessons to themselves.

Germany can use torpedo and high-pressure boiler information, Japan can use radar information as well as samples of more powerful aircraft engines. Strategic supplies can also be exchanged.

But it was an odd relationship and neither side really trusted the other...
 
An earlier, more involved and more sincere German-Japanese cooperation would've meant a tougher playing field for the Allies.
As for the military gear, Germany can help Japan alot. 1st and foremost - radars (ship-, land- and aircraft-based types) and other radio equipment (radios, jammers, ELINT). This is a force multiplier, necessary for ww2 warfare made by aircraft and ships, the main weapon systems used on vast Asian & Pacific expanses. Aircraft without good radios are of questionable use.
Next - aircraft engines and whole aircraft. Have just one Japanese company make DB 601/605 under licence, and another Jumo 211/213, plus jet engines. Mandatory license production of Fw 190, even with Japanese engines. Other licence production contracts might involve Ju 87, Ju 88, Do 217, Me 262, He 162, Arado Blitz. Licences for MG FFM, MG, 151/20, Mine shell.
MG-34/-42, MP-38/-40, 5 cm pak. Pz-IV. MK 101 and 103, 3.7cm Flak - needed for ground defense, but especially for ship air defense.
No 8.8 Flak.
Japan might sent blueprints for the 'knee mortar', torpedoes (for all platforms), Kawainshi H6K, Mitsubishi Kinsei and Ha-42.

Japanese radials from the 'France Fights on' that wiking kindly provided never existed.
 

trurle

Banned
Next - aircraft engines and whole aircraft. Have just one Japanese company make DB 601/605 under licence,
Japanese already did it OTL. Aichi Atsuta-32 and Kawasaki Ha-40 were license built DB-601. Severe reliability problems have happened.

and another Jumo 211/213, plus jet engines.
Japanese used on light bombers (Ki-51 and such) Mitsubishi Zuisei radial engine which had comparable performance compared to Jumo 211, but had 5 years longer production history meaning high reliability. Newer Mitsubishi Kinsei and Mitsubishi Kasei bomber engines have actually quite outperformed Jumo 211.
Regarding jet engines, i agree Japanese could benefit from earlier jet engine design import, although BMW-003 which was copied in OTL Japan in 1945 had the teething reliability/longevity problems even in Germany, and these problems were never solved in Japan.
OTL, Japanese Tsu-11 motorjet (with all its engineering failures) using licensed German Hirth HM-504 for compressor stage had the larger impact on the course of the war.

Mandatory license production of Fw 190, even with Japanese engines. Other licence production contracts might involve Ju 87, Ju 88, Do 217, Me 262, He 162, Arado Blitz. Licences for MG FFM, MG, 151/20, Mine shell.
All this set did not help Germany in the end,right?
In general, mass-licensing have severe drawback of required production chain compatibility - you need to build entire production chain, and some of Japanese tools and manufacturing equipment would turn out to be inadequate. IOTL, Japanese before WWII matched their tool-set more with France, and therefore were easier to adopt French-inspired designs. I shudder just imagining the level of industry change necessary to produce Ju-87 in Japan, apart from the fact Ju-87 was likely worse for ground-attack than similar Japanese dive bomber Ki-51. Actually, Japanese evaluated Ju-87 in 1938, and decided to produce Ki-51 instead. Larger airframes will have even more problems.

I like the idea of Fw-190 with Japanese radial engine though.

Regarding aircraft cannons, i had the impression the Japanese have more problems with production capacity rather than quality of design. If true, introducing additional models of aircraft cannons will actually make situation worse for Japan.
MG-34/-42, MP-38/-40, 5 cm pak. Pz-IV. MK 101 and 103, 3.7cm Flak - needed for ground defense, but especially for ship air defense. No 8.8 Flak.
Yes, it is widely known the Japanese screwed up badly with medium-caliber AA guns, concentrating on ineffective 25mm Type 96, and failing to adopt 40mm Bofors after protracted modification program in 1942-1943 has failed. I.m.h.o., 3.7cm Flak was worse than 40mm Bofors for ship protection, and 3.7cm flak cartridge chamber&breech was absolutely not compatible with Japanese 37mm (obsolete) fragmentation cartridge stocks for 3.7cm Type 94 guns, making necessary to develop new ammunition for 37mm AA too. Regarding small arms, their effect on course of war is small.:)

Japan might sent blueprints for the 'knee mortar', torpedoes (for all platforms), Kawainshi H6K, Mitsubishi Kinsei and Ha-42.
OTL, Japanese provided Germany with Type 91 aerial torpedo design in 1942, ant it was built as LT 850. 4-engined patrol seaplanes like the H6K and H8K were likely superior to German models, but see the previous comment about difficulty to transfer entire airframe design, especially largest ones. Regarding "Knee mortars", Germans were actually phasing out 50mm mortars production during the war as these deemed to be ineffective, and also because of captured huge Soviet stocks.
Kinsei engine may be formalized enough design for technology transfer. Ha-42 was likely not sufficiently developed to be transferred without entire Japanese factory staff.

Japanese radials from the 'France Fights on' that wiking kindly provided never existed.
Could you elaborate? I understand the citation in question is alternative-history fiction and evaluate accordingly.
 
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Deleted member 1487

Japanese cavity magnetron research should have been shared with Germany when Colonel Ito was visiting Germany in 1940-41 for technical information that jump started Japanese radar research. I don't know if he even bothered to mention anything about it or the Germans didn't care about it, but the end result was that the Germans lacked that critical advance at a time they could have gotten a serious jump start.

Regarding "Knee mortars", Germans were actually phasing out 50mm mortars production during the war as these deemed to be ineffective, and also because of captured huge Soviet stocks.
Their own 50mm mortar, which weighed nearly 3x more than the 'Knee Mortar'. The French 50mm mortar was even lighter than that. In the end they continued using theirs, the Soviets', and the captured French 50mm mortars throughout the war even though they phased out production of their own model. So it wasn't that they considered the 50mm ineffective, it's that their model was WAY to heavy and expensive for the throwing weight. Of course they did that to make it as accurate as possible to make up for the low throwing weight, but hit the exact wrong balance for the caliber. The Knee Mortar was the way to do it if they wanted as heavy a shell as the Germans were using, but the French 50mm mortar was probably the way to do it period and simply have a lighter shell so that they could carry many more of them and have a mortar that was lighter than a rifle and a system that was more accurate, longer ranged, and lighter weight than a rifle grenade setup. Of course when you capture a bunch of Soviet models, just use that which is free and abundant, even if they were so crap the Soviets dumped them and adopted a model more like the German one.
 

McPherson

Banned
It will be best for both sides if they also realize the need for cooperation at strategic level. Starting with the joint invasion of the SU. The SU is far to dangerous to be left unchecked. The japanese should destroy Vladivostok and cut the transsiberian railroad. Don't provoke the US too much until the Soviet Union is out of business. Some training crews for torpedo bombers together with the Long Lance torpedo would be useful against the Arctic convois.

The Germans simply do not have the know how to duplicate an oxygen torpedo. Outside of Great Britain, I do not know of any nation beside Japan or Switzerland or the very late war United States that will have the precision skill sets to handle both the clean room disciplines and the hand built tubing assemblies required.
 

McPherson

Banned
An earlier, more involved and more sincere German-Japanese cooperation would've meant a tougher playing field for the Allies.
As for the military gear, Germany can help Japan alot. 1st and foremost - radars (ship-, land- and aircraft-based types) and other radio equipment (radios, jammers, ELINT). This is a force multiplier, necessary for ww2 warfare made by aircraft and ships, the main weapon systems used on vast Asian & Pacific expanses. Aircraft without good radios are of questionable use.
Next - aircraft engines and whole aircraft. Have just one Japanese company make DB 601/605 under licence, and another Jumo 211/213, plus jet engines. Mandatory license production of Fw 190, even with Japanese engines. Other licence production contracts might involve Ju 87, Ju 88, Do 217, Me 262, He 162, Arado Blitz. Licences for MG FFM, MG, 151/20, Mine shell.
MG-34/-42, MP-38/-40, 5 cm pak. Pz-IV. MK 101 and 103, 3.7cm Flak - needed for ground defense, but especially for ship air defense.
No 8.8 Flak.
Japan might sent blueprints for the 'knee mortar', torpedoes (for all platforms), Kawainshi H6K, Mitsubishi Kinsei and Ha-42.

Japanese radials from the 'France Fights on' that wiking kindly provided never existed.

The problem is that German and Japanese industrial practices are too radically different. The Germans tended to concentrate everything, while the Japanese industrialists subcontracted assemblies and subsystems. German aircraft will not easily adapt to that format. The Japanese will have to redesign everything to fit their manufacturing and engineering practices. Same going the other way.
 
It will be best for both sides if they also realize the need for cooperation at strategic level. Starting with the joint invasion of the SU. The SU is far to dangerous to be left unchecked. The japanese should destroy Vladivostok and cut the transsiberian railroad. Don't provoke the US too much until the Soviet Union is out of business. Some training crews for torpedo bombers together with the Long Lance torpedo would be useful against the Arctic convois.

The problem is that invading the Russian far east just doesn't give the Japanese the resources they desperately needed.

A invasion of the Soviet Union is almost guranteed to produce the sort of American embargo that threatened to completely cripple the Japanese pre war. The soviet far east doesn't give the Japanese the tin, rubber, and especially oil the Japanese needed.

That and getting into another huge continental fight when they still haven't subdued the Chinese is pure foolishness.
 

McPherson

Banned
That and getting into another huge continental fight when they still haven't subdued the Chinese is pure foolishness.

You know, something? Getting stomped is indeed kind of foolish, but when picking your Godzilla, would you prefer MacArthur or Zhukov? At least with Zhukov you know the bear cannot swim.
 
You know, something? Getting stomped is indeed kind of foolish, but when picking your Godzilla, would you prefer MacArthur or Zhukov? At least with Zhukov you know the bear cannot swim.

Even if they conquer the Russian far east in the short term it just doesn't offer them the right resources. They'd be left being forced to garrison a very large under developed region. All while still starving for oil.
 

McPherson

Banned
Even if they conquer the Russian far east in the short term it just doesn't offer them the right resources. They'd be left being forced to garrison a very large under developed region. All while still starving for oil.

upload_2019-2-5_0-30-19.png


1. Northern Sakhalin.
2. Gold, Silver, lead, coal, tin and TUNGSTEN.
China-Industry-1971.jpg



Might have been worth a shot? The key lackers are rubber and chrome.
 
Japanese already did it OTL. Aichi Atsuta-32 and Kawasaki Ha-40 were license built DB-601. Severe reliability problems have happened.

They did not - DB 605 was never licensed, neither were the Jumo 211/213. Plus, two separate companies bought a license to make the same engine (Aichi botching up the process) - not this time.


Japanese used on light bombers (Ki-51 and such) Mitsubishi Zuisei radial engine which had comparable performance compared to Jumo 211, but had 5 years longer production history meaning high reliability. Newer Mitsubishi Kinsei and Mitsubishi Kasei bomber engines have actually quite outperformed Jumo 211.
Regarding jet engines, i agree Japanese could benefit from earlier jet engine design import, although BMW-003 which was copied in OTL Japan in 1945 had the teething reliability/longevity problems even in Germany, and these problems were never solved in Japan.
OTL, Japanese Tsu-11 motorjet (with all its engineering failures) using licensed German Hirth HM-504 for compressor stage had the larger impact on the course of the war.

The light bomber saga needs to be stopped ASAP. Ju 87B already ccarried up to 1000 kg bomb, it's derivative 87R carried drop tanks, the Ju 87D upped the payload to 1800 kg. Ki 15 and Ki 51 with 250 kg were years behind the curve. Jumo 211 series was reliable, too. Zuisei featured 2/3rds of power of Jumo 211 series. German engines I've suggested used 87 oct fuel, unlike the Japanese 1000+ HP engines that used 91-92 oct.
I did not suggested that Kinsei and Kasei will be cancelled. Actually, Kinsei might be a good fit for the Ju 87.


All this set did not help Germany in the end,right?

Germany lost the war due to mistakes of their grand strategy, not due to deficiencies of their equipment.

In general, mass-licensing have severe drawback of required production chain compatibility - you need to build entire production chain, and some of Japanese tools and manufacturing equipment would turn out to be inadequate. IOTL, Japanese before WWII matched their tool-set more with France, and therefore were easier to adopt French-inspired designs. I shudder just imagining the level of industry change necessary to produce Ju-87 in Japan, apart from the fact Ju-87 was likely worse for ground-attack than similar Japanese dive bomber Ki-51. Actually, Japanese evaluated Ju-87 in 1938, and decided to produce Ki-51 instead. Larger airframes will have even more problems.

We don't need to repeat Japanese mistakes in ALT history. Ju 87 was a fine dive bomber, with ever-increasing payload from 1938-41, Ki-51 was unable to match it. Re. big aircraft licencing - it was done with DC-3 in Japan already. Licencing a Do 217 removes the need to design a host of Japanese 2-engined bombers.
Nakajima was developing from Bristol Jupiter in the 1930s, not from the French, and moved to indigenous designs in 1940s.

Regarding aircraft cannons, i had the impression the Japanese have more problems with production capacity rather than quality of design. If true, introducing additional models of aircraft cannons will actually make situation worse for Japan.

Introducing MG 151/20 in early 1942 can mean that development of Type 99-II, Ho-3 and Ho-5 is cancelled, Japanese designers can concentrate on 30 mm stuff instead.

Yes, it is widely known the Japanese screwed up badly with medium-caliber AA guns, concentrating on ineffective 25mm Type 96, and failing to adopt 40mm Bofors after protracted modification program in 1942-1943 has failed. I.m.h.o., 3.7cm Flak was worse than 40mm Bofors for ship protection, and 3.7cm flak cartridge chamber&breech was absolutely not compatible with Japanese 37mm (obsolete) fragmentation cartridge stocks for 3.7cm Type 94 guns, making necessary to develop new ammunition for 37mm AA too. Regarding small arms, their effect on course of war is small.:)

I agree that German 37mm was one notch under the 40 mm Bofors, however this is about German/Japanese cooperation. Germans also developed the ammo, no need for Japanese to do it again.

Could you elaborate? I understand the citation in question is alternative-history fiction and evaluate accordingly.

Stating that Japanese engines were making the levels of power in early 1940s as they were actually making later in the war is a huge red flag. Stating that they used 72 octane fuel to achieve it is just a load of bull.
 
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thaddeus

Donor
That and getting into another huge continental fight when they still haven't subdued the Chinese is pure foolishness.

You know, something? Getting stomped is indeed kind of foolish, but when picking your Godzilla, would you prefer MacArthur or Zhukov? At least with Zhukov you know the bear cannot swim.

NOT intervening against Soviets also makes a very big assumption? they would not have to necessarily seize vast territory other than Sakhalin and to block Far East route for L-L?
 
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trurle

Banned
The light bomber saga needs to be stopped ASAP. Ju 87B already ccarried up to 1000 kg bomb, it's derivative 87R carried drop tanks, the Ju 87D upped the payload to 1800 kg. Ki 15 and Ki 51 with 250 kg were years behind the curve. Jumo 211 series was reliable, too. Zuisei featured 2/3rds of power of Jumo 211 series. German engines I've suggested used 87 oct fuel, unlike the Japanese 1000+ HP engines that used 91-92 oct.
Ki-51 was dropping his 4x50kg bombs (or 12x15kg bombs) into 5-meter diameter circle. Ju-87B was dropping same 4x50kg plus one 250kg or 500kg bomb into 30-meter diameter circle. For 1000kg payload, Ju-87 needed to offload defensive gunner (same arrangement did exist for Ki-51 with 250kg single bomb).

From Soviet diaries, Ju-87 were frequently failing to hit target like pontoon bridge or column of vehicles on road, even acting in group. Same diaries mention Ki-51 invariably breaking railroad line or power transmission line in single dive, with 2 15-kg bombs.

Still think the Ju-87 was better as dive bomber?

P.S. More direct analog of Ju-87 was Japanese Ki-32 (450kg bombload hitting with help of prayer). The Ki-51 was developed as successor to it.
 
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