Early and close German-Japanese WWII cooperation?

German jet engines did use hollow blades for cooling

I know.
Hollow blades were also used on the turbocharger that was part of BMW 801J power egg (used operationally on Ju 388).

and after WW2 it became the primary method of cooling turbines:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbine_blade#Internal_cooling
It may not have been necessary for the Allies during WW2 due to how low powered the engines were, which resulted in less heat build up, but increasing speed mean the need for cooling regardless of the materials used.

If one really needs to cool the blades, than yes - make them hollow. But if one has access to good materials, then non-hollow blades were used.

Do you have some links for the Ford patents and info about the Wright turbos? I'd like to see more info about them.

The Wright 800TSB-A1 turbocharger + intercooler was also proposed by Bell to be installed on the P-63 version. Quote from pg. 194 of 'Vee's for victory':
"The Wright turbo featured air-cooled turbine blades ..."
Provided is also a schematics for the such the installation on P-63. For production of Wright engines and turbochargers, see here, the turbocharger in case is at pg. 17.
As for the Ford, I'm afraid you might want to join the AEHS (few US$ per year), where the Ford's 1650 cu in aero engine is discussed in detail in the Member's Area, including the patented turbo with hollow turbine blades.
 
unless China is removed from the scenario it is hard to achieve an earlier Germany-Japan collaboration? (insert your own opinion here as to how much Germany aided KMT, so there are possible butterflies with Japanese performance in 1937?)

once Vichy regime was established their prerogatives are more vital to Germany than Japan also? so dealing away Indochina to Japan gained Germany-France nothing?

back to the OP. possibly the German military mission could be to Manchuria and/or Thailand instead of aiding the KMT regime? then their goals inside China would not conflict for 1930's.

no need for grand gesture of Anti-Comintern Pact then to try to stitch Japan and KMT together, could allow for German-Soviet economic relations to resurge. (they never completely ended)
 

nbcman

Donor
back to the OP. possibly the German military mission could be to Manchuria and/or Thailand instead of aiding the KMT regime? then their goals inside China would not conflict for 1930's.

no need for grand gesture of Anti-Comintern Pact then to try to stitch Japan and KMT together, could allow for German-Soviet economic relations to resurge. (they never completely ended)
Probably not to Japanese controlled Manchuria. The Japanese only created Manchukuo in 1932 and would probably not want a country that formerly had a Concession in East Asia getting a foothold into their new colony. Additionally, the Nazis came into power soon thereafter and their thugs were beating up Asians students at German universities and spreading 'yellow Peril' propaganda. The German - Japanese relationship wasn't very good in the early and mid 1930's - and you'd have to have Notzis to make it better.

Siam was not very stable in the early 1930s with revolutions, a civil war then a military take over. Maybe a Prussian / German trained faction of the military could take over earlier and then request a Mission?
 

Deleted member 1487

If one really needs to cool the blades, than yes - make them hollow. But if one has access to good materials, then non-hollow blades were used.
That's the thing everyone has moved to hollow blades; in fact they now are not only hollow but have a bunch of holes drilled in them to aid cooling and are much more powerful than they were in WW2, so hollow blades weren't/aren't necessary for better thrust. If anything it seems that non-hollow blades were the dead end.

The Wright 800TSB-A1 turbocharger + intercooler was also proposed by Bell to be installed on the P-63 version. Quote from pg. 194 of 'Vee's for victory':
"The Wright turbo featured air-cooled turbine blades ..."
Provided is also a schematics for the such the installation on P-63. For production of Wright engines and turbochargers, see here, the turbocharger in case is at pg. 17.
As for the Ford, I'm afraid you might want to join the AEHS (few US$ per year), where the Ford's 1650 cu in aero engine is discussed in detail in the Member's Area, including the patented turbo with hollow turbine blades.
Thank you for the information and links.
 
back to the OP. possibly the German military mission could be to Manchuria and/or Thailand instead of aiding the KMT regime? then their goals inside China would not conflict for 1930's.

no need for grand gesture of Anti-Comintern Pact then to try to stitch Japan and KMT together, could allow for German-Soviet economic relations to resurge. (they never completely ended)

Probably not to Japanese controlled Manchuria. The Japanese only created Manchukuo in 1932 and would probably not want a country that formerly had a Concession in East Asia getting a foothold into their new colony. The German - Japanese relationship wasn't very good in the early and mid 1930's - and you'd have to have Notzis to make it better.

Siam was not very stable in the early 1930s with revolutions, a civil war then a military take over. Maybe a Prussian / German trained faction of the military could take over earlier and then request a Mission?

my understanding the Germans were dealing with Zhang Zuolin and later (at least) hosted his son Zhang Xueliang? thought they might have retained some German mission there for their own purposes? and for Germany it was always mainly an economic motive.

Thailand is an interesting possible though as they have tungsten, a large part of Sino-German arrangement. at least some percent of Thai officers attended German schools, not sure about Phibun.
 

trurle

Banned
my understanding the Germans were dealing with Zhang Zuolin and later (at least) hosted his son Zhang Xueliang? thought they might have retained some German mission there for their own purposes? and for Germany it was always mainly an economic motive.

Thailand is an interesting possible though as they have tungsten, a large part of Sino-German arrangement. at least some percent of Thai officers attended German schools, not sure about Phibun.
The Thai deposits are a small fraction of nearby Burma, with mining rates ~400 tonnes per year. Burma before in 1917-1937 mined yearly ~3000 tonnes of tungsten. Even Japan mainland produced 600 tonnes of tungsten per year in same period. Actual tungsten hotspot was Nanling Mountains in China (6700 tonnes/year) - 37% of pre-WWII world production
 
Japan would actually stand to benefit the most. German engineers could give Japan the ability to refine higher octane aviation gas. Japanese aircraft would benefit from the higher octane fuel it would increase performance and range.
German guns would help the Japanese Army the MG 34 and MG 42 were superior to Japanese machine guns in reliability and of fire while being lighter. Those would be very welcome additions the Japanese island on defense strategy.
Tungsten anti-tank ammunition would also make the American island-hopping campaign more costly.
 
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Japan would actually stand to benefit the most. German engineers could give Japan the ability to refine higher octane aviation gas. Japanese aircraft would benefit from the higher octane fuel it would increase performance and range.

I am dubious about German oil refinery tech. Synthetics from coal? Might be better for Japan as China has coal, as does japan.

German guns would help the Japanese Army the MG 34 and MG 42 were superior to Japanese machine guns in reliability and of fire while being lighter. Those would be very welcome additions the Japanese island on defense strategy.

Japanese would benefit from bullet technology more than machine guns operating systems that wasted ammunition at huge prodigious rates. Nothing basically wrong with the Hotchkiss or Holek gas operation principles or the very accurate quite reliable machine guns that the Japanese produced from them. The problem was ammunition. The alloy jackets the Japanese used to case their bullets corroded rapidly in the tropics and lacquering the bullets did not help. German bullets tended to not foul their machine guns and were far less corrosive when wet.
Tungsten anti-tank ammunition would also make the American island-hopping campaign more costly.

True, but it (Wolfram) makes war application in machine tools, high temperature alloys for standard ICE and jets and other interesting uses more valuable. Want to stop a Sherman? Use a Japanese Type 4 70 mm antitank rocket launcher.

Where the Germans can really help with resources comes in the areas of basic organic chemistry and in gas glass blowing.

Gas glass blowing? Yes, gas glass blowing, does one know how much early radar, electronic calculators, and RADIO depended on precision manufactured vacuum tube technology? The Japanese were severely handicapped because unlike the Germans and the allies, they could not get electronics out to their operating forces in quantity. They had to blow their glass tubes the hard way, with their lungs. High failure and reject rates. Radars, radios, and associated electronic guidance systems coupled to them, of which the Japanese actually had decent usable gear developed in the lab as bench models, was scarce in the field because of that vacuum tube manufacturing bottleneck. Murphy, if the Japanese had figured much earlier out how to mass produce electronics in quantity the war would have been a lot rougher on the Allies.
 
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The Thai deposits are a small fraction of nearby Burma, with mining rates ~400 tonnes per year. Burma before in 1917-1937 mined yearly ~3000 tonnes of tungsten. Even Japan mainland produced 600 tonnes of tungsten per year in same period. Actual tungsten hotspot was Nanling Mountains in China (6700 tonnes/year) - 37% of pre-WWII world production

OK, was playing along with premise of closer German-Japanese cooperation. do not have knowledge on what kind of production Thailand could achieve with some industrial aid? (peak AFAIK, was 600t anum)

they could trade with China and Thailand and when Japan became a seeming ally, end their relationship with KMT China to aid their courtship?

OR (closer to my view) decide their commercial relationship with China and their collaboration with Vichy regime more valuable?
 

trurle

Banned
OK, was playing along with premise of closer German-Japanese cooperation. do not have knowledge on what kind of production Thailand could achieve with some industrial aid? (peak AFAIK, was 600t anum)

they could trade with China and Thailand and when Japan became a seeming ally, end their relationship with KMT China to aid their courtship?

OR (closer to my view) decide their commercial relationship with China and their collaboration with Vichy regime more valuable?
The tungsten ore usually occurs in thin veins, therefore mining is labor intensive and mechanization benefits are not large. Modern 600 tons/year is already close to ceiling for Thailand.
Political route (switching allies) you depict is definitely possible though.
 
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