How the Mitsubishi Zero won the Battle of Britain

zeroluftwaffe.jpg


Quoted from the following source:
https://hushkit.net/2012/10/21/how-the-zero-won-the-battle-of-britain/

"In this subjunctive history, we look at how the Luftwaffe’s Mitsubishi A6M ‘Zero’s were a decisive weapon in the Battle of Britain.

In the Messerschmitt Bf 109 the Luftwaffe possessed possibly the World’s finest fighter aircraft at the beginning of the Second World War. It was superlative in all regards save one: range. Given the Luftwaffe’s primary role as a tactical force, operating in support of the Army in a Blitzkrieg attack, this was not seen as a major problem. Despite this, some consideration was given by the Reichsluftfahrtministerium (RLM) to the problem of bomber escort over longer ranges and the initial response to this requirement was Messerschmitt’s Bf 110 which seemed to offer a fine solution and was, in its way, a fine aircraft. It was, however, a large twin-engined machine and a small but vocal group of officers within the Luftwaffe remained unconvinced by its ability to combat the latest single-engined fighters that were being constructed in ever-greater numbers in France and the United Kingdom – aircraft that would however be hard pressed to deal with a machine in the class of the 109.

In early 1939 the RLM began to look around for a suitable single-engined fighter to operate in concert with the 109 over greater distances. One Italian aircraft appeared to fit the bill admirably, the Reggiane Re.2000. Unfortunately for the Germans the Reggiane fighter had already been ordered in quantity by the RAF and the Reggiane factory had no spare capacity nor were they particularly keen on the prospect of granting a production licence to a German manufacturer as Germany represented the likeliest opponent for any RAF fighter in the near future. Thus the Germans looked further afield and their attention became drawn to a small fighter newly produced by Japan and barely noticed by the International community, the Mitsubishi A6M, first flown in the Imperial Japanese year 2600 and thus known as Type 00 ‘Reisen’, the Zero.

After signing the 1936 Anti-Comintern pact, Japan was keen to foster good relations with Germany and following wildly enthusiastic reports from German test-pilots flying pre-series machines a production licence was sought and gained. Additionally a small number of Japanese-built aircraft were despatched to Germany. The first German-built aircraft was completed by Arado in record time and, amazingly, Zeros entered Luftwaffe service before they appeared in the ranks of the Imperial Japanese Navy. By the time the Zero was available in numbers the Polish and French campaigns were over and some began to regard the Japanese fighter as a needless extravagance in the light of the Luftwaffe’s dominance over any opposition so far encountered by it. The upcoming Battle of Britain would see that opinion reversed in the most dramatic fashion.

The initial forays by the Luftwaffe over Britain produced mixed-results. The airfields attacked in the early stages were within range of the 109s and bomber losses were not excessive. By contrast both the Stukas and the Bf 110s suffered appalling losses at the hands of Fighter Command’s Spitfires and Hurricanes and were quickly withdrawn from combat. Lacking the desire to commit a non-German aircraft to the fray, the Zeros were initially lightly used but with the shift of the attack towards London they would became the saviours of the German forces. The 109s could operate for barely ten minutes over London before their fuel level compelled them to return to base.

No such problem for the Zero, with triple the range (more with a drop tank), it could not only escort the bombers to and from France but could also protect the aircraft of Luftflotte 5 on their attacks from Norway. So outstanding was the Zero’s combat persistence that Spitfire pilots sent to intercept them found that they had to break off combat to refuel. This endurance would have counted for naught had it been an inferior combat aircraft but the Zero was truly exceptional. The A6M2 as committed to combat over Britain was better armed than any contemporary fighter (with the exception of the flawed Messerschmitt 110) mounting two machine guns and two 20 mm MG-FF/M wing cannons. Its maneuverability was legendary and it could easily out turn any European monoplane fighter.

spitfire_versus_zero.jpg


It is true that both the 109 and Spitfire were faster but the Zero could sustain a much higher angle of attack forcing an attacking fighter to break off or stall. Its only real flaw was its light construction and lack of armour but with the rifle-calibre machine guns mounted by the British fighters this was not so much of a problem as it would later prove when the Zero was required to deal with a later generation of American fighters in the Pacific. Nonetheless many Zeros were lost to damage that any British (or indeed German) fighter would have survived.

It was not invincible but, out-manoeuvred and out-gunned, the RAF fighters needed a height advantage to have a reasonable chance of success. Scrambled to intercept incoming formations with limited notice, height was an advantage the British aircraft seldom possessed. The Spitfire with its superior speed could break off combat at will but the Hurricane was slower, less manoeuvrable and less well armed than the Zero. German pilots were generally veterans of Poland and France or Spain and this experience, coupled with the dominant technical superiority of their Japanese equipment resulted in the gradual erosion of Fighter Command until an effective defence could no longer be maintained and the Heinkel 111s and Junkers 88s could bomb virtually at will and the Battle of Britain was effectively won for Germany.

Desperate measures would be needed to avoid invasion and defeat.

Captain Eric ‘Winkle’ Brown evaluated a Zero at the A&AEE and said later of the aircraft “the Zero had ruled the roost totally and was the finest fighter in the world until mid-1943”. It is a compelling irony that this invader from the land of the Rising Sun led to the twilight of the British Empire.

Feldwebel Heinz Bar by this time had scored 12 victories in his A6M Model 22 ‘White 13’. His final total was 220 confirmed kills in over 1000 combat sorties."

After looking over this article, I ask myself, how likely is this scenario? Are there any flaws in it and how likely does it actually seem to be?
 
the zero was not proof against the 0.303 . it would have been less survivable then the Me-109 as it had no self sealing fuel tanks or pilot armour . Even if every Me-109 was replaced with the Zero it will not replace the fact that every loss is a pilot and aircraft lost . The British could easily have mounted a standing patrol or done something more revolutionary and bounced the Luftwaffe on the way home . The Zero also had a problem in that it's best turning speed was below 200 mph and at higher speeds was not as manoeuvrable , while the Hurricane and Spitfire did not suffer from the same problem .

The RAF would have after finding out what worked and did not have found countermeasure's that work .
 
The Zero was also not available early enough. The Japanese didn’t even have it in service until mid 1940, so how are the Germans going to get significant numbers by September?

But add in the weight of self sealing fuel tanks, armour and a radio which any European airforce would probably consider mandatory for that generation of fighters and the performance of the A6M would be significantly reduced.
 

trurle

Banned
The Zero was also not available early enough. The Japanese didn’t even have it in service until mid 1940, so how are the Germans going to get significant numbers by September?

But add in the weight of self sealing fuel tanks, armour and a radio which any European airforce would probably consider mandatory for that generation of fighters and the performance of the A6M would be significantly reduced.
After looking over this article, I ask myself, how likely is this scenario? Are there any flaws in it and how likely does it actually seem to be?
To make it less a stretch, you should replace Mitsubishi Zero for Ki-43, which has very similar design, but have 2 main advantage for transfer to Germany:
1) It is land-plane, not overloaded with unnecessary carrier-borne features of Zero (therefore had about 10% better climb rate and 5% longer range)
2) You can add ~200kg pilot armour or heavier guns, and still get the performance on par with Mitsubishi Zero.

I also think the Germans can quickly upgrade the Ki-43 with MG 151/15 and later with MG 151/20 - Japanese engineers had a lot of problems first convincing pilots to accept 12.7mm Ho-103 HMGs on Ki-43, and then they have an acute shortage of 12.7mm guns as Pacific War unfolded.

The level of Japanese cooperation must be impossible though - Ki-43 and Zero were both comprising top-secret Al-Zn alloy (A7075 recently invented in Japan), and providing aircraft made of it to abroad was close to impossible, unless the situation for Japan was very different from IOTL.

The downside is what Japanese started producing Ki-43 from February 1941, too late for Battle of Britain. You may get the late prototype and a full set of production jigs sometimes in middle 1940, but transfer and adaptation time will mean first Ki-43 squadrons will not be flying until early 1941 or lat 1940 at most.

P.S. By the way, Ki-43 was specifically designed to kill Spitfires.

From Japanese wikipedia:
"Kasō tekidearu Igirisu-gun shin'ei sentōki supittofaia ni taikō kanō to kangae rare, honrai wa rikugun shuryoku sentōki to narubeki ki 44"
Translation:
During design, its virtual competitor was British Spitfire, and it (Ki-43) was developed as stopgap fighter for this role until Ki-44 could be manufactured
 
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Don Quijote

Banned
There's a similar article here at ModelingMadness - not altogether likely but it makes a good enough backstory to explain the model.
 
It might have impacted the Battle of Britian - had the Battle of Britain taken place in 1942!

Before that it was not really in serial production (98 built in 1940 mostly after Oct - in single figure production before then - effectively still in development) and just over 400 in 41 - I use these numbers to show that it was not ready for combat in the summer of 1940

Also not sure how it overcomes the RAF Fighter command air defence network and the Luftwaffes ADHD approch to a strategy

And by the time it was ready - the FW190 was also ready!

Lastly the Battle of Britian was fought at a rareified altitude to the battles the Zero became famous for in the Pacific and Far East - at such altitudes its Nakajima would be weezing

Lack of radio, lack of armour - nah it would suck once its few tricks was learned in such an environment and RAF pilots learned how to deal with it.






Good Luck with that
 
I'm not an expert but I recall reading somewhere that the German engineers tweaked the A6M engine and got a lot more performance. If that were true you could theoretically add the extra weight talked about and still have the same (or better) performance.

The concept the OP is presenting is that had the endurance of the 109 been 30 - 60 minutes greater Germany probably would have won the Battle of Britain. I'm not sure that's the case but as close as the outcome was that factor could have tipped the scale.
 

DougM

Donor
Not saying it could happen, but if it did the US Navy is not going to be as surprised by the Zero in early 42 as they were. I am sure that the US Navy will have better tactics worked out thanks to the RAF passing on info.
 

trajen777

Banned
Nice start -- you might want to (per above suggestion) -- add a tweak for increased power and add a few things -- ie the self fueling tanks, and armor and make it net neutral --- the other thing is the 109 in Spain operated with wooden drop tanks -- i never saw a reference as to why they were never used in bob

I always find it funny on a AH website how many people "that cant happen pop up" ha ha
 
I'm not an expert but I recall reading somewhere that the German engineers tweaked the A6M engine and got a lot more performance. If that were true you could theoretically add the extra weight talked about and still have the same (or better) performance.

The concept the OP is presenting is that had the endurance of the 109 been 30 - 60 minutes greater Germany probably would have won the Battle of Britain. I'm not sure that's the case but as close as the outcome was that factor could have tipped the scale.

Mayby not even tweaks, I have read somewhere that the Japanese used a very low octane fuel. Germans have acces to much higher octane fuel. Would this be enough?
 
Nice start -- you might want to (per above suggestion) -- add a tweak for increased power and add a few things -- ie the self fueling tanks, and armor and make it net neutral --- the other thing is the 109 in Spain operated with wooden drop tanks -- i never saw a reference as to why they were never used in bob

I always find it funny on a AH website how many people "that cant happen pop up" ha ha

Generally drop tanks had be dropped the moment the aircraft got into combat, my suspicion is that since the UK (and combat area) is close enough to the airfields in France that not much is gained by using fuel tanks.

I agree it is strange how many people are hostile to ideas like a successful Sealion...
 
Generally drop tanks had be dropped the moment the aircraft got into combat, my suspicion is that since the UK (and combat area) is close enough to the airfields in France that not much is gained by using fuel tanks.

I agree it is strange how many people are hostile to ideas like a successful Sealion...
I think people think that Sealion is impossible is because the German Kriegsmarine was in no condition to support such an operation. On top of that, I do believe that the Germans did not have very good landing-craft...
 

trajen777

Banned
Generally drop tanks had be dropped the moment the aircraft got into combat, my suspicion is that since the UK (and combat area) is close enough to the airfields in France that not much is gained by using fuel tanks.

I agree it is strange how many people are hostile to ideas like a successful Sealion...

I have never looked at the distance -- but would be interesting to see a 109 distance from base to lets say mid channel and what would be the extra distance gained over London for example.
 
The Me-109 had the maneuverability but not the range. The Me-110 had the range but not the maneuverability.

What Germany really needed was something like the P-51 "Mustang", but that was beyond their capabilities in 1939-40.
 
I agree it is strange how many people are hostile to ideas like a successful Sealion...

No-one's ever come up with a plan for that which actually works without needing the RN to forget how to sail boats, the RAF forgetting how to fly planes and the British Army forgetting how rifles, tanks and guns work.
 
No-one's ever come up with a plan for that which actually works without needing the RN to forget how to sail boats, the RAF forgetting how to fly planes and the British Army forgetting how rifles, tanks and guns work.

And the Germans to not treat it as a somewhat more complicated river crossing...
 
...In early 1939 the RLM began to look around for a suitable single-engined fighter to operate in concert with the 109 over greater distances. One Italian aircraft appeared to fit the bill admirably, the Reggiane Re.2000.
...
No such problem for the Zero, with triple the range (more with a drop tank), it could not only escort the bombers to and from France but could also protect the aircraft of Luftflotte 5 on their attacks from Norway. So outstanding was the Zero’s combat persistence that Spitfire pilots sent to intercept them found that they had to break off combat to refuel. This endurance would have counted for naught had it been an inferior combat aircraft but the Zero was truly exceptional. The A6M2 as committed to combat over Britain was better armed than any contemporary fighter (with the exception of the flawed Messerschmitt 110) mounting two machine guns and two 20 mm MG-FF/M wing cannons. Its maneuverability was legendary and it could easily out turn any European monoplane fighter.
...
It was not invincible but, out-manoeuvred and out-gunned, the RAF fighters needed a height advantage to have a reasonable chance of success. Scrambled to intercept incoming formations with limited notice, height was an advantage the British aircraft seldom possessed.
...the Hurricane was slower, less manoeuvrable and less well armed than the Zero...
...the dominant technical superiority of their Japanese equipment ...

After looking over this article, I ask myself, how likely is this scenario? Are there any flaws in it and how likely does it actually seem to be?

There are indeed several flaws in the article.
For fighter vs. fighter combat - Hurricanes and Spitfires were better armed, especially against a fighter that sported next to no protection. RAF fighters were not scrambeld on short notice. Hurricane was barely slower than A6M2 - 10 mph? Without drop tank, Zero didn't have triple range vs. Bf 109E. Switch to Zeros still leaves 60 rd drums on cannons - running out of ammo not good for a long-endurance fighter in a contested airspace.
Not having protection means that experienced LW pilots are lost due to bullet that strayed into the fuel tank(s) or pilot himself. Zero was not a small fighter when compared with Bf 109. Re.2000 was a short ranged fighter.

Then we have questions: What engine will power German Zero? What Germany is not making in order to make Zeroes? From where the pilots are to come?

To make it less a stretch, you should replace Mitsubishi Zero for Ki-43, which has very similar design, but have 2 main advantage for transfer to Germany:
1) It is land-plane, not overloaded with unnecessary carrier-borne features of Zero (therefore had about 10% better climb rate and 5% longer range)
2) You can add ~200kg pilot armour or heavier guns, and still get the performance on par with Mitsubishi Zero.

I also think the Germans can quickly upgrade the Ki-43 with MG 151/15 and later with MG 151/20 - Japanese engineers had a lot of problems first convincing pilots to accept 12.7mm Ho-103 HMGs on Ki-43, and then they have an acute shortage of 12.7mm guns as Pacific War unfolded.

The level of Japanese cooperation must be impossible though - Ki-43 and Zero were both comprising top-secret Al-Zn alloy (A7075 recently invented in Japan), and providing aircraft made of it to abroad was close to impossible, unless the situation for Japan was very different from IOTL.

The downside is what Japanese started producing Ki-43 from February 1941, too late for Battle of Britain. You may get the late prototype and a full set of production jigs sometimes in middle 1940, but transfer and adaptation time will mean first Ki-43 squadrons will not be flying until early 1941 or lat 1940 at most.

P.S. By the way, Ki-43 was specifically designed to kill Spitfires.

From Japanese wikipedia:
"Kasō tekidearu Igirisu-gun shin'ei sentōki supittofaia ni taikō kanō to kangae rare, honrai wa rikugun shuryoku sentōki to narubeki ki 44"
Translation:
During design, its virtual competitor was British Spitfire, and it (Ki-43) was developed as stopgap fighter for this role until Ki-44 could be manufactured

I don't think that anyone can prove that Ki-43 was specifically designed to kill Spitfires. Ki-43 didn't get cannons (in European sense) until prototypes in 1945 flew. In 1941-43, Ki-43 was slower fighter than Zero, on about same horsepower.
 
OK, back to the OP's actual question instead of bringing up Sealion...

Could the German's have taken/stolen a PW 1830 and put it on the A6M Zero frame? The BMW 801 wasn't available until 1939 and the Jumo's aren't a workable solution, so where do the German's get a fighter type radial engine since they really wouldn't want the Zero's (let alone trying to get the Japanese to sell one to Germany).

I think the weapons were reasonably able to be changed to meet the German specs...plus the LW weapons would be better than the ones Japan was putting on the aircraft.

So the next issue is trying to figure out a way in which the LW requests through the German ambassador to Japan the plans for the long-distance fighter in 1938. But the question is why would they ask for that when the Bf-110 was supposed to be the escort for long-range missions. Something has to happen to Goering's and Udet's love affair with the "destroyer" in 1936.
 
OK, back to the OP's actual question instead of bringing up a sea/land war...

Excellent idea :)

Could the German's have taken/stolen a PW 1830 and put it on the A6M Zero frame? The BMW 801 wasn't available until 1939 and the Jumo's aren't a workable solution, so where do the German's get a fighter type radial engine since they really wouldn't want the Zero's (let alone trying to get the Japanese to sell one to Germany).

I think the weapons were reasonably able to be changed to meet the German specs...plus the LW weapons would be better than the ones Japan was putting on the aircraft.

So the next issue is trying to figure out a way in which the LW requests through the German ambassador to Japan the plans for the long-distance fighter in 1938. But the question is why would they ask for that when the Bf-110 was supposed to be the escort for long-range missions. Something has to happen to Goering's and Udet's love affair with the "destroyer" in 1936.

My take (that goes agains the premise of the thread, but never the less) is that a drop-tank facility on Bf 109E solves the escort problem far better & in a more timely manner than LW's A6M2.
 
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