Dread Nought but the Fury of the Seas
- Thread starter sts-200
- Start date
Thanx...
As *every* ship gets sunk except the New Zealand. Wonder what traditions *that* would start...
You don't, or as you say below - you can't.
Indeed, and IMO the precept of AoN was never fully tested. Specifically, I have a problem with the theory that shells encountering unarmoured parts of the ship tend not to explode - thin plate might not trigger a shell, but a girder or solid piece of machinery might.
There's also an example of the RN and USN taking different paths. Later RN turrets were not especially well protected, but the ships certainly were (c.f. KGV 1936), as opposed to the US philosophy of very heavy turret protection - I believe in some cases thicker plates than they found they could reliably produce.
Do you build a ship that can survive damage and keep fighting, or do you build a ship that can 'take damage, but not explode'.
Both were tried in reality, and will be in the story - but not necessarily in the same way.
SsgtC
Banned
I have to disagree here. There are many, many examples of heavy armor piercing shells scoring hits on unarmored parts of the ship and passing clean through without causing any damage other than the hole where it entered and another where it exited. Any machinery heavy and solid enough to trigger the fuze should be behind armor. For a frame to trigger the fuze would be the mother of all Golden BBs when you consider the angle you need to hit it at to trigger it. Putting a thin layer of armor over it won't do anything to stop a heavy shell, but it'll essentially guarantee that the shell detonates
Indeed there are, and I'm certainly not saying AoN was invalid - it was a well-considered set of design theories that allowed for very tough armour where it was essential for the survival of a ship, and it disposed of the outdated theories of graduated armour.
Just so, but I note from your italics that you realise that wasn't always the case - again, not usually due to poor design, but due to the realities of closing a design.
Not really. The frames took up at least 10% of the area of a hull, and projecting that onto non-normal impacts (i.e. off-beam and descending) increases that ratio. However, I would agree that not all frames will be tough enough to trigger the inter-war AP delay fuses.
Even so, there are problems - The enemy might be unkind enough to use HE, and (probably more importantly) no armour = no splinter protection; which means areas outside the citadel are more easily riddled by near misses and by the effect of hits on armoured areas.
Now, all ships were designed to survive with their ends riddled (AoN or not), but their fighting ability and seaworthyness was seriously impaired long before that. A ship with a more spread out armour scheme might not suffer the same level of peripheral damage, and might therefore maintain speed for longer (or not).
Ultimately, it's a balance of risks, and I would say that AoN is not necessarily the only answer (even though I agree that it was a good one).
I would also note that the RN started to move away from 'pure AoN' with their last battleship design; Vanguard had significant splinter protection outside of the citadel.
I believe similar ideas made it into the last USN designs too, but I'm not as familiar with those.
SsgtC
Banned
No, it wasn't always the case. But the odds of one random piece of machinery taking up less than 1% of the hull getting hit are astronomically low. Of course, there odds get rapidly worse the more equipment you mount outside the armor. But at that point, you very obviously need to redesign anyway since you've got so much vital equipment outside the armor. To me, it's still not a good idea to just slap a little armor over that spot though. Because unless it's a full thickness piece of plate, all you've done is guaranteed that any shell hitting it will blow.
The odds of a battleship using HE against another battleship are vanishingly small. Until WWII when the battlewagons were relegated too primarily shore bombardment, most battleships didn't even carry HE in their magazines. Or if they did, it was a max of 5-10 shells per gun.
As for splinter damage, that is a consideration. The tricky part is providing thick enough splinter protection without it being so think it triggers the fuse from any shell hitting it.
As an example, one of the few pieces of machinery sturdy enough to reliably fuze armor-piercing projectiles were turbine reduction gears. Those would definitely be behind armor.
It's definitely one of those 'Oooh... nasty' problems.
The designer must have drunk a lot of seawater if they weren't!
I was thinking more along the lines of capstan engines, mooring and anchor tackle and the joints between frame girders.
SsgtC
Banned
None of those will trigger the fuse on an AP shell. You need high tensile steel to do that and none of those were made with that
I'd like to see some evidence to support that, as basic Physics doesn't (and incidentally frames were often HT steel).
The fuse doesn't care what the shell hits, it only requires a minimum peak force and a minimum total impulse to trigger it, which can only be provided by the shell slowing down as it hits a solid object of sufficient mass.
If it hits a thin steel plate, the minimum impulse criterion won't be met, as the plate won't slow the shell down much.
If it hits a enormous thick block of wood, the minimum force criterion won't be met, as the shell might slow down (even to a complete stop) but it will decelerate relatively slowly as it smashes its way through the block.
Based on my understanding that it took 3-6" of armour plate to trigger a properly-designed fuse, that minimum mass is somewhere around half the weight of the shell.
In case we're getting confused between triggering and penetration - I agree that any decent AP shell will cleanly penetrate through any of the 'soft' objects I have mentioned.
I will also note that very long-delay fuses (particularly the later Japanese ones) could allow the shell to pass through the ship in the time between triggering and detonation.
Added to that, I understand that those Japanese fuses weren't especially well designed, as they tended to fail on oblique impacts.
Stavanger 14 - Desperate to Escape
Stavanger 14 – Desperate to Escape
As Markgraf disappeared beneath the waves, the battered Royal Oak and Warspite turned to weave their way through the hard-steaming line of 2nd Battle Squadron. As the rest of 5BS turned to follow the battlecruisers, Admiral Evan-Thomas had signalled them to detach and head north, seeking shelter behind the Grand Fleet. Neither ship could maintain high speeds, and they could do little to attack the enemy as turrets were out of action, fire-control equipment was disabled, and crews were pressed into fighting fires and shoring up bulkheads.
For the sailors of Admiral Jerram's leading ships, it could have been an unnerving sight if it were not for the circumstances. In just a few minutes' firing, they had destroyed an enemy battleship and beaten off a torpedo boat attack, and so rather than look in horror at what might lie in their future, the crews cheered as the battered ships limped through the line.
If two of the Royal Navy’s most powerful warships were so heavily damaged, there had clearly been an intense battle in which many of the enemy’s ships must have already been sunk by these mighty ships. To think otherwise was impossible.
As men poked their heads out of turrets, peered through their sights or the gaps in their gunshields, there were cheers and choruses of ‘God save the King’, and ‘Rule Britannia’ shouted out over the waves.
‘Did you leave any for us?’, shouted a Leading Seaman on board Conqueror.
Like all the rest, his words were lost to the wind, but it gave his mates in the turret a good laugh, just when they needed it. Morale in the Grand Fleet was high, and it was climbing.
On another ship some miles to the east, morale was lower, and it was falling. Shortly before 6.50, Admiral Hipper finally realised that the Grand Fleet was out. His flagship Lutzow's radio had been damaged, and so messages had to be relayed by lamp from the battered Seydlitz. Even without this delay, Admiral Scheer's use of radio had left a lot to be desired as he hadn’t immediately signalled when he encountered the main British battlefleet and made his turn South.
Hipper's ships were now overmatched by the British battlecruisers. His own increasingly ragged salvos appeared to be doing little harm, while the British gunnery seemed to be improving. Splashes were still erupting around his ships every few seconds, and the enemy’s line had now been reinforced by a fresh pair of ‘Invincible’ class ships. There was some comfort that at least one British ship had fallen out, but there was no chance that he would be able to finish off any damaged stragglers. Now, it was a question of survival.
At 6.50, he ordered the remains of 1st Scouting Group to turn southeast, which in the interim would preserve his options for retreat either through the Skagerrak or south to Wilhelmshaven.
15,000 yards to the North, the leading British ships of 1BCS were having difficulty in holding the range, but astern of them the fire of 3BCS was very good. They were fresh to the fight and had recently conducted gunnery practice off the north of Scotland. Even though they were firing at close to the maximum range of their 12" guns, Invincible jammed Lutzow's D-turret with a hit on the barbette-turret joint, while New Zealand’s fire sprung rivets and displaced plates near Goeben's bow and abeam A-turret. From an even longer range, the three remaining ships of 5BS re-entered the fray against the German battlecruisers, but their early ranging shots were short and Hipper's ships disappeared into the mists and the smoke of their own funnels before any hits were obtained. It is possible that a near-miss which led to minor leaks near Seydlitz's rear turret may have been from one of Barham's last shells before she checked fire.
As increasingly ragged lines of German ships sailed south or southeast, they began to slip away into the haze in the minutes before 7.00.
Aboard the Bayern, Admiral Scheer found himself studying the plotting table that he had previously regarded as an unnecessary piece of clutter at the rear of the bridge. As he did so, he felt a degree of surprise; was it only this morning that he had been thinking that?
Since then, the situation had certainly changed. Then, he had been planning a trap; now, he was trying to escape one and run for home. He wanted to be sure, or at least as sure as possible, that he wouldn’t run into the English Fleet again. In that respect, the plot was clear; the enemy had been to the north, sailing East, and although his torpedo boats had held them off, by now they must be pursuing him somewhere to the north and north-east.
To escape, he knew he had three options.
He could sail south-southwest, towards Terschelling and then return home behind the relative safety of the minefields. That would be the longest way home, but according to the plot it would mean he could sail directly away from where he thought the Grand Fleet was.
He could turn East, and try to reach Kiel through the Skaggerak, but that was clearly impractical as the British would be somewhere to the northeast and could have him silhouetted against the setting sun as he approached.
However, he believed the third approach was the safest, as it was the most direct one; to keep heading south-southeast, towards the Horns Reef. He would have to keep his speed up to cross ahead of the British, but he could guard against them surprising him by stationing his torpedo boats at the rear of the line. There was a risk the British battlecruisers might outrun him, somewhere to the East, but he considered it unlikely.
He knew they were heavily damaged, and he hoped that they wouldn’t risk another action unless closely supported by their main fleet.
At 7.02, signals went out to the ships of I and III Geschwaders to make for the Horns Reef at top speed.
As Markgraf disappeared beneath the waves, the battered Royal Oak and Warspite turned to weave their way through the hard-steaming line of 2nd Battle Squadron. As the rest of 5BS turned to follow the battlecruisers, Admiral Evan-Thomas had signalled them to detach and head north, seeking shelter behind the Grand Fleet. Neither ship could maintain high speeds, and they could do little to attack the enemy as turrets were out of action, fire-control equipment was disabled, and crews were pressed into fighting fires and shoring up bulkheads.
For the sailors of Admiral Jerram's leading ships, it could have been an unnerving sight if it were not for the circumstances. In just a few minutes' firing, they had destroyed an enemy battleship and beaten off a torpedo boat attack, and so rather than look in horror at what might lie in their future, the crews cheered as the battered ships limped through the line.
If two of the Royal Navy’s most powerful warships were so heavily damaged, there had clearly been an intense battle in which many of the enemy’s ships must have already been sunk by these mighty ships. To think otherwise was impossible.
As men poked their heads out of turrets, peered through their sights or the gaps in their gunshields, there were cheers and choruses of ‘God save the King’, and ‘Rule Britannia’ shouted out over the waves.
‘Did you leave any for us?’, shouted a Leading Seaman on board Conqueror.
Like all the rest, his words were lost to the wind, but it gave his mates in the turret a good laugh, just when they needed it. Morale in the Grand Fleet was high, and it was climbing.
On another ship some miles to the east, morale was lower, and it was falling. Shortly before 6.50, Admiral Hipper finally realised that the Grand Fleet was out. His flagship Lutzow's radio had been damaged, and so messages had to be relayed by lamp from the battered Seydlitz. Even without this delay, Admiral Scheer's use of radio had left a lot to be desired as he hadn’t immediately signalled when he encountered the main British battlefleet and made his turn South.
Hipper's ships were now overmatched by the British battlecruisers. His own increasingly ragged salvos appeared to be doing little harm, while the British gunnery seemed to be improving. Splashes were still erupting around his ships every few seconds, and the enemy’s line had now been reinforced by a fresh pair of ‘Invincible’ class ships. There was some comfort that at least one British ship had fallen out, but there was no chance that he would be able to finish off any damaged stragglers. Now, it was a question of survival.
At 6.50, he ordered the remains of 1st Scouting Group to turn southeast, which in the interim would preserve his options for retreat either through the Skagerrak or south to Wilhelmshaven.
15,000 yards to the North, the leading British ships of 1BCS were having difficulty in holding the range, but astern of them the fire of 3BCS was very good. They were fresh to the fight and had recently conducted gunnery practice off the north of Scotland. Even though they were firing at close to the maximum range of their 12" guns, Invincible jammed Lutzow's D-turret with a hit on the barbette-turret joint, while New Zealand’s fire sprung rivets and displaced plates near Goeben's bow and abeam A-turret. From an even longer range, the three remaining ships of 5BS re-entered the fray against the German battlecruisers, but their early ranging shots were short and Hipper's ships disappeared into the mists and the smoke of their own funnels before any hits were obtained. It is possible that a near-miss which led to minor leaks near Seydlitz's rear turret may have been from one of Barham's last shells before she checked fire.
As increasingly ragged lines of German ships sailed south or southeast, they began to slip away into the haze in the minutes before 7.00.
Aboard the Bayern, Admiral Scheer found himself studying the plotting table that he had previously regarded as an unnecessary piece of clutter at the rear of the bridge. As he did so, he felt a degree of surprise; was it only this morning that he had been thinking that?
Since then, the situation had certainly changed. Then, he had been planning a trap; now, he was trying to escape one and run for home. He wanted to be sure, or at least as sure as possible, that he wouldn’t run into the English Fleet again. In that respect, the plot was clear; the enemy had been to the north, sailing East, and although his torpedo boats had held them off, by now they must be pursuing him somewhere to the north and north-east.
To escape, he knew he had three options.
He could sail south-southwest, towards Terschelling and then return home behind the relative safety of the minefields. That would be the longest way home, but according to the plot it would mean he could sail directly away from where he thought the Grand Fleet was.
He could turn East, and try to reach Kiel through the Skaggerak, but that was clearly impractical as the British would be somewhere to the northeast and could have him silhouetted against the setting sun as he approached.
However, he believed the third approach was the safest, as it was the most direct one; to keep heading south-southeast, towards the Horns Reef. He would have to keep his speed up to cross ahead of the British, but he could guard against them surprising him by stationing his torpedo boats at the rear of the line. There was a risk the British battlecruisers might outrun him, somewhere to the East, but he considered it unlikely.
He knew they were heavily damaged, and he hoped that they wouldn’t risk another action unless closely supported by their main fleet.
At 7.02, signals went out to the ships of I and III Geschwaders to make for the Horns Reef at top speed.
So far much like the OTL battle of Jutland but a bit messier. And ATM somewhat better for the Royal Navy.
Can Scheer get the battle squadrons back with no further losses? Or will Jellicoe be able to regain and maintain contact before nightfall? Scheer had better not try any crazy manoeuvres that puts him back with the RN crossing his T
Hipper looks in a dark hole with no ladder. And unavailable to help out the battle fleet with another deathride.
Break out the popcorn.
Can Scheer get the battle squadrons back with no further losses? Or will Jellicoe be able to regain and maintain contact before nightfall? Scheer had better not try any crazy manoeuvres that puts him back with the RN crossing his T
Hipper looks in a dark hole with no ladder. And unavailable to help out the battle fleet with another deathride.
Break out the popcorn.
SsgtC
Banned
This could end badly for the RN. If they're being that over confident (the individual ships, Jelicoe has already shown that he fully understands his mission), some of the ships/men could be in for a shock when heavy shells start tearing into them
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Was this due to their fascination of torpedo effect shells in order to generate underwater hits below the main belt?
Ironically the one time those things actually worked as designed(on the USS Boise at the battle of Cape Esperance) the giant hole said shell created instantly flooded the forward magazines and prevented the ship from blowing up, she still needed months of repairs though.
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Have their been any drivers to change either navy's attitudes to night combat or battleship captains' initiative?