Thank you.
OTL, she gave good service during her long career ... and for several months after she was sunk.
Dread Nought but the Fury of the Seas
- Thread starter sts-200
- Start date
OTL, she gave good service during her long career ... and for several months after she was sunk.
Thank you.
I'm playing with one, based on my book, but only playing at this stage...
Back in a naval genre, I'd recommend C.S. Forrester's 'The Ship', if you haven't read it already.
Haven't read it since I was young, but yes, I did think of the description of every step leading up to the decisive hit on the Italian battleship's turret when I read your update.
Will do.
I'll need to consult my notes back at home to remind myself who's been hit where, so it will take a day or so ...
... don't want to go claiming I've sunk the Ark Royal for the third time.
Ramontxo
Donor
You know you should take some care when dealing with addicts... I have just bought it from Amazon.uk thanks a lot and I will enjoy it.
Order of Battle at 6.45pm
An outline Order of Battle, as at 6.45, after Scheer's turn south.
Royal Navy
Battle Cruiser Fleet
Queen Mary - SUNK
Panther – B & Q-turrets out of action, Minor engine room damage. Flooding forward.
Princess Royal – Minor flooding abeam X-turret.
Repulse – Flooded abeam B-turret. Q-turret destroyed, heavy fire aft. Boiler Room 4 out of action.
Indefatigable – Aft 4” battery burned out. Minor flooding amidships.
Invincible - Undamaged
New Zealand – It’s alright, he’s wearing it.
5BS –
Barham – B-turret out, some flooding fwd & aft. 6” stbd battery out.
Malaya – Significant flooding forward. 6” Port battery fire.
Valiant – Minor flooding forward. 6” Starboard battery heavily damaged. B-turret jammed.
1LCS – Galatea, Phaeton, Cordelia – splinter damage.
2LCS – Southampton, Birmingham, Nottingham, Dublin
3LCS – Falmouth, Yarmouth, Birkenhead, Gloucester
Units of 1st, 9th, 10th Destroyer Flotillas engaged with Hipper's torpedo boats.
Detached ships:
Lion – crippled, heading north. Adm Beatty transferring to destroyer HMS Defender.
Warspite – Significant flooding forward and aft. Fires forward and to starboard. A-turret jammed. Heading north
Royal Oak - Significant flooding forward and aft. B-turret destroyed. Y-magazine flooded. On fire aft. Heading north
Inconstant – Forwards guns destroyed, flooding forward. Remained with 1LCS until ordered to accompany Warspite and Royal Oak with Onslow, Obdurate, Petard.
Engadine – ordered to return to base when enemy sighted mid-afternoon.
Grand Fleet
All GF battleships are currently undamaged.
1CS - Cochrane, Warrior
Duke of Edinburgh – Heavy damage to port main and secondary guns. On fire aft.
2CS – Shannon, Defence, Black Prince
Minotaur - SUNK
Units of 1 & 2CS are retreating north, some engaging HSF’s torpedo boats.
4LCS – Comus, Caroline, Royalist, Chatham
Units of 4th, 11th, 12th Destroyer Flotillas engaging Scheer’s torpedo boats.
Mary Rose, Marvel hit by German light guns, boiler room damage/minor flooding.
Campania – safely in the rear.
Imperial German Navy
Scouting Force
Lutzow – Port 5.9” battery burned out. Minor flooding aft.
Derfflinger – crippled, heading East at 12 knots. 3 turrets still operational.
Seydlitz – Only has two wing turrets operational. Flooding aft. Forward 5.9” battery wrecked.
Moltke – crippled, heading south at 10 knots, detached after ‘dash to the South’. Only 2 guns operational.
Goeben – C & E-turrets out of action. Bunkers flooded amidships. Bridge destroyed, conning from aft.
Von der Tann – Flooding forward and aft. Much of Foc’sle deck destroyed. 3 boilers damaged. D-turret out.
Frankfurt, Elbing, Wiesbaden
Pillau – Heavily damaged in opening phase. One gun still in action. Heading East at 8 knots into Skaggerak.
2nd, 6th Torpedo Boat Flotillas engaging British BCF.
S50 - damaged by splinters.
G101 - SUNK – wrecked during opening phase.
9th Torpedo Boat Flotilla with Hipper’s line.
High Seas Fleet
Bayern – Flooding aft, one gun disabled in C-turret, 5.9” battery wrecked forward.
Grosser Kurfurst – A & C-turrets destroyed, D damaged. Fires amidships and in battery.
Markgraf (SUNK)
Kronprinz – Bridge wrecked.
Konig – A & D-turrets out. Major fire forward. Bridge destroyed. 5.9” battery abandoned. Flooding in port bunkers.
Kaiser, Kaiserin, Friedrich der Grosse, Konig Albert – minor splinter damage only
Other German dreadnoughts are undamaged.
Pre-dreadnoughts have not engaged, are following Scheer’s orders to head south.
IV SG – Stettin, Munchen, Fraunlob, Hamburg
Stuttgart – Damaged, heading East.
5th, 7th Torpedo Boat Flotillas have engaged Grand Fleet scouts and destroyers.
G10, V6 and V3 - SUNK
G8 flooded forward, heading south.
G9 crippled, limping south.
S16 and S20 stationary south of GF line.
Royal Navy
Battle Cruiser Fleet
Queen Mary - SUNK
Panther – B & Q-turrets out of action, Minor engine room damage. Flooding forward.
Princess Royal – Minor flooding abeam X-turret.
Repulse – Flooded abeam B-turret. Q-turret destroyed, heavy fire aft. Boiler Room 4 out of action.
Indefatigable – Aft 4” battery burned out. Minor flooding amidships.
Invincible - Undamaged
New Zealand – It’s alright, he’s wearing it.
5BS –
Barham – B-turret out, some flooding fwd & aft. 6” stbd battery out.
Malaya – Significant flooding forward. 6” Port battery fire.
Valiant – Minor flooding forward. 6” Starboard battery heavily damaged. B-turret jammed.
1LCS – Galatea, Phaeton, Cordelia – splinter damage.
2LCS – Southampton, Birmingham, Nottingham, Dublin
3LCS – Falmouth, Yarmouth, Birkenhead, Gloucester
Units of 1st, 9th, 10th Destroyer Flotillas engaged with Hipper's torpedo boats.
Detached ships:
Lion – crippled, heading north. Adm Beatty transferring to destroyer HMS Defender.
Warspite – Significant flooding forward and aft. Fires forward and to starboard. A-turret jammed. Heading north
Royal Oak - Significant flooding forward and aft. B-turret destroyed. Y-magazine flooded. On fire aft. Heading north
Inconstant – Forwards guns destroyed, flooding forward. Remained with 1LCS until ordered to accompany Warspite and Royal Oak with Onslow, Obdurate, Petard.
Engadine – ordered to return to base when enemy sighted mid-afternoon.
Grand Fleet
All GF battleships are currently undamaged.
1CS - Cochrane, Warrior
Duke of Edinburgh – Heavy damage to port main and secondary guns. On fire aft.
2CS – Shannon, Defence, Black Prince
Minotaur - SUNK
Units of 1 & 2CS are retreating north, some engaging HSF’s torpedo boats.
4LCS – Comus, Caroline, Royalist, Chatham
Units of 4th, 11th, 12th Destroyer Flotillas engaging Scheer’s torpedo boats.
Mary Rose, Marvel hit by German light guns, boiler room damage/minor flooding.
Campania – safely in the rear.
Imperial German Navy
Scouting Force
Lutzow – Port 5.9” battery burned out. Minor flooding aft.
Derfflinger – crippled, heading East at 12 knots. 3 turrets still operational.
Seydlitz – Only has two wing turrets operational. Flooding aft. Forward 5.9” battery wrecked.
Moltke – crippled, heading south at 10 knots, detached after ‘dash to the South’. Only 2 guns operational.
Goeben – C & E-turrets out of action. Bunkers flooded amidships. Bridge destroyed, conning from aft.
Von der Tann – Flooding forward and aft. Much of Foc’sle deck destroyed. 3 boilers damaged. D-turret out.
Frankfurt, Elbing, Wiesbaden
Pillau – Heavily damaged in opening phase. One gun still in action. Heading East at 8 knots into Skaggerak.
2nd, 6th Torpedo Boat Flotillas engaging British BCF.
S50 - damaged by splinters.
G101 - SUNK – wrecked during opening phase.
9th Torpedo Boat Flotilla with Hipper’s line.
High Seas Fleet
Bayern – Flooding aft, one gun disabled in C-turret, 5.9” battery wrecked forward.
Grosser Kurfurst – A & C-turrets destroyed, D damaged. Fires amidships and in battery.
Markgraf (SUNK)
Kronprinz – Bridge wrecked.
Konig – A & D-turrets out. Major fire forward. Bridge destroyed. 5.9” battery abandoned. Flooding in port bunkers.
Kaiser, Kaiserin, Friedrich der Grosse, Konig Albert – minor splinter damage only
Other German dreadnoughts are undamaged.
Pre-dreadnoughts have not engaged, are following Scheer’s orders to head south.
IV SG – Stettin, Munchen, Fraunlob, Hamburg
Stuttgart – Damaged, heading East.
5th, 7th Torpedo Boat Flotillas have engaged Grand Fleet scouts and destroyers.
G10, V6 and V3 - SUNK
G8 flooded forward, heading south.
G9 crippled, limping south.
S16 and S20 stationary south of GF line.
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SsgtC
Banned
For Panther and Repulse, is the flooding and boiler/engine room damage affecting their speed at all? I assume that for Princess Royal and Indefatigable the minor flooding is not really affecting their speed?
Best line in the whole story.
How badly is the flooding affecting her in regards to station keeping and trim?
One word: ouch. That's gonna tie up significant repair resources for months.
Holy...! I knew Hipper took a beating, but not that bad! His Scouting Force is effectively destroyed as an operational unit.
Again, ouch. Grosser Kurfurst and Konig are gonna be in the yards for weeks, if not months.
Haven't read it since I was young, but yes, I did think of the description of every step leading up to the decisive hit on the Italian battleship's turret when I read your update.
Happy reading.
Haven't read it myself for years either, although having thought of it, now I want to
.
RN post-battle damage assessment has shown that superfiring turrets are more vulnerable. Compare B&X turret damage with A&Y turret. Any follow on design should have triple gun turrets with twin superfiring or a single triple superfiring. This will minimise the loss of fire through damage to the more vulnerable turrets. Reduce the height of the superfiring turrets, even at the cost of some fire power at low elevations on the centre line. This will make them smaller targets and offer more cover from the turret adjacent. Reduction in top weight is a bonus best spent on more turret casement armour.
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Panther is incapable of more than 24 knots, which is continuing to keep the BCF's speed low (although that's not all bad, as it allowed Sturdee's two ships to catch up)
Repulse's top speed would have been affected, but as she's the fastest heavy ship in the world, it hasn't had any bearing on the battle. However, she's a lightly-built ship...
Princess Royal & Indy are only slightly affected - they can easily keep station with Panther.
Wish I could claim credit, but it was reported as said by one of her crew.
Malaya's struggling to keep up, so the line of the three remaining ships of 5BS is pretty ragged. However, for now she can still fight, so she won't be going away.
5BS is effectively now a 21-knot squadron, and probably not even that for long.
They'll either need plenty of dockyard time ... or none at all.
He's a worried man ... he's cut off from the HSF and effectively fighting 4 and two-half British battlecruisers with only the Lutzow and a limping Von der Tann.
An interesting observation, and a valid one. Those long barbettes for superfiring turrets are heavy, and don't benefit from being shielded by hull or superstructure.
The subject of armour will certainly be a hot one after the battle, and for some years to come - what is effective protection, what is worth protecting and how?
Should turrets be better armoured (as is currently planned for TTL's Hoods), or should there be more turrets, accepting that some of them may be damaged?
(and thank you in a different way, as I re-read and noticed I'd credited Royal Oak with having a D-turret - which would be quite an achievement for an RN ship).
SsgtC
Banned
I get the feeling that the USN will be feeling very validated about their decision to go to All or Nothing armor starting with the Nevada class. The decision to provide the heaviest possible armor over the most vital areas will be seen as exceptionally fortuitous. I can also see everyone else rushing to go to AoN ASAP. Probably with existing order being cancelled in favor of new designs (an exception for ships beyond a certain point in their construction).
Conversely, the USN will probably be concerned about the fact that most of their ships have Triple or Three Gun turrets. This battle has seen turret after turret burned out or disabled. For all navies, I think 4 turrets going forward will be considered an absolute minimum. A 5x2 arrangement could continue to be very popular. Otherwise, I think you'll see a move to a 4x3 arrangement. I doubt we ever see a 3 turret/9 gun ship built ITTL.
And since New Zealand was at Scapa Flow and thus doing gunnery practice regularly she should actually hit something unlike otl which means she's one scary ship. As for turret numbers if a naval treaty similar to otl's still occurs having an extra gun on less displacement is still a very valid argument for having 3 triple turrets instead of 4 twins and having 5 turrets leaves magazines too close to the boiler rooms and steam lines for comfort and takes up a massive amount of displacement to boot
Errolwi
Monthly Donor
And at the launch of the same name matured - HMNZS Aotearoa.
https://medium.com/@nzdefenceforce/...vy-ship-christened-in-south-korea-46243318eb3
Certainly AoN is looking sensible so far, or at the very least an 'armour must be thick enough' strategy. However, there might be counter-arguments around focusing on protection to buoyancy or magazines.
Numbers of turrets is going to be a very difficult one. In any limited world (whether by treaty or cost), triples look attractive as they allow shorter, lighter and therefore cheaper ships.
Then there are arguments over docks and other facilities (e.g. the DNC's magnificent 'I' and 'K' battlecruiser designs of the early 20s would not all have fitted into RN docks). The Americans had the same problems with the Panama canal.
Again, there triples look attractive, as you can (roughly) build a 3x3 ship for a bit less displacement as a 4x2.
But what's important; lots of guns that score many damaging hits, or fewer guns that can punch through and wreck almost anything they hit. Are eight 16" better than twelve 14"?
Or ... do you forget about heavy armour on turrets, and build well-armoured hulls instead (or as well?).
Don't want to give specifics away yet, but many of these ideas will be tried in a rather different post-war world.
Magnificent. Long may she sail.
(although as a Brit, I'll lament the fact that it wasn't taken beside the Clyde or the Tyne - but that's our fault, not yours).