2 + 1 > 3 + 4 ?
2 + 1 > 3 + 4 ?

In September 1921, delegates reconvened with a new set of ideas, to look at the size of the fleets as they would be at the end of 1921 (with several ships now building in Japan and the USA ‘assumed’ as being complete by that time).

For reasons of both prestige and national survival, the British still wanted to maintain the largest fleet in the world, although by now they accepted that it may only be a ‘Second power, plus one’ standard; with the equivalent of one more ship than the US Navy. Thoughts of conflict with the USA had been steadily drifting out of British political and military thinking for decades, and in naval terms, Admiral Fisher’s 1905 decision to strip the North American station of virtually all its ships had been the culmination of that process.
By 1921, for cultural, political, historic, but most importantly financial and industrial reasons, America was officially ‘not a threat’.
The British therefore wanted to ensure a ‘Third plus Forth’ power standard, under which the Royal Navy would be superior to the largest two Navies after that of the USA.

The Americans had discretely pointed out that the British had not included the 17,800-ton ‘large cruiser’ Courageous in the capital ship total, and so she had been added. Although not immediately helpful, the change later paved the way for progress in an agreement over cruisers.

Subject to a treaty being ratified, the British agreed to scrap their old 12” dreadnoughts and I-class battlecruisers, which would bring RN tonnage down to 840,000.
For political and nationalistic reasons, the US government could not accept a total less than that of Britain, however there was also a desire to limit the US Navy to no more than 700,000 tons, as that would allow the delay or cancellation of most of the ships that had already been authorised, thereby saving money.
By now, there was a grudging acceptance among the American leadership that one or two ‘South Dakotas’ or ‘Lexingtons’ would have to be completed. If nothing else, the US Navy should have a few ships as large as the latest British vessels. The South Dakota, Indiana, Lexington and Constellation were well advanced in their construction, and the most advanced, USS Indiana, was afloat with her armour mounted, her engines fitted and her secondary guns in place. She could be ready in the spring of 1922, and in terms of construction, most of the money had already been spent.

The next idea to close the gap between what the Americans wanted and what the British already had, was to allocate a nominal ‘Treaty Tonnage’ to some of the older, smaller ships, rather than using their true displacement. As these were most numerous in the Royal Navy, it would offset British concerns over the relative worth of their smaller ships, while shrinking their Treaty Tonnage by more than anyone else’s.
After a deal of haggling over the exact terms, this idea paved the way for an agreement between parties. A ‘light battleship’ would be one that displaced less than 23,000 tons Standard, but would benefit from an exemption that used only a fixed 14,000 tons of a nation’s allocated capital ship tonnage. With this rule applied, the RN total fell to 775,000 tons.

A further political fudge would bring this total down even further, suiting American interests and providing a sweetener for the British, who wanted the RN's role in protecting the sea lanes to far-flung outposts of Empire to be recognised. Although they would not be regarded as a separate party to the Treaty, the Australians would be allowed a token tonnage limit to allow them to retain their flagship, the Lion-class battlecruiser HMAS Australia. However, unlike for instance the Ottoman Empire or Brazil, the RAN would still be bound by the terms of the Treaty. Any lingering American and Japanese concerns over this ‘additional British fleet’ were offset by the relatively small allocation of tonnage; the RAN would only be permitted one ship of 28,000 tons, a limit that was clearly insufficient for the most modern and powerful capital ships.
In a rather tongue-in-cheek move, the British delegation attempted to push their Imperial exemptions further with HMS New Zealand and HMS Canada, but this was firmly vetoed. It was worth a try, but the British didn’t press the matter, as unlike HMAS Australia, neither ship had ever been commissioned into a Dominion Navy.

Overall, the political compromises allowed a win for everyone. With the ‘Australian exemption’ and the ‘Light Battleship exemption’, the British total stood at 749,000 tons, meaning a Treaty Limit of 750,000 tons was possible. The Americans could accept the same number, as it still meant that many of the costly 1916 ships would have to be either cancelled or deferred, and there was no question of a 1920 Programme being necessary.
With Australia’s additional 28,000 tons, the British Empire could still have the largest fleet, but American politicians could report to their constituents that the USA would have tonnage parity with ‘Great Britain’.

Negotiators for the two major powers now knew that they were close enough for a deal to be worth doing, and that meant pressing everyone else to accept it. Allowing for the ‘light battleship’ rule, the third largest fleet was that of Japan, with 315,000 treaty tons.

Following a recalculation based on the rules of the US-defined ‘Standard Displacement’, all of France’s dreadnoughts benefitted from the Light Battleship exemption, which brought her Treaty Tonnage down to 168,000 (although part of this was in the form of five Danton-class ‘semi Dreadnoughts’). The Italian total, including the new Caracciolo and four old pre-dreadnoughts, was 157,000 tons, while the Dutch were on 109,000 tons with their four relatively modern ex-German ships.

The first problem was that the Japanese would not accept a limit that was half that of the British or Americans; they demanded 75%, although codebreaking by US Navy Intelligence had told the US government that they would settle for anything over 60% if concessions were made elsewhere. To secure their backing for the Anglo-American deal (and the Australian exemption), they were ultimately given 465,000 tons, or 62%, but the Americans insisted that this would also be subject to the non-renewal of the Anglo-Japanese alliance in 1922.

Having refused to be part of any treaty that involved Germany, the French now used the German fleet to argue for more tonnage for themselves. The Deutsche Volksflotte had eleven capital ships (most of them in various states of disrepair), but if considered under the proposed Treaty rules, these ships would amount to 165,000 tons.
If the French accepted their current level of tonnage, it meant mere equality or perhaps even inferiority to their defeated enemy. Such an idea was unthinkable in Paris, and their initial demand was for an allocation of double Germany’s total; 330,000 tons.

Even though the likelihood of the French building a 330,000-ton navy was extremely low due to the nation’s financially constrained position, such a limit would violate Britain’s red line of a ‘Third plus Fourth’ power standard.
After a certain amount of arm-twisting, and it being pointed out that four of the German ships were ‘Nassau’ class, and that the Moltke had not left harbour since 1917, the French finally agreed to a lower limit. This would be enough to allow them to build a large modern ship, or three if they scrapped the obsolete ‘Dantons’.
However, they still wanted a greater tonnage allowance than the Italians, but with no ships under construction and a large ‘semi-dreadnought’ fleet that could be replaced first, they were not in a strong negotiating position. Ultimately, the threat of financial consequences by both the British and Americans changed their mind, and the French mood was pacified by the realisation that all seven of their dreadnoughts benefitted from the ‘light battleship’ rule, whereas the Italian Caracciolo did not. France could therefore keep her seven most modern ships for slightly less Treaty Tonnage than the Italians’ six.

The Italians were ready to accept a 210,000-ton limit, which was significantly larger than their current fleet. With some encouragement from the British, the Dutch were content with 180,000 tons, and this reduced total was a factor in securing French agreement for their total to match Italy’s.
 
Treaty Excerpt
Excerpt from the Washington Naval Limitation Treaty, signed December 7th, 1921

ARTICLE IV
The total capital ship tonnage of each of the Contracting Powers shall not exceed in standard displacement, for the United States 750,000 tons; for Great Britain 750,000 tons; for France 210,000 tons; for Italy 210,000 tons; for the Netherlands 180,000 tons; for Japan 465,000 tons.
The ‘ton’ used in the present Treaty shall be understood to mean the long ton of 2,240 pounds, or 1,016 kilos.

ARTICLE V
The United States and Japan may complete the following vessels currently under construction, subject to the other Articles of the present Treaty.
The United States may complete the South Dakota, Indiana, Lexington and Constellation. On completion of said vessels, the United States shall dispose of the South Carolina, Michigan and Delaware.
Japan may complete the Tosa, Kaga, Amagi and Akagi. On completion of said vessels, Japan shall dispose of the Settsu.

ARTICLE XVII
In the event of a Contracting Power being engaged in war, such Power shall not use as a vessel of war any vessel of war which may be under construction within its jurisdiction for any other Power, or which may have been constructed within its jurisdiction for another Power and not delivered.

ARTICLE XVIII
Each of the Contracting Powers undertakes not to dispose by gift, sale or any mode of transfer, any vessel of war in such a manner that such vessel may become a vessel of war in the Navy of any foreign Power.
 
On the other hand, Germany has five incomplete hulls cluttering up the docks and slips, two Sachsens and three Mackensens. They're not world-beating ships, but the builders might be prepared to complete them 'at cost', simply to keep themselves going.
That's not likely in the short term, as completing ships is a sure-fire way of annoying the allies, but once Germany starts to find it's feet again, it may be a different story.

If it's not happening the short term by the time it might happen those hulls would be ten years old. Ten years sitting exposed in a building slip might well leave them unusable.

ARTICLE XVII
In the event of a Contracting Power being engaged in war, such Power shall not use as a vessel of war any vessel of war which may be under construction within its jurisdiction for any other Power, or which may have been constructed within its jurisdiction for another Power and not delivered.

Well that's completely unenforceable. As in OTL the Treaty dies the minute war starts.

Still a deal has been done but I don't see anything about a building holiday or limits on building in the treaty. You certainly seem to be implying that the rest of the 1916 ships will be cancelled but if the only limit is the staying under the treaty tonnage what is to stop the US from building the rest of the program while junking an equivalent tonnage of Standards. Or Britain building two N-3's in return for junking the KGV's?

As for the capacity of the fleets, Furious, Courageous, Repulse and Renown can be set against the Lex's as horrifically vulnerable glass cannons but the South Dakota and Indiana give the US a genuine advantage, yes the Rodney and Tosa's are faster but in straight slugging terms nothing can match the two premier US battleships for the moment. On the other hand a decade or two down the line when the age of the fast battleship has really dawned I suspect the SoDak's will end up in an OTL Rodney like position of being too powerful to be wasted on second line duties but too slow to be really useful in first line duties. Then the Tosa's and Rodney will look under armoured but will be much more useful just because of their speed. Still here's hoping something like the P-3 design eventually gets built. Reading about that sailing the waves would be amazing.
 
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Deleted member 94680

The next idea to close the gap between what the Americans wanted and what the British already had, was to allocate a nominal ‘Treaty Tonnage’ to some of the older, smaller ships, rather than using their true displacement. As these were most numerous in the Royal Navy, it would offset British concerns over the relative worth of their smaller ships, while shrinking their Treaty Tonnage by more than anyone else’s.
After a deal of haggling over the exact terms, this idea paved the way for an agreement between parties. A ‘light battleship’ would be one that displaced less than 23,000 tons Standard, but would benefit from an exemption that used only a fixed 14,000 tons of a nation’s allocated capital ship tonnage. With this rule applied, the RN total fell to 775,000 tons.

Two interesting ideas for an alt-treaty. Are they purely your invention, or were they discussed and rejected OTL?

To secure their backing for the Anglo-American deal (and the Australian exemption), they were ultimately given 465,000 tons, or 62%, but the Americans insisted that this would also be subject to the non-renewal of the Anglo-Japanese alliance in 1922.

I take this is phrasing and refers to discussions and negotiations, rather than America dictating British foreign policy?
 

Deleted member 94680

You certainly seem to be implying that the rest of the 1916 ships will be cancelled but if the only limit is the staying under the treaty tonnage what is to stop the US from building the rest of the program while junking an equivalent tonnage of Standards. Or Britain building two N-3's in return for junking the KGV's?

Congress and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, respectively.
 
Interesting, I take it the rest of the treaty defines a "treaty battleship", presumably around 40,000 tons and 16" guns, so the specifically named ships ( South Dakota, Tosa, Amagi, etc) are authorized exceptions? Also, it looks like some kind of building holiday is there since only certain ships are allowed to be built. My guess is five years and then a ship per year or every other year.
 
Anything the Turks do, Greece will want to counter (and vice-versa).

True with the caveat that the Greeks were enamored with naval aviation from very early on and put a far bigger emphasis on their light fleet. Greece is going to be effectively a cruiser/destroyer navy backed up by as strong aviation as they can and a small core of battleships.
 
Interesting, I take it the rest of the treaty defines a "treaty battleship", presumably around 40,000 tons and 16" guns, so the specifically named ships ( South Dakota, Tosa, Amagi, etc) are authorized exceptions? Also, it looks like some kind of building holiday is there since only certain ships are allowed to be built. My guess is five years and then a ship per year or every other year.
Still a deal has been done but I don't see anything about a building holiday or limits on building in the treaty. You certainly seem to be implying that the rest of the 1916 ships will be cancelled but if the only limit is the staying under the treaty tonnage what is to stop the US from building the rest of the program while junking an equivalent tonnage of Standards. Or Britain building two N-3's in return for junking the KGV's?

As for the capacity of the fleets, Furious, Courageous, Repulse and Renown can be set against the Lex's as horrifically vulnerable glass cannons but the South Dakota and Indiana give the US a genuine advantage, yes the Rodney and Tosa's are faster but in straight slugging terms nothing can match the two premier US battleships for the moment. On the other hand a decade or two down the line when the age of the fast battleship has really dawned I suspect the SoDak's will end up in an OTL Rodney like position of being too powerful to be wasted on second line duties but too slow to be really useful in first line duties. Then the Tosa's and Rodney will look under armoured but will be much more useful just because of their speed. Still here's hoping something like the P-3 design eventually gets built. Reading about that sailing the waves would be amazing.

I'd hope that Trevayne is right. But if the great powers aren't as bankrupt there may be some shenanigans to be played with scrap and rebuild.

I can just see the German (and other nations') designers raring to go on the best "light battleship / battlecruiser" they can build on 23,000 tonnes. and how many lies can be told about the displacement.

Unless the other nations go all out for the biggest ships (not very likely as they will chew up too much tonnage) then I think the "treaty" battleship / battlecruiser design will end up being an art of calibre vs guns vs armour vs speed. Most of the British designs are too heavy and Britain needs number which is why I think the E-2 and R-3 designs might be dusted off. Hopefully more E-2 than R-3.

Nothing yet about aircraft carriers or incomplete hulls?
 
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The other interesting driver is going to be the schedule for replacement - the "light battleships" might get a reprieve against some of their slightly newer but larger brethren. So the Orions might be retained for the UK over the Iron Duke and KGV as they are only rated at 14000 tonnes. In second line postings they are probably fine but the Iron Dukes and KGV are treaty tonnage wasters and would be better replaced with a new treaty "light battleship/cruiser" or merged into a bigger vessel tonnage.
 
My problem with this is the RN has 4 'post-Stavanger' type ships, the 3 Admirals and Furious, while the US has 4 Colorados, 2 SoDaks, and 2 Lexingtons, while the IJN has 2 Nagatos, 2 Tosa's, and 2 Amagi's. I don't think retaining 13.5" ships is worth that sacrifice
 
I'd hope that Trevayne is right. But if the great powers aren't as bankrupt there may be some shenanigans to be played with scrap and rebuild.

I can just see the German (and other nations') designers raring to go on the best "light battleship / battlecruiser" they can build on 23,000 tonnes. and how many lies can be told about the displacement.

Unless the other nations go all out for the biggest ships (not very likely as they will chew up too much tonnage) then I think the "treaty" battleship / battlecruiser design will end up being an art of calibre vs guns vs armour vs speed. Most of the British designs are too heavy and Britain needs number which is why I think the E-2 and R-3 designs might be dusted off. Hopefully more E-2 than R-3.

Nothing yet about aircraft carriers or incomplete hulls?
The other interesting driver is going to be the schedule for replacement - the "light battleships" might get a reprieve against some of their slightly newer but larger brethren. So the Orions might be retained for the UK over the Iron Duke and KGV as they are only rated at 14000 tonnes. In second line postings they are probably fine but the Iron Dukes and KGV are treaty tonnage wasters and would be better replaced with a new treaty "light battleship/cruiser" or merged into a bigger vessel tonnage.

Good points. One additional thing that definitely needs clarification is whether the light battleship category applies to only existing ships or will it be a category going forward? Personally I think it would be very interesting thinking about what kind of ships would fit in that category in the future. At the same time, the easiest way to handle it means it would only apply to ships in existence in 1920.

Thinking about it, I wonder what could be done with 23,000 tons? Maybe something like an enlarged OTL panzerschiffe or a slightly smaller Dunkerque, with say 6 x 14" in two triple turrets, either both forward or one forward and one aft? Twin 15" or 16" might be another possibility .

Edit: One more thought about light battleships. Assuming that new ones can be built in the future and there is a construction limit of one treaty capital ship per year, they might consider altering it to one treaty battleship or two light battleships per year. That way countries that want to maintain a fleet in excess of 20 battleships can keep their maximum age under 20 years. Normally, if say the British wanted a fleet of 15 treaty battleships and 10 light battleships (600,000 tons and 140,000 tons) they could replace each ship every 25 years at one ship per year. Allowing either one treaty or two light battleships each year would bring the maximum age down to 20 years.
 
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My problem with this is the RN has 4 'post-Stavanger' type ships, the 3 Admirals and Furious, while the US has 4 Colorados, 2 SoDaks, and 2 Lexingtons, while the IJN has 2 Nagatos, 2 Tosa's, and 2 Amagi's. I don't think retaining 13.5" ships is worth that sacrifice

They might be able to deal with that by allowing the British to build two new 40,000 ton battleships in say 3 years, as long as they have scrapped the appropriate amount of tonnage. These would be analogous to the OTL Nelrods. The main reason for the delay is the design time, since the existing designs (G3 & N3) are too big. That would give the British six post Stavanger ships and in the meantime they will still have the biggest battlefleet in numbers.
 
The fudging helps the British keep its older ships for now, but replacing them for a new ship will take 3 old ships scrapped instead of 2 to remain in treaty limits. And since the RN is too big for its economy right now that’s a benefit in most cases

I don’t know enough about battle ships, but the British have had issues historically with commerce raiders like the graft spee, light cruisers struggle against them. Battleships and big battlecruisers (that are rapidly morphing into fast battleship) are overkill.

Would there be room within the treaty light battle ship (which right now are basically useless slow battlecruisers) for a specialised (actually cheaper) fast(enough) long range commerce protection ships to hunt the auxiliary cruisers, and heavy cruisers, reusing lighter armour and the best of the old guns. Britain won’t need many. But they’d be cheap when it comes to treaty tonnage. Making use out of armour and guns that arnt useful where they are, but can be recycled on 3 useful ships getting more use than one single 40k battleship.

they’d be great leading cruiser squadrons or as a heavy escort for big convoys, deploying 3 light battleships after a big commerce raider will be better than taking away needed fast battleships.. and lets you keep limits on Germany’s battlefleet without keeping a useless slow battleship. Using the old smaller calibre guns keeps these light battleships From being thought of as full capital ships in the line, and will in future make a good carrier escort. They won’t need 15” guns to do the job. (They’d make good raiders themselves)



Also. Did Britain get the concession over the tonnage taken up by the requirement for long range ships with large stores. As this tonnage isn’t needed by other nations and doesn’t add to fighting ability. As in they use dry weight and not with oil onboard
 
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Good points. One additional thing that definitely needs clarification is whether the light battleship category applies to only existing ships or will it be a category going forward? Personally I think it would be very interesting thinking about what kind of ships would fit in that category in the future. At the same time, the easiest way to handle it means it would only apply to ships in existence in 1920.

Thinking about it, I wonder what could be done with 23,000 tons? Maybe something like an enlarged OTL panzerschiffe or a slightly smaller Dunkerque, with say 6 x 14" in two triple turrets, either both forward or one forward and one aft? Twin 15" or 16" might be another possibility .

Edit: One more thought about light battleships. Assuming that new ones can be built in the future and there is a construction limit of one treaty capital ship per year, they might consider altering it to one treaty battleship or two light battleships per year. That way countries that want to maintain a fleet in excess of 20 battleships can keep their maximum age under 20 years. Normally, if say the British wanted a fleet of 15 treaty battleships and 10 light battleships (600,000 tons and 140,000 tons) they could replace each ship every 25 years at one ship per year. Allowing either one treaty or two light battleships each year would bring the maximum age down to 20 years.

Agree, that certainly gives a lot to play with, imagination is the limit. I see a possible precursor to a new breed of heavy cruiser/panzerschiffe that is both effective and flexible looking forward as carrier heavy escort or else independent combat operations, that is with hindsight of course.
 
Now for cruisers and carriers, cruisers in particular being a major sore point between the US and British.

Would there be room within the treaty light battle ship (which right now are basically useless slow battlecruisers) for a specialised (actually cheaper) fast(enough) long range commerce protection ships to hunt the auxiliary cruisers, and heavy cruisers, reusing lighter armour and the best of the old guns. Britain won’t need many. But they’d be cheap when it comes to treaty tonnage. Making use out of armour and guns that arnt useful where they are, but can be recycled on 3 useful ships getting more use than one single 40k battleship.

they’d be great leading cruiser squadrons or as a heavy escort for big convoys, deploying 3 light battleships after a big commerce raider will be better than taking away needed fast battleships.. and lets you keep limits on Germany’s battlefleet without keeping a useless slow battleship. Using the old smaller calibre guns keeps these light battleships From being thought of as full capital ships in the line, and will in future make a good carrier escort. They won’t need 15” guns to do the job. (They’d make good raiders themselves)
Agree, that certainly gives a lot to play with, imagination is the limit. I see a possible precursor to a new breed of heavy cruiser/panzerschiffe that is both effective and flexible looking forward as carrier heavy escort or else independent combat operations, that is with hindsight of course.
Now, this is going to make the cruiser negotiations interesting. The US will want unlimited tonnage, and probably a clause banning the above type. The British are probably going to want an overall tonnage ceiling, at least for ships above 6", but these fast light battleships will appeal to them.
 
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Now for cruisers and carriers, cruisers in particular being a major sore point between the US and British.

Yes, this is going to get interesting. I wonder if they can use a similar fudge like the light battleships? Say for example, if a treaty cruiser is defined as a maximum of 12,000 tons and 8" guns, everybody is going to build them and if cruiser tonnage is set at 300,000 tons, that is only 25 cruisers which is far less than the UK needs. However, if light cruisers are defined as 6,000 tons and 6" guns, but count as say 4 ,000 tons for treaty purposes, then the RN can get three smaller cruisers for the tonnage of one big one, so say 10 big cruisers and 45 smaller ones, 55 over all. That still may not be enough, but then if we push cruiser tonnage to say 420,000 tons of cruisers which is 35 big cruisers or say ten big and 75 small, that might be enough for the RN. The USN would probably build about 20 big cruisers ( they would want all 35, but Congress doesn't like cruisers), and the Japanese would get 70% and build it all as heavy cruisers.
 
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Now for cruisers and carriers, cruisers in particular being a major sore point between the US and British.



Now, this is going to make the cruiser negotiations interesting. The US will want unlimited tonnage, and probably a clause banning the above type. The British are probably going to want an overall tonnage ceiling, at least for ships above 6", but these fast light battleships will appeal to them.

Classification really. Anything with 9 inch and up guns or more than 12k/15k tonnes is a capital ship, they’ve labelled everyone else’s ships with 11/12 etc as a capital ship and even their own 10” armoured cruisers as second rate battleships otherwise those large cruisers of the brits fall under the unlimited cruiser allowance.


The brits might get away with allocating a bunch of cruisers to dominion navies, Australia is allowed one small capital, and thus not count towards their total, it’s much harder to treaty every country that builds and operates cruisers than it is capital ships.

If the brits have half a dozen “light battleships” they may not need heavy cruisers and go for more light cruisers, especially if they can wrangle the 7k light cruiser as treated 5k
 
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Yes, this is going to get interesting. I wonder if they can use a similar fudge like the light battleships? Say for example, if a treaty cruiser is defined as a maximum of 12,000 tons and 8" guns, everybody is going to build them and if cruiser tonnage is set at 300,000 tons, that is only 25 cruisers which is far less than UK needs. However, if light cruisers are defined as 6,000 tons and 6" guns, but count as say 4 ,000 tons for treaty purposes, then the RN can get three smaller cruisers for the tonnage of one big one, so say 10 big cruisers and 45 smaller ones, 55 over all. That still may not be enough, but then if we push cruiser tonnage to say 420,000 tons of cruisers which is 35 big cruisers or say ten big and 75 small, that might be enough for the RN. The USN would probably build about 20 big cruisers ( they would want all 35, but Congress doesn't like cruisers), and the Japanese would get 70% and build it all as heavy cruisers.
The RN should push for a 7000t cruiser, similar to the E class. Possible 12000t 8" cruisers... someone's gonna try 4x3 8" guns (looking at you Japan)
 
Agree, that certainly gives a lot to play with, imagination is the limit. I see a possible precursor to a new breed of heavy cruiser/panzerschiffe that is both effective and flexible looking forward as carrier heavy escort or else independent combat operations, that is with hindsight of course.
Have overwhelming desire to download springsharp again and start playing with 23kt light battlecruisers
 
The RN should push for a 7000t cruiser, similar to the E class. Possible 12000t 8" cruisers... someone's gonna try 4x3 8" guns (looking at you Japan)

I agree the Japanese will want 10-12 x 8" guns, but I don't know if they would want triples, at least not yet. IIRC they did not adopt triple turrets in OTL until the Yamatos. They might just go for a more honest Myoko, unless there are others with 12 guns.

I think the British would probably go for something like an Arethusa for the CL, with a bit more armor and the four twin 4" DP mounts rather than an Emerald, but we will see.
 
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