And the later SoDak's were over 40000 tons standard, but were made to fit under 35000 tons standard by messing with definitions. Do a similar amount of bending the rules, and SoDak's and Lex's will both fit under 40000 without any issues.
Dread Nought but the Fury of the Seas
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And the later SoDak's were over 40000 tons standard, but were made to fit under 35000 tons standard by messing with definitions. Do a similar amount of bending the rules, and SoDak's and Lex's will both fit under 40000 without any issues.
I could see a 40,000 ton limit agreed to especially since only the British have a vessel over that tonnage.
No, they weren’t. And the weight growth happened after the treaties had lapsed.
What you’re suggesting isn’t going to fly.
I'd say you were understating the performance of the 14"/50 and overstating the power of the 15" there (happy to be proved wrong) - I'm talking in 1921, perhaps you are thinking of the later 5/10crh shells, which would comfortably achieve that performance?
I'm not sure it's certain one way or the other - weight of broadside/rate of output is very similar, and there are many areas above the belt on a QE that are vulnerable to 14" fire, triggering a shell to burst inside.
Conversely, the American 14" Mk.4 had a lot of teething troubles, while the 15" was both reliable and accurate.
Equally, in 1921, the modern US battleships had superior fire control to their British counterparts, but the British had more experience...
It's probably going to be more down to the arrangement of the fleets, and there the British do have an advantage; slightly higher speed, and many more scouts.
(I don't mind spoiling that one by saying it isn't going to happen; there's no way the US and UK end up fighting given the conditions in the story).
I approve, but it will be interesting seeing if the interwar relationship is closer or more distant compared to OLT. I think an RN element attending a US fleet problem would have been very interesting. For that matter, I have seen books about the USN's fleet problem series of exercises in the 20s and 30s. Did the RN conduct equivalent exercises and are there any books about them?
Just considering the exchanges that could have happened in OTL (British nightfighting experience from Jutland and US carrier ops with large carriers, for just a couple of examples) I think there is a fair amount the navies could have learned from each other.
To be late to the fun, one must note that TTL both the Ottomans and the Greeks have battleships and are likely looking to build more, the Ottomans wanted 6 in OTL and had actually ordered their third ship before the start of the war, while the Greeks aside from their Lorraine clone were already negotiating with Britain a 15in battleship as well and continued the negotiations after the start of the war. Actually I would be hardly surprised if both have already placed or are about to place new orders.
This though in turn affects the Italian position. If the Italians get say 210,000 tons but have to deal with the Greeks and Ottomans having 100,000 tons each...
I'd say Greece's max is two, and the oe's max is four, but they still come close when combined
The SoDak (1918) design was 42,500tons normal, which including 1,600t oil, a ~500t margin and ~400t feedwater. Technically none of those things would be included in 'Standard' Displacement, however a few others would need to be added (such as a proper AA armament). With a bit of ingenuity and less ammunition than usual, it might be possible to wangle one under 40,000t.
However, the way the WNT worked was that existing ships were rated at the 'normal' displacements (which was very slightly unfair to the Americans and very helpful for the British).
I haven't changed that in the story.
The SoDak ('38) design ended up far over 35,000t, but that was after the escalator clause was invoked, by which time it was perfectly legal.
The North Carolinas suffered similar issues due the change in armament, but again it was legal by the time they were built.
Overall, the Americans took the treaty limits just as seriously as the British in that they genuinely tried to obey them. 'Wangling' was in terms of legal interpretation of the treaty, not outright lying.
However, note that even the KGV design never fell below 36,700t (take out pencil ... err make that 35,500t ... and we'll save some weight during construction).
The only battleships compliant with the 35000-ton limit were the Nelsons. After that, everyone was able (by luck or judgment) to take advantage of the escalator.
Could go either way, but it would have been, wouldn't it...
They certainly did, usually either in the Med or home waters.
Can't recommend a book specifically about that off the top of my head, but most books about the interwar fleet mention them.
Mind you, the exercises weren't always very realistic - some were conducted at low speed (to make them easier to control), and the estimates of damage were often laughable. IIRC on one exercise Resolution was judged hit by 7 torpedoes - which reduced her speed to 14 knots!
Given the cost and size increases post 1918 I am inclined to agree. Say a pair of modern ships plus Salamis for the Greeks and the two existing super-dreadnoughts plus 2 new units for the Ottomans. That would amount to roughly 100,000 and 140,000 tons respectively. Then you have also the Spanish who in OTL wanted no less than 4 modern ships...
Depending on the final limitations I wonder whether something like project 892 (effectively a mini Nelson at 26,500t with 6x16in) might prove popular with the smaller navies. And if the Ottomans lay down their new ships in... German yards is it in violation of the treaty of Stockholm? Arguably not, the terms had no export limitations...
No one is going to be going the Germans for battleships, if you want cutting edge ships, war winning ships you'll be buying British or American. The more recent German design is the L20 and it's antiquated compared to the SoDaks or N3's.
Italy in this scenario will probably go with an increased quality of ships and crew but always taking in consideration the limit of the budget; just to have an idea, no Caporetto alone mean no 5° National Loan to buy all the new equipment for the army due to the loss in the retreat and we are talking of slighty more of 100 million of pound at the OTL 1918 exchange at the 5% of interest, if we had the shorter war and no destruction in Veneto ITTL the italian minister of finance will have little less problematic job. The different military developement can influence the other big military expediture of the time aka the subdue of the rebels in Libya but this also depend on how was the situation during the war as the OE was neutral.
As a note, if the Leonardo Da Vinci is taken in service again, the only plan that come in my mind is to transform her in an 'hybrid battlecruiser' basically a mix of Aircraft Carrier and AA ship
Cutting edge is fine to have, but many navy need to look in their wallet and buy the ships that they can afford not what they want; if Germany (or others) made a good combination of reasonable price for modern ship even if not the most modern possible, powers like Greece and the Ottomans will go to them unless a possible hostile neighbourgh decide to go broke and buy a super-duper battleships, in that scenario they will be politically and strategically compelled to answer in kind.
But the UK and US can win on price, after all they're the ones with active battleship building industries and economies of scale. Really the only way the Germans can compete is by subsidies, which is a way to keep a viable industrial base but I suspect they have other, more important calls on the Treasury.
The Turks might be able to do something more in naval developments because they didn't heavily participate in the war but at the same time, they already have a few capital ships. Same with Greece but even more so, I'm not sure if they would be able to get new ships even if they had the tonnage to be allowed to.
OTL Greece saw a drop in GDP by roughly a half in 1921-23 and then spent about 80 million pounds resettling refugees in 1924-32. Still the finances to complete a modernized Salamis at roughly 4 million pounds were there in 1929. TTL she hasn't incurred the costs of the Asia Minor war nor does it have to take care of 1.5 million destitute refugees from scratch (note: she still has to settle smaller numbers of refugees). I;d say the finances for a significant naval program are there.
On the other hand, Germany has five incomplete hulls cluttering up the docks and slips, two Sachsens and three Mackensens. They're not world-beating ships, but the builders might be prepared to complete them 'at cost', simply to keep themselves going.
That's not likely in the short term, as completing ships is a sure-fire way of annoying the allies, but once Germany starts to find it's feet again, it may be a different story.
Anything the Turks do, Greece will want to counter (and vice-versa).