Doggerland in the North Sea?

Just for the record. If Doggerland was a piracy or raiding centre, or sported some local king who decided he could make some Roman bones, I'm pretty sure that the Romans would have gone and occupied it.

I'm just saying that under other circumstances, they wouldn't bother.
 
Doggerland, a history: Part I (draft)

From: "Ran's Home: Doggerland, A History,"
by Herr Doktor Professor Karl-Gustav von Schmetterling,
Chair of North Sea Studies, University of Heidelberg
…Doggerland became a true island sometime between 10,000 and 6,000 BC as the rising waters of the North Sea finally severed its long-standing land ties to Great Britain and to Continental Europe…Its basal Mesolithic population thus became isolated…We cannot at this time say definitely whether the first “Doggers” (forgive this barbarous Anglocism) were West Mediterranean stock or early Indo-Europeans, although my personal preference is for the latter…

…Archeological digs suggest that Doggerland went through its own sub-neolithic stage of development rather quickly…Certainly, by 4,000 BC, the island was fully Neolithic and clearly Indo-European in ethnos…Well-made fishing boats uncovered in chieftain graves on Doggerland dating back to this period illustrate the importance of fishing even at this early date…Agriculture was practiced, as evidenced by pottery shards and other crude implements… However, its utility was limited by Doggerland’s relatively poor post- glacial soil…

…By the end of the third millennium BC, Doggerland could be confidently identified as proto-Celtic…available evidence does not allow us to determine the strength of trade ties with Britain and the mainland at this time, although the very fact of those ties cannot be disputed…

…After 1800 BC or so, copper and bronze artifacts appear on Doggerland, as well as British tin and other items of probable British manufacture…Amber from the Baltic and grave goods of probable Scandinavian provenance have also been dated to roughly this period…

…After 1000 BC, Phoenician trade goods begin to appear in Doggerland digs…suggesting the island was now part of greater trade routes across Central and Northern Europe that led back to the advanced societies of the Mediterranean and the Middle East…

…the first iron tools and weapons on Doggerland have been dated back to around 500 BC…archeological evidence suggests a purely Celtic ethnos at this time…

…La Tene Gauls settled Doggerland in the fifth and fourth centuries BC, and form the dominant cultural and linguistic stratum after this time…the first evidence of Germanic (specifically proto-Frisian) settlements and trade goods in Doggerland also date back to this undoubtedly turbulent period…The first recorded mention in classical texts in fact comes in a 4th century BC Greek history that briefly mentions a war between what must be Gauls and their enemies (early Frisians?) on an island in the far north…most likely to be Doggerland...


… Greek, Phoenician, Roman, and Carthaginian trade goods are found on Doggerland in digs dating back to the 4th, 3rd, and 2nd centuries BC...The Mediterranean world was by now aware of its existence, but appeared to discount it as “a poor island of the mists lost in the northern seas,” in Herodotus’ cutting phrase…

…In the first century BC, there is strong evidence to suggest robust commercial and political contacts between Doggerland and the Belgae tribal confederation in northern Gaul…

…Julius Caesar’s conquest of Gaul in the mid-1st century BC brought the Roman world to the borders of Doggerland…Roman trade goods and money are thick on the ground in Doggerland digs of the period…

…Roman conquest of Doggerland was, like so many other Roman campaigns, quick and efficient…No more than one or two legions at most appear to have been used by Domitian to seize the island in the late first century AD…Most historians ascribe Rome’s conquest of Doggerland as part of a larger strategy of seizing defensive glacis against the wild Celtic and Germanic tribes north and east of the Empire…However, I would argue that Doggerland's growing strategic maritime import would not have escaped Domitian's attention as well...Roman Doggerland was placed , interestingly enough, under the authority of the governor of Roman Britain, most likely a testament to the relative poverty and isolation of the island in Roman times…


:)
 
Caesar Invaded Britain in a attempt to prevent the Britains from supporting a Revolt in Brittany. I would suggest that the Romans may first go to [Frisian] Dogger for a similar reason.
 
~Well shouldn't we be calling it something other than Doggerland at this point. given that background something Celtic or Frisian seems a good bet. If it stays that way is another thing...

Depends on if you intend to have the Angles, Saxons and Jutes have any lasting effect, which would seem likely. there migrations are still likely to occur for many of the same reason's as OTL. Anglia/England, West Jutland or some Frisian-Saxon hybrid. |Of course that does give new meanining and orientation for East Anglia in Britain.
 
Doggerland alternate names - Ranheim

Aurora, you read my mind! Yes, I'll be working on that aspect as well. Personally, I really like Ranheim, after the Norse sea goddess...what do people think?? Goes well with the Germanic/Scandinavian settlement likely after the fall of Rome...Clearly the sea will be supremely important to Doggerlanders...Seeking favor by naming their new home after their sea goddess might be reasonable for our hypothetical Germanic settlers, the Ranheimr (sounds good, doesn't it?)

I'm weaker on the Celtic angle - can anyone suggest good Celtic names here?
 
Aurora, you read my mind! Yes, I'll be working on that aspect as well. Personally, I really like Ranheim, after the Norse sea goddess...what do people think?? Goes well with the Germanic/Scandinavian settlement likely after the fall of Rome...Clearly the sea will be supremely important to Doggerlanders...Seeking favor by naming their new home after their sea goddess might be reasonable for our hypothetical Germanic settlers, the Ranheimr (sounds good, doesn't it?)

I'm weaker on the Celtic angle - can anyone suggest good Celtic names here?


Well in Roman times the north Sea was known simply as the Mare Frisia. they were seafaring around the entire basin and they undoubtably would have fled there during many of the rebellions against the Romans. ~Alternatively it would likely have become a haven for them during the Germanic migrations as well....

If you give the Anglo-Saxons eventual supremacy for a tme it will have an Anglo Frisian name or simply the name of one of the Angle kingdoms is here instead....Deira perhaps, or it becomes East Anglia, East Anglia is Middle Anglia or Mercia or perhaps South Anglia and Mercia ends up as West Anglia.

To me though Frisia or Frisland/Friesland seems the most likely name. Mind you I haven't really looked at the Brythonic.
 
heres a thought, Frysfarne. Frisian retreat. becoming a refuge for both Frisians, Iceni, and Trinovantes and other Brythonic tribes. Add some colour by having the Parisii of Britannia settle here say the western quarter to third of the island, rather than in lands adjacent to the Brigantes following the rebellions in Gaul. So you end up with say Parisii and West Frisians for lack of a better name and refugees of Britons following Boudicca's rebellion not to mention those that would follow from the coastal Frisian littoral as well folowing the periodic rebellions there, or those that simply wanted to escape the onerous tax burdon imposed by the Romans.

These would all occur before the Germanic migrations of the Angles, Saxons and Jutes and the later Vikings.
 
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Stephen

Banned
One or two legions in Doggerland are one or two legions not in Britain or Gaul. This is imperial overreach.
 
How about some variation of Kimberland, Kimberney?
Jutland was once called the Cimbrian pensinsula and originally inhabited by a Celtic/Germanic tribe (there is some evidence they were a mixed tribe of Celts & Germans!) called the Cimbri - so originally Doggerland would be the Insula Cimbrica.

Or possible after the Ambrones who lived in Frisia.

Or you could go with ambiguity and use a name derived from *mori/mari an indoeuropean word meaning "sea" and often applied to saltmarshes on the lowlands coast. Morland perhaps?
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
Aleks, love the timeline so far !

How did DOGGER bank get its name ? It had to come from somewhere

Doggerland, sounds a bit odd, but akin to Jutland maybe it would be Dogland ?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
From an albeit modern Welsh as Im not up to speed on old Welsh / Brythonic a couple of possible names are Ynys Niwlog - Foggy Island or Ynys Gwastatir - Flatland Island.

@ Grey Wolf, Doggerbank gets its name from the Dutch 'dogge', a word for fishing boat.
 
Awesome names

Thanks, all, for the terrific name suggestions. I will incorporate to the best of my ability. Fwiw, I didn't mean to suggest that Rome would garrison Doggerland with one or two legions, only use them for the initial conquest. Afterwards, the legions would return to Britain, Gaul, or the Rhine frontier...leaving a small force behind - a century or two, with local auxiliaries?
 
How about some variation of Kimberland, Kimberney?
Jutland was once called the Cimbrian pensinsula and originally inhabited by a Celtic/Germanic tribe (there is some evidence they were a mixed tribe of Celts & Germans!) called the Cimbri - so originally Doggerland would be the Insula Cimbrica.

Or possible after the Ambrones who lived in Frisia.

Or you could go with ambiguity and use a name derived from *mori/mari an indoeuropean word meaning "sea" and often applied to saltmarshes on the lowlands coast. Morland perhaps?

On that note then... since the Britons also referred to the North Sea as Morimusa... Morifarne.

mind you Cimbria or Ambronia have nice rings to them as well.
 
How about some variation of Kimberland, Kimberney?
Jutland was once called the Cimbrian pensinsula and originally inhabited by a Celtic/Germanic tribe (there is some evidence they were a mixed tribe of Celts & Germans!) called the Cimbri - so originally Doggerland would be the Insula Cimbrica.

Thats the angle I went down. Simbraland- I took the C to be one of those that sounds like an S.
 
We take a lot of place names from the Latinised form of the tribal names. Britannia from the Britoni, Francia from the Franci, Germania from the Germani, etc. Surely sticking too closely to the Celtic here is a deception?
 
Doggerland Roman Garrison

Imperial Rome in its heyday did not use auxiliary forces in their home area; the danger of subversion / divided loyalties was too great. So my guess at the 'peace time' garrison (really dependant on Doggerland's population size and reputation for fierceness) is

1 or 2 Legionary cohorts rotated from the legion based at Eboracum (York).
1 or 2 Auxiliary cohorts, probably from North Africa or the Near East.
1 cavalry Ala.

The Legionary cohorts from Eburacum would be replaced by two additional Auxiliary cohorts, again not recruited from Britain.

So that's 3000 or so additional men from the Mediteranean littoral who'l visit Britannia's cold shores....

Meanwhile a Doggerland-recruited auxiliary cohort serves on Corsica, one of whose members fathers a child in a drunken night of passion with a peasant girl, whose remote descendant becomes..............?
 

Stephen

Banned
Just for the record. If Doggerland was a piracy or raiding centre, or sported some local king who decided he could make some Roman bones, I'm pretty sure that the Romans would have gone and occupied it.

I'm just saying that under other circumstances, they wouldn't bother.

Just like Ireland, Scotland, and east Germany. Oh wait.
 
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