Doggerland in the North Sea?
- Thread starter Aleks
- Start date
If you want recognisable timelines then don't pick a POD in deep time.
By adding a whole country you very drastically change the topology of space-time.
Even if there is a "River of Time," it can't flow uphill.
By adding a whole country you very drastically change the topology of space-time.
Even if there is a "River of Time," it can't flow uphill.
River of Time
Hey all,
First, thank you for the many really interesting posts submitted. It was a rough start but after the butterfly brigade flapped away, we finally started getting some good speculative thinking.
I really liked the posts about the East Anglia analogue and the Frisian/Netherlands influence on Doggerland. The more I think about it, the more it seems that Doggerland is more likely to end up in the Germanic/Scandinavian sphere, at least culturally and linguistically, but with strong ties to both Britain and Holland. What would their flag look like? Btw, this is a cool Faroe stamp with Ran the Norse Sea Goddess... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Faroe_stamp_478_ran.jpg
I would add that Rome could certainly conquer Doggerland, which is far smaller and much more homogenous that Germania...and they would want to, given their presence in Britain and the need to protect British and Gaulish coasts. Also, a Roman presence in Doggerland would make it easier for Rome to contact Scandinavia and explore the Baltic...just a thought. Yes, I know it would lead to changes, I get it.
But it won't wipe away the Balts, the Slavs, and the Norse, so don't overstate it. They'll just adapt, like everyone else.
As far as the last post, I would say that the River of Time flows around obstacles...Doggerland is small enough that the topology of space time (cool phrase!) will not be affected enough to make the RoT have to flow uphill...it will just flow around it, like so many other posters here have suggested.
Finally, I gotta say it - butterflies don't cause hurricanes in the real world, huge weather systems, the water cycle, and the rotation of the earth do. Can we please give this much abused and way-outworn cliche a rest? It clearly has had a deleterious effect on AH speculation, judging just from this one thread...it's nuts to say that the settlement of Australia will be totally different because of Doggerland! That's where buttefly worship leads you...
Hey all,
First, thank you for the many really interesting posts submitted. It was a rough start but after the butterfly brigade flapped away, we finally started getting some good speculative thinking.
I really liked the posts about the East Anglia analogue and the Frisian/Netherlands influence on Doggerland. The more I think about it, the more it seems that Doggerland is more likely to end up in the Germanic/Scandinavian sphere, at least culturally and linguistically, but with strong ties to both Britain and Holland. What would their flag look like? Btw, this is a cool Faroe stamp with Ran the Norse Sea Goddess... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Faroe_stamp_478_ran.jpg
I would add that Rome could certainly conquer Doggerland, which is far smaller and much more homogenous that Germania...and they would want to, given their presence in Britain and the need to protect British and Gaulish coasts. Also, a Roman presence in Doggerland would make it easier for Rome to contact Scandinavia and explore the Baltic...just a thought. Yes, I know it would lead to changes, I get it.
But it won't wipe away the Balts, the Slavs, and the Norse, so don't overstate it. They'll just adapt, like everyone else.As far as the last post, I would say that the River of Time flows around obstacles...Doggerland is small enough that the topology of space time (cool phrase!) will not be affected enough to make the RoT have to flow uphill...it will just flow around it, like so many other posters here have suggested.
Finally, I gotta say it - butterflies don't cause hurricanes in the real world, huge weather systems, the water cycle, and the rotation of the earth do. Can we please give this much abused and way-outworn cliche a rest? It clearly has had a deleterious effect on AH speculation, judging just from this one thread...it's nuts to say that the settlement of Australia will be totally different because of Doggerland! That's where buttefly worship leads you...
How it is changed.
That it changes is quite a "well duh" and not really a answer worth giving.
Grey Wolf
Donor
Yeah, I think I should drop out of this thread
Wheeeee.........splop!
Best Regards
Grey Wolf
Ok Aleks, now that you've survived the initiation that the Butterfly Fundamentalists give to all newcomers why don't you start mapping out how you feel this timelime would go and we'll all step in along the way to provide constructive criticism (and unconstructive criticism too I'm afraid ).
BTW I subscribe to the Ripple Theory (TM) myself:
1) Areas further from the POD are less affected and affected later than areas closer
2) Resultant events ("ripples") produced by the POD can cancel out or reinforce other events
Rgds
Prof
why don't you start mapping out how you feel this timelime would go and we'll all step in along the way to provide constructive criticism (and unconstructive criticism too I'm afraid ).BTW I subscribe to the Ripple Theory (TM) myself:
1) Areas further from the POD are less affected and affected later than areas closer
2) Resultant events ("ripples") produced by the POD can cancel out or reinforce other events
Rgds
Prof
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Valdemar II
Banned
Okay the direct effect on Europe is quite large, Doggerland would concentrate the warm stream through the north Sea in the Easten part leading to a colder North England and a warmer Netherland, North Germany and Jutland, the result of that would be a bigger population there. That would effect the migrations, quite likely we would see early nmigrations, imagine a early Teutonic invasion-migration of Italy, it would change the entire history of Rome.
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The area of land created by Doggerland would not drastically alter weather, locally it would decrease some of the yearly rainfall totals on nearby North Sea coastlands and possibly slightly affect local temperatures too with the reduction of sea modified temperatures, but it wont affect the Jet Stream or any of the major climate drivers.
My bet's on RedSlayer
Again, let's not exaggerate effects here. Sometimes small changes peter out or lead to just other small changes that get cancelled out in the long run. I would argue that Doggerland will not change the climate sufficiently to alter history dramatically. It could foster earlier nautical prowess by people around it, which could well change things, at least in the sense of accelerating trends already under way.
I will go get some history atlases (and a butterfly net) and try to come up with something more formal in the near run.
Again, let's not exaggerate effects here. Sometimes small changes peter out or lead to just other small changes that get cancelled out in the long run. I would argue that Doggerland will not change the climate sufficiently to alter history dramatically. It could foster earlier nautical prowess by people around it, which could well change things, at least in the sense of accelerating trends already under way.
I will go get some history atlases (and a butterfly net
) and try to come up with something more formal in the near run.to my knowledge, the gulf stream hits Ireland and the southwest coast of England, then the Norwegian coast. This "doggerland" is totally out of its path. Though I do believe local weather would change. Less fierce storms and general calming of the North Sea, probably coupled with less rainfall on the mainland.
Also remember that sea levels would be higher, whether high enough to do away with settlement of the low lands / frisiaIdon't know.
Also remember that sea levels would be higher, whether high enough to do away with settlement of the low lands / frisiaIdon't know.
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Valdemar II
Banned
A warm stream goes through the English Channel, one of the primary reason Southeast England is relative warm. This stream isn't the entire gulf stream.
Getting back to the Romans, I'm still not convinced that the Romans would want to go to Doggerland. I mean apart from just generally conquering everything in sight, what's the motivation?
Doggerland is essentially a pile of glacial leftovers, so I don't think we're looking at mineral deposits. Timber can be had anywhere. The population density based on farming, hunter/gardening and fishing is reasonable, but nothing too remarkable and its not all that strategically critical...unless the Romans are planning an invasion of Norway or Denmark.
I suppose the best way to answer the question is to ask a couple of historical questions: Why did the Romans choose to invade England? And having invaded Britain, why did they stop short of Scotland and Ireland (and possibly Wales?) and choose not to follow through there? And which set of reasons would be most applicable to Doggerland?
I could see a situation where the Romans don't invade Doggerland, but where Romans might set up a trading post there. Or more likely, that the Doggerlanders start trading with an adjacent Roman post in England, leading to some degree of Romanisation (tools, artifacts, weapons, luxury goods, loan words etc.)
Doggerland is essentially a pile of glacial leftovers, so I don't think we're looking at mineral deposits. Timber can be had anywhere. The population density based on farming, hunter/gardening and fishing is reasonable, but nothing too remarkable and its not all that strategically critical...unless the Romans are planning an invasion of Norway or Denmark.
I suppose the best way to answer the question is to ask a couple of historical questions: Why did the Romans choose to invade England? And having invaded Britain, why did they stop short of Scotland and Ireland (and possibly Wales?) and choose not to follow through there? And which set of reasons would be most applicable to Doggerland?
I could see a situation where the Romans don't invade Doggerland, but where Romans might set up a trading post there. Or more likely, that the Doggerlanders start trading with an adjacent Roman post in England, leading to some degree of Romanisation (tools, artifacts, weapons, luxury goods, loan words etc.)
MrP
Banned
I recall that Scotland was poor in (easily exploited) resources, and that Ireland may have had Roman trading outposts (the extent of this is the subject of some debate, I understand), which certainly lends support to the idea that Ireland East could remain independent under similar circumstances. I suspect independence is reliant on the pacific nature of the local chieftains, but I hesitate to speculate further.
Romans
Rome did try to conquer Scotland, more than once. Scotland was too poor and mountainous to support the legions, though, and the natives were too ornery (and poor). No offense to any bravehearts here, understand.
Given the Roman proclivity for expansionism and their strong historical interest in Britain to the west and the low countries/Germania to the south, I think it's likely that Rome would try to grab Doggerland and even more likely that it would do so successfully. Doggerland would not offer mineral riches in all likelihood, but timber, good fishing, a strategic naval base, and a stepping stone to Denmark and Scandinavia would make it worth Rome's while, imho.
Rome did try to conquer Scotland, more than once. Scotland was too poor and mountainous to support the legions, though, and the natives were too ornery (and poor). No offense to any bravehearts here, understand.
Given the Roman proclivity for expansionism and their strong historical interest in Britain to the west and the low countries/Germania to the south, I think it's likely that Rome would try to grab Doggerland and even more likely that it would do so successfully. Doggerland would not offer mineral riches in all likelihood, but timber, good fishing, a strategic naval base, and a stepping stone to Denmark and Scandinavia would make it worth Rome's while, imho.
I'm sorry if I'm arguing pedantically. But often, Roman expansionism was seen as defensive in a cock eyed way. These darned barbariand would keep making trouble, so they'd send the legions out, further and further to keep the peace.
When the Romans tried to conquer Scotland, did they really want Scotland, a land of bogs and moores, and hatchet faced women with hairlips (sorry Mom), or was it a response to the fact that all those goddammed highlanders kept coming down raiding, trying to steal the women and impregnate the sheep?
Again, I think I'd like to see a better historical roman motivation than general expansionism... though I suppose in my own timeline project, I'm no better than that. But then, I've got a right to sloppy and ill considered timelines because I'm me. Other people I'm much more rigorous with.
British Doggerland?
Falastur asks a good question. Angles, Saxons, and Jutes are quite likely to stop over in D. on their way to Albion, and some would surely stay on there. If enough do so, then perhaps Doggerland would maintain a tenuous connection to East Anglia and Anglo-Saxon England in general. Then the Danes will come and conquer, and it remains to be seen if D-land will become Scandinavian or will revert to Britain after Alfred the Great (?) or William the Conqueror (more likely). Perhaps Doggerland will stay affiliated with Britain but will have a largely Scandinavian culture, like the Faroe Islands...I think the sooner or later inclusion of Doggerland in the United Kingdom is quite possible, given rising British strength in the early modern period.
Falastur asks a good question. Angles, Saxons, and Jutes are quite likely to stop over in D. on their way to Albion, and some would surely stay on there. If enough do so, then perhaps Doggerland would maintain a tenuous connection to East Anglia and Anglo-Saxon England in general. Then the Danes will come and conquer, and it remains to be seen if D-land will become Scandinavian or will revert to Britain after Alfred the Great (?) or William the Conqueror (more likely). Perhaps Doggerland will stay affiliated with Britain but will have a largely Scandinavian culture, like the Faroe Islands...I think the sooner or later inclusion of Doggerland in the United Kingdom is quite possible, given rising British strength in the early modern period.