Doggerland in the North Sea?

1- Yes nappy's ancestors lived on Corsica. so what? the entities we call "france" and "corsica" and "europe" will be something else with a totally different culture and history. its not just genes that make a person but the events that shaped their lives. what if the genes that nappy would have inherited from his greatx25 grandfather, never make it to corsica because he's part of the invasion of doggerland?

2- yes rivers empty into oceans. again, so what? you seem to be of the opinion that no matter what you change, history will end up the same.
the butterflies changing things is the whole point of atl. why bother if everything is going to end up the same?
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
Seems a little unnecessary to keep attacking the guy, rather than to put forward your own ideas of how and when Doggerland could or would have knocked history off course. Constantly stating that it would is less likely to convince than providing some detail showing how and why, and how even if it does not completely do so in one period the small effects would build up so that down the line their accumulation would completely overturn something in established history

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
I would think the first real impact comes with the Anglo-Viking kingdom of Canute &c. This land is in the middle of his dominions, and although might not play a particular role, which kingdom would it come to be associated with ? It would not be particuarly easy to defend from anywhere, tho its own independent existence is also unlikely. Quite possibly Hardrada and Tostig would use it as a staging post for the invasion of England, and even if defeated at Stamford Bridge (or analogue) it would persist as THE Danish stepping stone, make the 1086 invasion more successful and quite possibly able to drive William out of England at that date

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

There would be changes a lot earlier than that. That island would make a lot easier to navigate between Scandinavia and Britain, maybe making an useful trade route there as earlier as the Neolithic. Megalitism might jump to *Norway by way of it. So would copper and you would have an earlier adoption of metals there or any techs. Scandinavians wouldn't have to wait to the earlier classic era to get sails and as a result the ***vikings might strike earlier and Iceland get colonized sooner, so Greenland and America would be opened right at the start of the Medieval warm period. Honestly I'm just making this up as I'm typing but I think that a totally new different culture around the North Sea would considerably alter the Roman expansion in Central-Western Europe, and as a result the *Middle Ages there would be totally different.
 
Well, if founded, I think Vinland would be more important, as Europe has more people and less fish, so the Grand Banks will be more fished, and earlier. History of Doggerland will probably be a more Germanic Britain, but I'm no specialist on the early years of Europe.
 
History as space/time

I guess my disagreement with many of the comments on this thread lies in my view of history. I love history and have been reading and studying it for as long as I remember. My strong sense is that history has very strong patterns to it, patterns not easily upset. For example, a meteor striking St. Petersburg in 1908 would certainly change global history in a huge way right away...but a different tribal chief in Fiji in the 1700s would not.

In other words, I would argue that we should see historical events as having their own "gravity," like bodies in space - the bigger the event, the more historical gravity it exerts on those around them and the more it changes their trajectories. Doggerland is a large "asteroid," in this view. It will affect the trajectories of nearby entitites like the Danes, Vikings, Normans, etc., for sure. But larger entities like Britain, France, Germany, Russia, etc., will continue on a generally similar path because these "historical planets" have far greater historical inertia than my little Doggerland island. Think of this as relativistic AH.

Sorry if my approach seems unrealistic to many of you, but I respectfully submit that the butterfly effect has been given way too much prominence here, and that a historical gravity approach might be more productive in AH speculation.
 

Susano

Banned
Okay let sgo with it. Theres Doggerland in the middle of the North Sea. Obviously, somebody will settle it. Now, Im not versed enough in European prehistroy to say who. But this settlement movement will of course already produce the first changes, as the people who will settle it will IOTL have moved elsewhere, or, lacking hunting/farming grounds, not even existed IOTL. The movement of a people might also clear space for another people to move in, so, even more change.

Then, either Doggerland keeps an autochtnonous culture, or is (perhaps even repeatedly) invaded by other peoples. If we assume that roughly the same cultural-lingual groups as IOTL arise, the big candidates for that are the Celts and the Germanics, of course. So, Celtic Doggerland, Germanic Dogegrland, or own Doggerland. And before we can trace any timeline further, wed need to decide for one, so to say...
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
There would be changes a lot earlier than that. That island would make a lot easier to navigate between Scandinavia and Britain, maybe making an useful trade route there as earlier as the Neolithic. Megalitism might jump to *Norway by way of it. So would copper and you would have an earlier adoption of metals there or any techs. Scandinavians wouldn't have to wait to the earlier classic era to get sails and as a result the ***vikings might strike earlier and Iceland get colonized sooner, so Greenland and America would be opened right at the start of the Medieval warm period. Honestly I'm just making this up as I'm typing but I think that a totally new different culture around the North Sea would considerably alter the Roman expansion in Central-Western Europe, and as a result the *Middle Ages there would be totally different.

Yeah but a lot of that boils down to a bunch of people we don't know about are replaced by another bunch of people we don't know about. If you take the view of POSSIBILITIES, then one lot's gene pool is as likely as another. Sure you can say that Fnughflop doesn't get to sire the 20 kids he did in OTL and make a load of little barbars, but I say in the end so what ? Get to recorded history then play around, otherwise the whole exercise becomes meaningless

Then again, life is pretty meaningless anyway

But there's not much point for MEANINGLESS fantasy since why escape from meaningless reality by creating meaningless fiction ? Better to find something that means something and play with it there


Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
I guess my disagreement with many of the comments on this thread lies in my view of history. I love history and have been reading and studying it for as long as I remember. My strong sense is that history has very strong patterns to it, patterns not easily upset. For example, a meteor striking St. Petersburg in 1908 would certainly change global history in a huge way right away...but a different tribal chief in Fiji in the 1700s would not.

In other words, I would argue that we should see historical events as having their own "gravity," like bodies in space - the bigger the event, the more historical gravity it exerts on those around them and the more it changes their trajectories. Doggerland is a large "asteroid," in this view. It will affect the trajectories of nearby entitites like the Danes, Vikings, Normans, etc., for sure. But larger entities like Britain, France, Germany, Russia, etc., will continue on a generally similar path because these "historical planets" have far greater historical inertia than my little Doggerland island. Think of this as relativistic AH.

Sorry if my approach seems unrealistic to many of you, but I respectfully submit that the butterfly effect has been given way too much prominence here, and that a historical gravity approach might be more productive in AH speculation.

You comment makes sense, unfortunatly it's still ver close to Germany and Britain, both very important historical entities. An island like this in the Carribbean would likely have little effect, but Doggerland is in a very strategic position, so it's slight "gravity" will still effect thins nearby. It's still a good POD in my opinion, just would result in some noteable differences in europe, and then the world.
 

Susano

Banned
Sorry if my approach seems unrealistic to many of you, but I respectfully submit that the butterfly effect has been given way too much prominence here, and that a historical gravity approach might be more productive in AH speculation.
The Butterfly Effect is no magical black box. Its to me even self-explaining and obvious: Every change in history will effect other changes. Which will build up. Hell, its not even Chaos Theory - it doesnt even take small changes to alter much. Its just logical - if you new settlemand land anywhere in Europe, youll totally change the settlement pattern of all ancestors of Europe, which naturally will resultz in totally different people and totally different history, hence.

Your "gravitational theory" would only work and make sense if there were "selfcorrecting" so to say forces in history, but to the best of my knowledge there are none. There is nothing correcting or directing history - history is just the summation of causality, and causality has as basic principle teh premise that if you change something, youll also change the consequences, and the further back in the causality chain you change something, hence the bigger the change will be. Hence a different tribal chief of a mere villagesized tribe anywhere will ecentually have tremendous consequences, if you just give the changes enough time to build up.

Not to mention that "Germany", "France" and "Russia" can be no "gravitational bodies of history" in this scenario because at the time of the PoD they dont exist and wont for some millenia even IOTL.
 

MrP

Banned
Okay let sgo with it. Theres Doggerland in the middle of the North Sea. Obviously, somebody will settle it. Now, Im not versed enough in European prehistroy to say who. But this settlement movement will of course already produce the first changes, as the people who will settle it will IOTL have moved elsewhere, or, lacking hunting/farming grounds, not even existed IOTL. The movement of a people might also clear space for another people to move in, so, even more change.

Then, either Doggerland keeps an autochtnonous culture, or is (perhaps even repeatedly) invaded by other peoples. If we assume that roughly the same cultural-lingual groups as IOTL arise, the big candidates for that are the Celts and the Germanics, of course. So, Celtic Doggerland, Germanic Dogegrland, or own Doggerland. And before we can trace any timeline further, wed need to decide for one, so to say...

Hm, I'm keen on the Celts, since the mention of Caesar has me thinking of his abortive punitive expedition to Britannia IOTL.
 
I understand your thoughts regarding AH and history, but the effects multiply over time. at the time of the pod, there is no "history" yet.

Let's say that "doggerland" stays afloat after its submersion otl. short term, The neolithic peoples that lived there don't have to move. They stay, multiply, carry on their existance. Doggerland is in the middle of productive fishing grounds. The place is bound to be known and visited thousands of years ago.

As I said in an earlier post, I think this would lead to a general advancement of naval knowledge and tech (in the area - Britain, France, Scandanavia) People become more comfortable with the sea, build better boats, travel/trade more/farther. It will surely be a crossroads of the north sea. A viking analogue culture could develop much earlier. Places like iceland could be discovered and settled much sooner than otl. maybe doggers would even make it to NA. "doggers" trade in scandanavia, baltic, France, Iberia, maybe even make it to the med (maybe even corsica...;)) leaving their culture knowledge and genes behind. maybe they take slaves, tech, knowledge back with them. This changes everything.
will reply more later
 
Self-correcting history?

Quote: Your "gravitational theory" would only work and make sense if there were "self correcting" so to say forces in history, but to the best of my knowledge there are none.

The self-correcting part of my theory is really the historical inertia I proposed earlier.

Up until recently, most people did not have the ability to significantly affect people and events in other parts of the world. Changes propagated slowly, like ripples from rocks thrown into a pond. A small rock created small ripples, which could be overtaken by larger ripples from a larger and later rock, etc. In the end, the shape of the pond and the volume of the water in it, and the land in which it lay, was much more important than all the different ripples on the surface.

My argument is that Doggerland will create its own ripples in historical space/time but these ripples won't be big enough to cancel out the much larger ripples sent out by the far larger populations in continental Europe. Yes, specific individuals might not get born, given the plausibly different settlement patterns in northwest Europe due to Doggerland's presence - but the ur-friction between the Celts and the Germanics and the French and the Germans, for example, will not go away as long as both these groups are around and are neighbors. Given industrialization, mass society, colonial competition, etc., 20th century wars between France and Germany are to be expected, even with Doggerland's presence nearby. Just one example.

I guess what I wanted to see was a critique of my suggestion and not a wholesale dismissal of it based on King Butterfly...Some of the earlier posts were able to do that.
 

Susano

Banned
Hm, I'm keen on the Celts, since the mention of Caesar has me thinking of his abortive punitive expedition to Britannia IOTL.

Then, baring any speical cultural developments on Doggerland itself, I guess one can use Celtic Britain as a guide. Climatic changes (which will be quite uneffected by Doggerland) will eventually still make the Germanics (which we assume exist in this scenario - might as well not, though, of course) restless. If they have as much success as IOTL is another question, of course, but even if that means these Equivalent-Saxons will be focused on Doggerland, and hence have less focus on Great Britain, leading to more Celtic survival there. If the Celts dont simpyl repall any attacks anyways. Or if the attacks happen at all.
 

Susano

Banned
The self-correcting part of my theory is really the historical inertia I proposed earlier.

Up until recently, most people did not have the ability to significantly affect people and events in other parts of the world. Changes propagated slowly, like ripples from rocks thrown into a pond. A small rock created small ripples, which could be overtaken by larger ripples from a larger and later rock, etc. In the end, the shape of the pond and the volume of the water in it, and the land in which it lay, was much more important than all the different ripples on the surface.
Lakes always balance out. History is no lake. Lakes always balance out because there IS a preset "state of rest" - but as said, history does NOT have any predetermiend course or goal. Hence your comparision doesnt work. Because, as said, there are no self-correcting forces in history, there is no preset course of history. Only then would your theory make sense, but that isnt so.

My argument is that Doggerland will create its own ripples in historical space/time but these ripples won't be big enough to cancel out the much larger ripples sent out by the far larger populations in continental Europe.
But those ripples also change each other, another imperfectness in your comparision!

but the ur-friction between the Celts and the Germanics
Mythical nonsense.

I guess what I wanted to see was a critique of my suggestion and not a wholesale dismissal of it based on King Butterfly...Some of the earlier posts were able to do that.
Yeah, well, that was kinda impossible considering you started in your opening post with World War II already...
 
Agree to disagree

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one (attention Susano). My point is that large numbers of humans plus their specific geographic environment plus intrinsic human desires for power, wealth, meaning, autonomy, achievement, freedom, etc. do create historical inertia and their own causal trends...

I think it's a mistake to see human history as an out-of-control shopping cart, careening this way and that based on who pushed it last...I believe there is a deep underlying logic in history, one not easily changed above the superficial layer of surface changes.

For me, the attraction of AH is to think about how historical inertia might interact with changes in specific individuals, events, or even, in this case, geography. The posts that speculated about different settlement patterns and the likelihood of an earlier nautical tradition in Northern Europe were what what I was hoping to see when I posted this thread.
 
Do we allow hills ??

Unless we allow hills, we're looking at an 'East Anglia' clone...

Given the Law of Unintended Consequences, the existence of such an island will give rise to earth-works such as Offa's Dyke and the late-Roman 'Saxon Shore' stuff. It will be guarded. It may prompt a 'standing army'...

Would it high to the East or West ? I'd stick a pin in 'West', as Brittania has her back to the Atlantic, so would watch to the East and the chaos roiling....

Perhaps in 1065/1066, the Norse land in Doggerland rather than North. Harald *can't* counter, he lacks the navy. So, his men are fresh and angry when William comes ashore. Perhaps, like at Waterloo, it is a d**mn close run thing, but Willum ends the day with his head on Harald's spear. Now, the Norse have a landing zone, but are encircled by the SaxonShore forts which can all be re-supplied by sea. Harald has Willum's ships, an instant navy. The Norse must come to terms or starve...

Um, that event would surely prompt an almost Russian paranoia about the 'Threat From The East'. Edwardian castles. Henrician gun-forts. Elizabethan gun-forts. Napoleonic gun-forts. Victorian forts. Estuary forts. Railway guns. Forward listening posts.

Another wild notion: The Victorian began digging a Channel Tunnel-- Surely there'd be one to Doggerland from UK ??

In the abscence of other butterflies, WW2's UKExFor would fall back on coast under cover of Doggerland's long guns, and the airfields defended by all those forts' AAA...

Then those airfields will divide the hurt handed down by Luftwaffe. Even as staging fields, from which interceptors chop at the air attacks, maul those scattered from the main stream then retreat out of range...

You'd have to take Doggerland by aerial assault-- But, not after seeing those Belgian forts taken by surprise. Like Crete, the attack on Doggerland would be very expensive. Unlike Crete, there's that tunnel and the massive portal fortress providing fire-support, evac and re-supply. The Waffen's paratroopers fight to the last round, then hang out the white flag. Sea-lion is a non-starter while Doggerland stands, UK's Gibralter Of The North.

'Channel Runs' go different when coast guns and torpedoes can reach out and touch...

The 'inshore channel' would be a death-trap for U- and E-boats, though there may be a few high-profile sinkings per the Scapa Flow experience...

Later, of course, of course Patton would lead the main attack across the Channel. All those forts and long-guns to provide shelter and protection, fixate away from Normandy...
 

MrP

Banned
Potential claimants/masters of Doggerland throughout an ATL with Liberal Butterfly Effect interpretation:

Celts/Germans during the pre-Roman period
Romans during the Late Republic/Empire. It may be a major fleet base
Saxons post-Romans
Vikings post-Saxons
Many European powers subsequently - states based on any of the coasts adjacent to Doggerland could take control, provided their navy was strong enough.
c.17th century onwards: *English, *Dutch/Spanish, *Danes, more chaps from the Scandinavian Peninsular, French

Assuming technological and social progress very close to OTL, by the C19 the island should be firmly part of whichever of the neighbouring places has dominated it. This isn't to say it will be a carbon copy any more than Wales, dominated by England, is a facsimile of her.

This changes the whole set up of WWI, and prevents it from too closely resembling OTL's. A German Doggerland provides an excellent forward base and will also have encouraged a larger German navy from an earlier time. A British island provides more harbours for the Grand Fleet, and makes it much simpler to pen the HSF up, raising the possibility that Germany would disperse her fleet across the oceans more effectively than IOTL, stretching RN cruiser capabilities to/beyond breaking point.

A map Leej put up in one of the threads I linked to above gives an idea of the problem. See below. Note the position of the island may butterfly Germany into invading Denmark in order to acquire more strategic options.

dogg8sc.png
 
I'll give you a butterfly net to a degree, say let the Romans arise normally and do their thing. After that though and Doggerland (surely its not just me som sniggers at that?) will defiantly be making up a intrical part of the history of northern Europe. It ceases to be the butterfly effect and more just blindingly obvious direct effects.


I'd imagine its being there helps tie northern europe far closer together.
Assuming the Romans follow a similar historical pattern and eventually collapse under migrations it and the other British Isles would form part of a uber Germanic culture. A sort of super-Scandinavia I guess - not that the Scandinavians conquer the 'English', just from the get go the two remain closer.
 
Last edited:
Now, I'm half with you here - I believe that the Butterfly Effect is grossly overrated to the point of making Alternate History pointless if followed to the extent that some people here, such as our friend Susano, advocates. But there comes a point where you have to consider it. So let's look at this.

1) Napoleon's ancestors lived on the isolated Med island of Corsica. The historical effect of Doggerland on Corsica would have been very small.

Consider, if you would, the following:

Now, Bonaparte was born in 1769. Before this time, Napoleon's father worked as secretary for Pasquale Paoli, the Corsican patriot of sorts who wanted to spur Corsican independence and form an English-esque state, even an English protectorate following the Westminster system of representative democracy. He even asked George III of the UK to become Corsica's Head of State. Now, as Paoli's secretary, Bonaparte the elder was repeatedly sent abroad on various diplomatic and personal missions. Now, if we can butterfly away Charles I of England we can butterfly Paoli's life into something completely different, thus completely changing Bonaparte the elder's life. Now I'm not going to talk about nanosecond changes of timing affecting egg and sperm in intercourse, as Susano advocates, because I believe that a person's characteristics will be largely the same, as will their upbringing, moulding a person into virtually the same man or woman they always would be. But if we can have Bonaparte the elder's life change, have him through a slow cause and effect cycle move be elsewhere when he should be conceiving Napoleon, then our potential Napoleon, even if a doppelganger is born, is now older or younger than he should be. Even if the French Revolution happens as in real life, Napoleon needs to be a very particular age to be in the right place at the right time to get involved in the Revolution. This means that the Napoleonic Wars are unlikely to happen, and this has a massive effect, removing a lot of the social changes in Europe and certainly changing motivations enough to destroy the possibility of the two World Wars. You see what I mean?

Now we don't only need to consider that. We have to consider all possible ways things like that can change, from POD. I'd agree with you that for the first few centuries little will change, but let's pretend that by the year 1065 Doggerland is part of the Scandinavian circle. Let's say Harald Haadraada uses it to invade England, and he does this faster because it's closer. Let's say he lands in England just a week ahead of schedule. And let's say everything about the Battle of Stamford Bridge is reproduced. Now Harold II of England has an extra week to get back to fight William the Conqueror. Crucially, he has an extra week to raise more levies. This surely pretty much makes his army too tough for William to defeat. We've now butterflied away all the English Kings from William I, which has effectively destroyed the whole English democracy thing. By the previously-mentioned rippling effect of one thing changing other slowly over time, this has rewritten all of European politics as of a couple of centuries later, at least. Incidentally, through the ripple effect of one thing affecting another, by this POD too, Napoleon born 1769 has no chance here either. Corsica was not as isolated as you think, and I'll remind you that Bonaparte's parents liked to boast that they were more important than the Corsican nobility because they were directly descended from mainland Italian nobles.

It is certainly conceivable that his parents and ancestors would not have been affected enough to change history in that way. That clearly would not be as true for people closer in, say in Germany, the British Isles, Scandinavia. But if we're going to talk about Napoleon and Julius Caesar, yeah, I'd say they'll still show up.

Presuming we keep Caesar - and yeah, there's reasons not to but I think it's possible to get round them - the previous point indicates how we need to consider just about all European (certainly western European) history off-limits as of at least 1200.

2) All the criticism of this proposal keeps bringing up the butterfly effect like some kind of mantra. Yes, changes accumulate over time - but human history is a huge river that will find its way to the ocean regardless of rocks, trees, or other obstacles in its way. What's the point of thinking about AH if you all really believe that one change is enough to wipe away our entire history? We can't do AH in that case, since the feared butterfly effect would - as many of you see it - eliminate all we know in just a few generations. So why are people even speculating about changes pre-1900? If what you say is true, there's no point to any POD's earlier than, oh, say 1990 or so...Can't have your butterfly and eat it too.

How very Braudel-ian of you. You might have had an easier time explaining this if revisionist thought had not died out in the 1970s, I'm afraid, but I agree with your comments to an extent. Certainly I think we might as well abandon this forum if we're going to argue that every historical figure is dead from the POD onwards, and I flagrantly and deliberately ignore this idiom as often as possible. But there comes a point when you do have to accept that some things are just too far derived to be kept. For my part, I'd say that from the Viking era you should start seriously reconsidering how history would go. Certainly there won't be a WW2, or a Napoleon Bonaparte (see above).
 
Top