Discussion: Dumb AH Tropes, PODs, and Assumptions (Pre-1900)

[GameBawesome]

Alternate history is more of a thought experiment and storytelling. To theorize what could've happened had certain PODs were different. In best cases, the Alternate History Timeline tries to be logical and realistic, trying to create a timeline that could theoretically happen with specific PODs, while being an entertaining story to the audience... In other cases, the Alternate History Timeline turns absolutely crazy, and goes a completely a completely different route, that soon becomes unrealistic.

So, what are some PODs and Tropes in Alternate History, that you've seen that are, while interesting, goes into a crazy direction and soon becomes dumb? And then explain why.

Wondering what to talk about? I'll give an example template:

Trope: What if Napoleon won at Waterloo and stayed on the Throne.
Explanation: Sure, it may've been blow to the Coalition, but IMO it would require a miracle or sheer incompetence on the Coalition part, for Napoleon to maintain his rule. The Coalition was still there, and Napoleon would have to win another battle, and then another, and then another...

Rules:
1. Be respectful to each other.
2. No racism or sexism in this thread. Break it, and I'll contact the mods.
3. No shitposting.

 

[Lalli]

Trope: What if Napoleon won at Waterloo and stayed on the Throne.
Explanation: Sure, it may've been blow to the Coalition, but IMO it would require a miracle or sheer incompetence on the Coalition part, for Napoleon to maintain his rule. The Coalition was still there, and Napoleon would have to win another battle, and then another, and then another...

And same is many other famous battles too. CSA win Gettysburg > They win the war. Nazis win Stalingrad a They win the war. Or turn result of any famous battle around, another side is going to win whatever war.

And that Waterloo thing is about same if you think that Hitler could still win the war if he just would win Battle of Berlin. Game was already over for Napoleon on Waterloo sam way as game was over for Hitler on Berlin.

And another trope which has really begun to annoy me is that whatever apocalyptic event happens, is POD then on the past or on the future, people effectively forgot everything what has been before that apocalyptic event or at least misunderstand everything.

For example some apocalyptic happens and then people begin think that Lenin and John Lennon were same person or something really disastrous happens and people literally fall to pre-industrial age forgottig even concept of a car or even worse they might even forgot how to farm potatoes.

 

[how]

And same is many other famous battles too. CSA win Gettysburg > They win the war. Nazis win Stalingrad a They win the war. Or turn result of any famous battle around, another side is going to win whatever war.

This is true, but there are also examples of famous battles that changing the outcomes of could change the outcomes of wars and history dramatically, for instance if the Romans won at Cannae then the Second Punic War is effectively over as Hannibal would have lost essentially all of his troops and his aura of invincibility further reducing the support in Italy, it would only be a matter of time. This is important as the Romans lost an est 10% of their population in the war and sure they did learn valuable lessons but ultimately the war was a drain and net negative on Rome. Cannae was only eclipse for most casualties within a single day of fighting in the 20th Century. Hastings and Stamford bridge are two more examples. The battle of Adrianople aswell.

 

[Beatriz]

Divided Germany and Italy where some German or Italian states have colonies (e.g Prussian *Congo) or Sicilian Libya. Although if this is a no French-revolution scenario where unification is slower/non-existent I could see some interest, but nothing like OTL Kaiserreich/Italian Empire.

Frankly we don't see enough modern-colonial empires that are composed of port cities/small areas like the Ancient Greek model.

 

[SavoyTruffle]

Gonna open with a few old standbys.

Nothing ever happens in South America. Thankfully less and less prominent as of late.
CSA Victory makes the Caribbean a Confederate lake. Unless the Confederate Navy manages to outclass the Union Navy this is highly unlikely.
Spain is doomed to fail. They do have some institutional issues, but what ended up screwing Spain over was a long run of incompetent rulers from Carlos III's death to the establishment of the First Republic.

 

[ordinarylittleme]

Trope: Childbirth and infant mortality being ridiculous
Explanation: If a woman constantly miscarries or her children all die, there really should be a reason given for it, not just presented as casual fact

 

[Basileus444]

Trope: Childbirth and infant mortality being ridiculous
Explanation: If a woman constantly miscarries or her children all die, there really should be a reason given for it, not just presented as casual fact

Except by present-day first-world standards, childbirth and infant mortality rates were ridiculous. The rule of thumb for a pre-modern society is that for said society to maintain (note, maintain, not even grow) its level of population, each woman needed to have five children. The phrase 'the heir and a spare' exists for a reason. And there is the saying (I think it's Chinese but not certain) that a pregnant woman has one foot in the grave. I'm pretty sure it was Sappho who said she'd rather stand in the front line of battle three times than give birth once.

 

[Elfwine]

Except by present-day first-world standards, childbirth and infant mortality rates were ridiculous. The rule of thumb for a pre-modern society is that for said society to maintain (note, maintain, not even grow) its level of population, each woman needed to have five children. The phrase 'the heir and a spare' exists for a reason. And there is the saying (I think it's Chinese but not certain) that a pregnant woman has one foot in the grave. I'm pretty sure it was Sappho who said she'd rather stand in the front line of battle three times than give birth once.

Though it's something that can vary so much that sometimes you get families with most of their children surviving, sometimes not:

To pick three 13th century examples, data taken from here: http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/index.htm
Edward I (born 1239) had 14 children from his first marriage. Less than half reached adulthood.

Philip III (born 1245) had 5 (including one stillborn), two survived to adulthood.

Michael VIII (born 1224?) had 7, six reached adulthood.

"All" or "None." are not terribly likely, but I don't think a writer needs to give a reason for it except that it's not the norm.

Just wanted to note how weird this on an individual level.

 

[Beatriz]

Colonial empires in exile - Kaiserreich is the worst about this.
People cite OTL Taiwan, but the majority of Taiwanese are of Han descent, linguistic differences aside. A colonial empire-in-exile, say French/Italian North Africa for closeness to Europe, is overwhelmingly majority Arab, and would likely face slow-burning violent resistance.

 

[Slime_blob]

CSA Victory makes the Caribbean a Confederate lake. Unless the Confederate Navy manages to outclass the Union Navy this is highly unlikely.

Wait till Haiti trashes the confederate army

 

[SavoyTruffle]

Colonial empires in exile - Kaiserreich is the worst about this.
People cite OTL Taiwan, but the majority of Taiwanese are of Han descent, linguistic differences aside. A colonial empire-in-exile, say French/Italian North Africa for closeness to Europe, is overwhelmingly majority Arab, and would likely face slow-burning violent resistance.

The most plausible "empires in exile" would be those that shack up in their settler colonies, but even then it's not gonna be all fine and dandy.

 

[Slime_blob]

Failure of Latin America, With some PODs you can have the Americas with multiple competing powers like in Europe, where Latin American countries are prosperous

 

[kasumigenx]

China conquering the Philippines or Luzon.

 

[Silver01]

The most plausible "empires in exile" would be those that shack up in their settler colonies, but even then it's not gonna be all fine and dandy.

so the exile of king john of Portugal?

 

[Silver01]

Failure of Latin America, With some PODs you can have the Americas with multiple competing powers like in Europe, where Latin American countries are prosperous

i really want to make a timeline about this

 

[Slime_blob]

i really want to make a timeline about this

Mexico: Make Santa Anna a merchant and keep the reactionaries and radicals out. Haiti no Land reform, Bolivia Santa Cruz stays in power no Peru Bolivia Confederation instead asks for territorial compensation at Arica iirc where the nitrates are. Central America, Valle in power no Liberal congress coup, less radicalization.

All of them should have their economy and finances good will make it possible

 

[Atterdag]

Wait till Haiti trashes the confederate army

That’s a TL I want to read.

 

[Atterdag]

Spain is doomed to fail. They do have some institutional issues, but what ended up screwing Spain over was a long run of incompetent rulers from Carlos III's death to the establishment of the First Republic.

I think it’s generally underestimated how impactful the disintegration of the Spanish empire, ie latin Americas independence, was. Thus it’s easier to have a neutered Spain so you don’t have to keep in mind how a continued Spanish America impacts the world.

 

[Slime_blob]

That’s a TL I want to read.

Yes, Apparently imo the US will grab a new cotton supplier, either from Latin America which is Bolivia or ironically Haiti if they are to rebuild that, during french rule theyre like producein a million pounds of cotton, Africa which would probably be Liberia and Egypt, and others to reduce the dependence on CSA. Resulting into weakening economy.

Then wait till the poor whites and enslaved blacks unite against the CSA government

 

[SavoyTruffle]

I think it’s generally underestimated how impactful the disintegration of the Spanish empire, ie latin Americas independence, was. Thus it’s easier to have a neutered Spain so you don’t have to keep in mind how a continued Spanish America impacts the world.

Corollary to this and what @Slime_blob mentioned, it often appears that Latin American independence happens in such a way to make the United States the sole power of the New World.
At the very least, Mexico and Brazil could have become regional powers earlier than OTL.