Diesel Kriegsmarine

Thinking more and more about the British response and I think in long term HMS Vanguard will get laid down and perhaps a second. Of course odds are neither will see service by end of the war but who knows.

Michael

Probably at least some of the Lion class will actually proceed. Lion and Temeraire were laid down, but neither progressed far before being suspended. Likely they'll proceed, but are unlikely to be finished before the end of the war for the same reason, need for anti-uboat escort.
 
Leaning towards having one of the remaining pocket BBs and or one of the CAs (in this time line they have same hull and engine as pocket BBs) head out for such a raid.

Michael
They are perfect for the job. Keep the stress on the British bb while the Germans refit.
 
The Empire Strikes Back, June – July – August 1941
The Empire Strikes Back, June – July – August 1941

The Germans wished to capitalize on the success of the Operation Rheinübung but the operation also showed the importance of carrier support for future operations. In addition Grand Admiral Raeder wanted to try for maximum concentration of force. So it was decided not to send Bismarck and Scharnhorst out; that and fuel was always a consideration for the German Navy. Instead to keep the British off balance the German Heavy Cruisers would be used.

In late June Lützow the ex Deutschland was torpedoed while attempting to relocate to Norway in June. With Admiral Scheer and Admiral Hipper in refit and Prinz Eugen being repaired that left Seydlitz to carry on the role of raider. The Seydlitz departed from Norway on July 3rd. The German heavy cruiser spent the next several months in the North Atlantic, South Atlantic and Indian Ocean. Seydlitz captured or sank 12 merchant ships totaling 80,000 tons displacement. The heavy cruisers mission had been dodged by trouble as resupply ships were several times sunk by the Royal Navy. Then on August 16th Seydlitz encountered HMS Enterprise an Emerald Class light cruiser.

The Seydlitz attempted for several hours to shake the British cruiser without luck. With the British sending radio reports of her location Seydlitz captain turned and attacked. The battle between the two cruisers raged into the evening when at last Enterprise was reduced to a burning wreck and Seydlitz moved off. While landing a dozen hits with 6” guns Enterprise failed to cripple the German raider but she did something more valuable; Seydlitz location had been compromised.

On August 19th HMS Cornwall and HMS New Castle located Seydlitz. The German raider had expended 43% of her munitions during her long range duel with Enterprise. In addition while largely intact from the battle Emerald had managed to damage a fuel tank limiting Seydlitz’s range. Worse radio intercepts made clear there were other British warships in the area. Seydlitz’s captain decided to do as much damage as possible to the British and if he managed to drive of the British make for Vichy Madagascar.

Seydlitz directed her 203mm battery at the heavy cruiser Cornwall and her 128mm guns at the light cruiser New Castle. The engagement that followed lasted just over an hour. Fifteen minutes into the battle Seydlitz lost her secondary fire control and had to continue the battle with the 128mm guns firing under local control. As a result New Castle while hit repeatedly was damaged far less than she would otherwise have been. Seydlitz had a 100mm main belt and 140mm turrets while Cornwalls thickest external armor was 25mm; this extra protection served the German ship well. In the end Seydlitz was faced with the fire of two enemy cruisers. As the battle concluded Seydlitz and Cornwall were both reduced to little more than wrecks. The British heavy cruiser in a sinking condition while the Germans vitals were protected from shell fire a shell landed on the aft torpedo launchers. The resulting explosion caused the stern to fracture along the aft armored bulkhead, buckling causing major flooding and crippling Seydlitz. Now unable to maneuver the German cruiser was an easy target for New Castle which pumped 6” after 6” shell into Seydlitz.

With resistance hopeless the Seydlitz was abandoned and the scuttling charges set. On the 20th the captain of Seydlitz had the satisfaction of watching Cornwall sink do to progressive flooding from the deck of New Castle. From a prison of war camp Seydlitz’s captain commended the captains of Enterprise, Cornwall and New Castle for the battle they gave him. Later the Admiralty used the German Captains report as justifications for Victoria Crosses for the three captains.
***

By the time of Seydlitz’s destruction the Royal Navy had managed to largely sweep the seas clean of the raider support network. The Armed Merchant Cruisers or German warships would not be able to resupply in stealth at sea.

***

Both sides carefully considered the situation. In London the presence of German warships in Norway were a grave threat now and in the future. A committee was formed that summer to consider the future needs of the navy. The government was very uncomfortable at the situation having to face German ships in Norway, the Italian Fleet in the Mediterranean and keeping an eye on the Japanese fleet in the Far East. Also there were lessons to consider the current British carriers while well protected needed larger air groups.

The eventual recommendation of the Committee was to cancel the last two Implacable class that had not been laid down and instead build new larger carriers to clean designs. As considerations of larger air groups combined with projected heavier air groups combined the designs exploded in size first to 37,000 tons, then to 40,000 tons and finally over 45,000 tons. Eventually the design was frozen and four units of what would be known as the MALTA class were ordered. The capital ship threat called for new battleships. HMS Vanguard had been ordered last March one ship wasn’t sufficient. While the Admiralty favored the current design of the Lion Class the old problem of capacity to make the 16” guns and turrets remained. Eventually the solutions was to order a second Vanguard Class and decommission one of the older 15” gun battleships to provide the turrets and guns. The hope was to complete the building program by 1944.
***
In Germany the situation was also reviewed and while in some ways hopeful was not in other ways. It was known that more British Battleships were under construction while in Germany there was only Petter Strasser. Building entire new capital ships from scratch wasn’t practical. There was neither the production capacity available or the time; especially as Operation Barbarossa was underway. One possibility was to convert ships to aircraft carriers and the second was to complete captured ships in French and Dutch yards for German service.

To be continued…
 
The Town class cruiser is HMS Newcastle (one word). I was wondering when we would get to see Seydlitz in action. Very thrilling cruiser action. I believe Newcastle still had torpedo tubes at this point so she probably would've tried to use them late in this engagement. I have no disagreement with the Admiralty's construction decisions. They have a more immediate problem in regards to Operation Dervish.
 
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Oops on the naming of NEWCASTLE. The range of the battle until end stage was too far away for torpedo attacks to be useful. Its possible that Newcastle did fire a spread into Seydlitz to assure she went down.
 

thaddeus

Donor
had read a scenario(s) in book Plan Z for the capture of the French and/or Italian (!) fleet(s) while historically this was only (barely) attempted?

wonder if Germany could not have been stronger in their dealings with both short of seizing fleets? for instance the French always vowed to scuttle their fleet (and did) but would they consent to giving up their armed merchant cruisers?

Italy struggled to finish Aquila and Sparviero? they might have been tempting for a German navy operating carriers?
 
This was an interesting update. The major change being the loss of the tankers.
TTL operation Chariot is of crucial importance. Must be known/realized ti the Germans as Well. Cant wait to the next update.
 
Some observations. Hipper/Seydlitz Kreuzers were not Atlantic raiders unless they had diesels, which is mentioned in the OP, however even with that the endurance would be a month at top cruise . At lesser cruiser speed this could extend this to 2 months , however if that cruiser included a battle - back to one month endurance. Before any such raids are planned several tankers & V-ships would be prepositioned in network probably in mid Atlantic. Yes RN spent the summer months using their cruisers hunting down the older network , but it still could take them months.

More likely such sortie would not happen until bad weather months in the fall to spring window.
 
The building strategy seems a little contradictory. The Admiralty is accepting delays in carrier construction for more powerful units later, but the opposite in battleships - less powerful units, but sooner.
 
The building strategy seems a little contradictory. The Admiralty is accepting delays in carrier construction for more powerful units later, but the opposite in battleships - less powerful units, but sooner.

The Admirality wanted Lion Class BBs but industrial limits would cause impossible delay.
 
And the time taken for the Maltas to arrive won't be just as bad?

It is. The UK is in an extremely nasty position. They essentially are playing chess against one player, while having to maintain defenses against the possibility of a two other players jumping in at any time, and essentially they've made many of their moves in advance (Ordering ships; They will not receive any battleships that aren't KGV, or carriers that aren't Illustrious class any time soon [discounting American built escort carriers]).

In November, the RN will have 9 carriers available (Assuming none damaged, or in for refit at that time) and 12 battleships to spread over 3 theaters. The Germans will have up to 5 battleships and a carrier. The Italians have something like 3 battleships available. The Japanese have many of both. Obviously, the Germans are the most concern, followed by the Italians.
 
And the time taken for the Maltas to arrive won't be just as bad?


Lion class would be worse without a doubt as they required heavy armor production capacity and main gun production capacity. Vanguard only needs heavy armor. Malta class will be bad in their way.

Note I am not suggesting that Vangaurds / Maltas will be actually finished during the course of the war. Vanguard and Audacious class were not in the OTL. The escort programs and other naval projects will be a constant demand on resources.

Michael
 
Yes, this is why I said the strategy was contradictory. The Admiralty needs ships urgently. The Vanguards make sense in this respect, but larger carriers of a new design don't - they will take much longer to arrive than just continuing with the Implacable design.

If the Admiralty thinks that the new ships will be ready before the end of the war, then Vanguards and Implacables make sense. If it doesn't, then Lions and Maltas are the rational choice.

Either choice can be defended as rational, but a mixture of Maltas and Vanguards is incoherent and contradictory.
 
Vanguard can be defended because it can do the job, the current armored carriers give the impression that their airgroups are too small to face large air group carriers. Implacables are in the middle of their own design escalation here the pressure to increase is worse because of the GZ threat. For pure numbers of hulls as fast and cheep as possible there is the light fleet carrier program.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1942_Design_Light_Fleet_Carrier

Michael
 
German Developments Late 1941
Development of the Trägergruppe


With the success of Graf Zeppelin, a number of lessons were learned and needed to be acted on. Also, with Operation Barbarossa another theater of war, the frozen northern waters that Convoys now made their way to support the Soviet Union.


Despite the overall good performance of the Bf-109 it was still a converted land aircraft. Messerschmitt was ordered to produce an improved design but with resources limited the new aircraft was to use as many parts of the Bf-109 as possible to aid production. This new carrier fighter was designed Me-155. While the fuselage and DB605A engine of what would become known as the Bf-109G an all new folding wing was designed. As the Bf-109T had fixed wings the new aircraft would allow more aircraft to be accommodated on the carriers. Armament compared to the Bf-109T was radically improved. The Bf-109T had two 7.92 mm MG 17s above the engine and a 20mm cannon in each wing. The new Me-155A would have four 20mm MG 151 cannons along with two 13mm MG-131 machine guns. Proving a dramatic increase in hitting power. The new aircraft would not be ready until some time in 1942 and so Bf-109Ts continued in service for now. As a stop gap measure the Bf-109T2 was developed which had four 13mm MG-131s and two 20mm MG 151 Cannons and a more powerful engine and increased capacity for drop tanks.



The Fi-167 was a rugged aircraft with excellent range but it was also a sitting duck against any type of enemy fighter aircraft. It was decided to phase out the bi-plane. At the same time the Ju-87C was found lacking especially in terms of range. So, the Ju-87D was ordered navalized as the Ju-87E and would be ready by fall of 1941.


The training carrier Ausonia was kept busy in the Baltic working up replacements for Tr-186, getting Tr-187 ready and escorting convoys between Scandinavia and Germany.

***

Development of German Aircraft Carriers.


One key lesson learned was the utter uselessness of the 150mm casement guns on Graf Zeppelin. All of the weapons were landed and more anti-aircraft guns added instead. Other than that change the Graf Zeppelin and her sister remained the same.



The improved carrier aircraft promised great things for Graf Zeppelin and Peter Strasser but the problem was after the two carriers there was nothing else to follow them. With the war raging in Russia it was impossible to get resources for new carriers or battleships. It was decided to convert several other ships to carriers. Several liners of the Norddeutsche Lloyd were identified for conversion. The two massive liners Europa and Bremen each at 50,000 tons with steam turbines providing 135,000 shp of power were selected. The upper works were to be stripped a single hanger deck provided. Because of issues with stability and to improve torpedo defense bulges were to be fitted. No armor was to be provided and range would be 5,0000 nm at 19 knots. The great size of the ships would allow carrier groups similar to the Graf Zeppelin class.



Also selected for conversion were the two liners Gneisenau and Potsdam. Unlike the massive Europa and Bremen which were blue ribbon winning ships Gneisenau and Potsdam were not even half the size. The two other liners also were much slower at 19 knots maximum speed. The plan developed by the Kriegsmarine staff was the merchant carriers would provide cover to allow for battle groups to break out into the Atlantic and then return to basis in Norway. Being a pure sortie force and not intended for prolonged missions. A sister ship of the Gneisenau and Potsdam the Scharnhorst was trapped in Japan and would later be converted to the aircraft carrier Shin'yō and see service with the IJN.


All of the German merchant ship carrier conversions were named to avoid confusion, the names selected were of German rivers.


In addition, in France the cruiser De Grasse was selected for conversion to an aircraft carrier along with the two Dutch cruisers of the De Zeven Provincen class in the Netherlands.

For now the Kriegsmarine would have to fight with the resources it had.

To be continued…
 
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