Diesel Kriegsmarine

[PSL]

PS. IIRC, at this point in time B dienst frequently read British transmissions, not the other Way around...
how about bagging the largely defenseless force H, then go to France for repairs and a new air group for GZ?
Just a hypothetical scenario if the wrong transmission is intercepted. A year later it would be the other Way around.

Pretty sure KM was reading merchant code traffic at that time. RN radio traffic was harder to decode...although HF/DF was always possible.

 

[hipper]

PS. IIRC, at this point in time B dienst frequently read British transmissions, not the other Way around...
how about bagging the largely defenseless force H, then go to France for repairs and a new air group for GZ?
Just a hypothetical scenario if the wrong transmission is intercepted. A year later it would be the other Way around.

Naval Cypher 2 was introduced in August 1940 and not penetrated by B- Diest untill September 1941 if you look at OTL British merchant Losses due to U boats you see no spectacular increase in 1941 despite the increase in U boats on patrol Which increased from 10 to 40 during the year. At this Stage the RN had the advantage in code penetrations. It’s not untill 1942 that the Germans regain the coding advantage.

 

[Gudestein]

Naval Cypher 2 was introduced in August 1940 and not penetrated by B- Diest untill September 1941 if you look at OTL British merchant Losses due to U boats you see no spectacular increase in 1941 despite the increase in U boats on patrol Whitch increased from 10 to 40 during the year. At this Stage the RN had the advantage in code penetrations. It’s not untill 1942 that the Germans regain the coding advantage.

I stand corrected, not a likely scenario then.

 

[Tom_B]

If there are any whangs in the next installment it is likely to be a dish served cold. Either an Ar-196 or Fw-200 or U-Boat spots Revenge again and it is not too far away then in accord with Hitler's "clear superiority of firepower" dictum Bismarck, Gneisenau, Prinz Eugen and 2 destroyers are sent to attack.

 

[miketr]

Operation Rheinübung Part 4, ( June 2nd to June 8th 1941)

Once reports were in it was clear that operation had reached a turning point. Graf Zeppelin, Scharnhorst and to a lesser extent Prinz Eugen all needed dry dock time to repair their torpedo damage. Only Bismarck and Gneisenau were capable of continuing the mission. Between their own attacks and the British attacks Admiral Lütjens had acquired a healthy respect for air power and their own carrier was not only crippled but reduced to a single Gruppe of fighters. Taking stock of the situation they had achieved much, two cruisers and one battleship for certain sunk, perhaps a second a King George V had been sunk but for certain would be in yard hands for some time along with a third and a Great Era battleship had suffered badly plus two aircraft carriers. No it was time to go home.

The question was put into Brest or return to Norway? Gneisenau and Scharnhorst had been subjected to repeated air attacks during their stay in the French yards. No it would be better to return to Germany via Norway. This would have the advantage of concentrating the fleet for future operations. The decision made the combined battlegroup turned North East for the GIUK gap at cruising speed of 19 knots.

***

The British situation was worse from what they could tell the German battlegroup was intact and they had no way to force them to action. The Royal Navy had more capital ships but other than the carriers, Renown and Repulse none were fast enough. Force H withdrew back to the United Kingdom to refuel and restock the carriers.

***

On June 7th the German Battlegroup was in the Norwegian Sea and about to arrive safe back into port. Bismarck, Gneisenau and the destroyers made for Trondheim while the rest of the German squadron docked prior to heading back to Kiel for repairs.

***

In London there was relief that the Germans were no longer in the Atlantic but they could return at any time. With the destruction of Hood and the damage to King George V and Prince of Wales the Royal Navy was deeply concerned. Churchill went as far as to have discussions with the United States about purchasing one or both of the North Carolina class battleships. The United States was unwilling to part with its battleships but did agree to repair the two damaged battleships under Lend Lease. Duke of York was scheduled to enter service in a few months with Howe and Anson to follow late that year or perhaps early next. The carrier Indomitable was scheduled to arrive in early fall. Resources were diverted to accelerate the competition of the carriers and battleships despite the U – Boat threat.

***
On the German side the Tirpitz, Graf Zeppelin and Gneisenau would be in yard hands for three to six months. The new battleship Friedrich der Große would hopefully be ready in the summer but Petter Strasser wouldn’t be ready until fall or much more likely 1942. The Luftwaffe while claiming all the success of the cruise was do to their aircraft also dragged its feet on replacing losses to Graf Zeppeline air group. Even refused to release Trägergruppe 187, the crews and aircraft training for Peter Strasser. Hitler’s own attention soon returned to planning Operation Barbarossa.

***

 

[Tom_B]

By returning to Norway instead of Brittany you prevent the KM fleet from becoming Bomber Command's number 1 priority. And how long is Scharnhorst going to be out of action (it appeared from the battle descriptions that she was more badly hurt than her sister)? You might want to think about either PQ 2 or PQ 3

 

[miketr]

In terms of repair time I need to decide if bomber command manages to hit any of the ships in yard hands. Graf Zeppelin will be ready soonest at 3 months, the Tirpitz a month later at 4 months and then Scharnhorst at 6 months.

Once they refuel and rearm Bismarck she could head out again at any time.

The Germans might want to want to try to send Graf Zeppelin out with Friedrich der Grosse in Ausgust / September. Assuming the Luftwaffe releases the aircraft that is.

 

[Tom_B]

Furious will be assigned to Force H instead of raiding Kirkenes and Petsamo. Eagle will be assigned to Home Fleet instead of the South Atlantic.

 

[Gudestein]

What were the convoy losses (direct and indirect)from this joint mission? IIRC, dispersed convoys suffered quite heavily IOTL?

 

[docfl]

In terms of repair time I need to decide if bomber command manages to hit any of the ships in yard hands. Graf Zeppelin will be ready soonest at 3 months, the Tirpitz a month later at 4 months and then Scharnhorst at 6 months.

Once they refuel and rearm Bismarck she could head out again at any time.

The Germans might want to want to try to send Graf Zeppelin out with Friedrich der Grosse in Ausgust / September. Assuming the Luftwaffe releases the aircraft that is.

With the success of the last raid,maybe Hitler tells Goring to release the aircraft or just let the navy have their own aircraft.

 

[Gudestein]

With the success of the last raid,maybe Hitler tells Goring to release the aircraft or just let the navy have their own aircraft.

IIRC Goering had lost a lot of prestige at this point. Eg Dunkirk, Bob, even Crete that was considered too costly a win by Hitler.
Cooperating now would be good survival instincts. As he indeed showed later by making naval strike dedicated squadrons against the arctic convoys.

 

[weasel_airlift]

In terms of repair time I need to decide if bomber command manages to hit any of the ships in yard hands. Graf Zeppelin will be ready soonest at 3 months, the Tirpitz a month later at 4 months and then Scharnhorst at 6 months.

Once they refuel and rearm Bismarck she could head out again at any time.

The Germans might want to want to try to send Graf Zeppelin out with Friedrich der Grosse in Ausgust / September. Assuming the Luftwaffe releases the aircraft that is.

So, if they plan a sortie in October...The Kriegsmarine would have
Bismarck
Tirpitz
Friedrich der Grosse
Gneisenau
Graf Zeppelin

The RN can have
Duke of York
Repulse
Renown
Rodney (Maybe; her refit may be delayed ITTL due to capital ship shortages)
Nelson
Barham
Valiant (Could use some time in the yards)
Malaya
Revenge (Possibly; she's going to spend some time in the yards, and may not be done)
Ramillies
Royal Sovereign


Obviously, the RN must also stock the Med. I would see Repulse and Renown along with Ramillies and Royal Sovereign as most likely candidates. Hood's quick death will discourage the use of Repulse and Renown near the Germans, and the R class are too slow. Revenge may not be available yet, she has a decent amount of damage to patch up.

Thus, the Queens would be brought back to Scapa as Home Fleet. Rodney may have her June refit delayed due to the severe shortage of ships. The RN will also have no shortage of carriers. Ark Royal and Victorious need repairs, and may not be ready in time. Regardless, not less than two carriers being part of the Home Fleet.

 

[Gudestein]

So, if they plan a sortie in October...The Kriegsmarine would have
Bismarck
Tirpitz
Friedrich der Grosse
Gneisenau
Graf Zeppelin

The RN can have
Duke of York
Repulse
Renown
Rodney (Maybe; her refit may be delayed ITTL due to capital ship shortages)
Nelson
Barham
Valiant (Could use some time in the yards)
Malaya
Revenge (Possibly; she's going to spend some time in the yards, and may not be done)
Ramillies
Royal Sovereign


Obviously, the RN must also stock the Med. I would see Repulse and Renown along with Ramillies and Royal Sovereign as most likely candidates. Hood's quick death will discourage the use of Repulse and Renown near the Germans, and the R class are too slow. Revenge may not be available yet, she has a decent amount of damage to patch up.

Thus, the Queens would be brought back to Scapa as Home Fleet. Rodney may have her June refit delayed due to the severe shortage of ships. The RN will also have no shortage of carriers. Ark Royal and Victorious need repairs, and may not be ready in time. Regardless, not less than two carriers being part of the Home Fleet.

Problem is that the queens are too slow as well. Couple that with a period were Germany reads British codes and we are in for a quite difficult autumn.

 

[weasel_airlift]

Problem is that the queens are too slow as well. Couple that with a period were Germany reads British codes and we are in for a quite difficult autumn.

There is that. The carriers will probably be Furious and Formidable. Eagle would be transferred to the Med, and another when available. Eagle won't be used in the Atlantic, she's too slow. She can't get away if things go pear shaped.

 

[Gudestein]

There is that. The carriers will probably be Furious and Formidable. Eagle would be transferred to the Med, and another when available. Eagle won't be used in the Atlantic, she's too slow. She can't get away if things go pear shaped.

I for one cant wait to hear what Miketr is going to provide. Its not like the RN is toothless, but they are outpaced and cannot escort each convoy with multiple BB's. I also Wonder what the RN could do now with regards to the carrier air Groups.
The Capital ship raider have a perilous lifecycle and it makes sense to suffer the Wear and tear of a deck-parked air Group. The royal navy and its carriers is constantly on patrol to investigate whatever rumors abound, and it would be very difficult to give them a permanent deck-parked air arm in the North Atlantic. If they dont, the 2 RN carriers are not clearly better than a functional GZ with Bf109's.

 

[weasel_airlift]

I for one cant wait to hear what Miketr is going to provide. Its not like the RN is toothless, but they are outpaced and cannot escort each convoy with multiple BB's. I also Wonder what the RN could do now with regards to the carrier air Groups.
The Capital ship raider have a perilous lifecycle and it makes sense to suffer the Wear and tear of a deck-parked air Group. The royal navy and its carriers is constantly on patrol to investigate whatever rumors abound, and it would be very difficult to give them a permanent deck-parked air arm in the North Atlantic. If they dont, the 2 RN carriers are not clearly better than a functional GZ with Bf109's.

No no, the RN is by no means toothless, but they have a disadvantage. They have to keep...I'd say not less than 5 battleships and two carriers tied up to Scapa just in case at all times, AND they have to keep at least some presence in the Med, I'd say not less than three battleships and one carrier, plus at least some force in the Far East as well.

There's also the very real possibility that Italy will be emboldened by German success, and strike earlier than OTL. Even having the same success as OTL and knocking a pair of battleships out of action for a year could break the RN's back if they pulled that in, say September. The RN then must transfer more assets to the Med. The RN is old, the ships need to be on station a lot, and will consequently need more maintenance. They could flat out run out of battleships.

 

[miketr]

A sortie fleet has certain advantages in that they head out at a time of their choosing. The Germans have two battleships available with Bismarck and Scharnhorst. I am strongly debating having the two sortie over the summer for a raiding cruise. The catch is when they return they will without a doubt require an overhaul. Which would make them unavailable to head out with the others later on.

Plus and minus to all options.

As to RN yes they are going to have to keep a force together to face the German threat. The British will relax a bit once they get confirmation of the German ships in the yards for repair.

Michael

 

[Gudestein]

A sortie fleet has certain advantages in that they head out at a time of their choosing. The Germans have two battleships available with Bismarck and Scharnhorst. I am strongly debating having the two sortie over the summer for a raiding cruise. The catch is when they return they will without a doubt require an overhaul. Which would make them unavailable to head out with the others later on.

Plus and minus to all options.

As to RN yes they are going to have to keep a force together to face the German threat. The British will relax a bit once they get confirmation of the German ships in the yards for repair.

Michael

OTL the Germans did mini raids as with the sinking of Rawalpindi.
A short feint of a raid or two to stress the British might be just the thing.

 

[miketr]

OTL the Germans did mini raids as with the sinking of Rawalpindi.
A short feint of a raid or two to stress the British might be just the thing.

Leaning towards having one of the remaining pocket BBs and or one of the CAs (in this time line they have same hull and engine as pocket BBs) head out for such a raid.

Michael

 

[miketr]

Thinking more and more about the British response and I think in long term HMS Vanguard will get laid down and perhaps a second. Of course odds are neither will see service by end of the war but who knows.

Michael