Diesel Kriegsmarine

[hipper]

If you want to go into traditions and rules (and there more like guidelines) then don’t forget that the country going after the merchant ships is supposed to stop the ship inspect the ship and if it has restricted cargo then you are supposed to provide for the crew after you sink the ship.
On top of this normally neutral shipping only gets involved within a very short distance of the coast of a belligerent country not in the middle of the ocean.

The US is perfectly within its rights to make sure that non belligerent ships in the middle of international waters are not being attacked.

So if you want to tell the US that they have to live by the so called rules then your side better be doing the same.

Therefore I expect the following.
A list of contraband with a reasonable list of what is allowed.
I expect a CLEARLY defined combat / restricted area.
I expect you to stop and inspect and to remove the crews to safety (good luck with that MR U Boat )
I expect that anything on the permitted category to be allowed to go on.
And I expect you to keep clear of ships outside the zone.

If you want to restrict the US then you have to restrict everyone. The fact remains that technology has changed faster then the so called rules of warfare. And that almost everyone bent or broke those rules whenever it benefited them to begin with so acting like the US was being bad for escorting ships in traditionally neutral waters when you are randomly blowing up neutral flagged ships in said waters is hypocrisy of the first order.

And I still say in this particular example the blame falls as much (if not more) on the side of Germany yes the US was pushing it but so was Germany. The trouble with brinkmanship is that it is easy to accidentally cross the line. And anytime you have ships within gun range of each other you have a problem. The German commander can NOT be so stupid that he thinks that he can go in and randomly start sinking ships within gun range of US battleships. And that goes double for US flagged ships.

And frankly the legal bs is besides the point. The real question is how does this look to Joe average? And it looks bad for Germany. This is getting sold in the US and the rest of the neutral world as the US was doing a Nutrality patrol to insure the right of neutral shipping to sail the international high seas when the German navy deliberately intercepted the US ships and a group of neutral unarmed innocents merchants and demanded that the US ships leave the poor merchants to be destroyed by the evil Germans.

Who shot first is beside the point. If you have a gun and a bad guy has a gun pointed at you are you going to wait for the bad guy to shot first? No and nobody is going to expect you to. And being out gunned and out numbered just makes that worse. No one is going to have problems with the US shooting first in this case.

The poor Americans trying to protect the innocent neutral merchants never had a chance but they went down swinging. And tha crew of the one merchant ship that got away that just happened to only have food and baby supplies onboard are going to Be paraded through every main street in the US as the face of the people that America’s sons died to protect.

This is going down the same as the following would. Gang A is in a street war with Gang B. A cop walking the street is in the area of a group of folks that are not part of either gang but are friends with gang B. Two Gang A members come up with guns drawn and tell the cop to get lost. And surprise surprise the cop shoots first.
Is the perfectly the same? Not really as legally it is an interesting argument with the ships but it is sure they way it will be seen everywhere but in Germany, and the end result is a pissed off US declaring war on Germany. And unlike OTL the whole country is going to be fighting made. Basically you just created a WW1 Peril Harbor.

The Legal BS was established by America in the ACW.

1. The blockading power has to publish a list of Contraband - but that list can be unreasonable.
2. There is no Clearly defined blockade area, The RN took German passengers prisoner from a Japanese Liner in the sea of Japan in early 1941.
3. The blockading power can require the neutral ship to go to an Inspecting Port, after which it is theoretically free to go on to its original destination minus any contraband.
4. Submarine action by all navies in WW2 broke the existing laws of Blockade.

If the USN interfered with the KM while exercising its rights as a belligerent power then either

a) The action of the USN admiral needs to be disavowed by the United States Government, usually with compensation would be offered after arbitration.
b) Germany can consider itself at war with the United States.
c) Germany can accept the behaviour of the USN and maintain the status Quo. Implicitly assenting to the USN's right to convoy its merchant ships.

The international law of the sea is a reflection that Might makes right. The strongest navy can do what it wants to do whatever the law may say. The existing rules of blockade were convenient for the UK as they were hard for the US to disavow due to precedent set during the ACW.

 

[miketr]

German surface vessels as a general statement followed 'cruiser rules'. Where by they would either take the crews off or setting them into life rafts before the ship was sunk. Merchantships that attempted to flee surface raiders would be fired upon. Ships that refused orders would be fired upon. See London Treaty Article 22.

As was pointed out at Nuremberg after the war the USN and Kriegsmarine conducted unrestricted submarine warfare against enemy merchant ships. Doenitz while convicted of war crimes was not convicted on the charge because of the conduct U Boat arm. Court took dim view on Kriegsmarine conduct with respect to the commando order.

In the story the Germans here demanded to be able to inspect the ships in the convoy. USN refused and both sides issued threats at one another. USN then opened fired and Kriegsmarine returned fire. The Germans had more guns and bigger ones, USN ships went blub... blub... blub...



Michael

 

[Tursiops Amicus]

If you want to go into traditions and rules (and there more like guidelines) then don’t forget that the country going after the merchant ships is supposed to stop the ship inspect the ship and if it has restricted cargo then you are supposed to provide for the crew after you sink the ship.
On top of this normally neutral shipping only gets involved within a very short distance of the coast of a belligerent country not in the middle of the ocean.

The US is perfectly within its rights to make sure that non belligerent ships in the middle of international waters are not being attacked.

So if you want to tell the US that they have to live by the so called rules then your side better be doing the same.

Therefore I expect the following.
A list of contraband with a reasonable list of what is allowed.
I expect a CLEARLY defined combat / restricted area.
I expect you to stop and inspect and to remove the crews to safety (good luck with that MR U Boat )
I expect that anything on the permitted category to be allowed to go on.
And I expect you to keep clear of ships outside the zone.

If you want to restrict the US then you have to restrict everyone. The fact remains that technology has changed faster then the so called rules of warfare. And that almost everyone bent or broke those rules whenever it benefited them to begin with so acting like the US was being bad for escorting ships in traditionally neutral waters when you are randomly blowing up neutral flagged ships in said waters is hypocrisy of the first order.

And I still say in this particular example the blame falls as much (if not more) on the side of Germany yes the US was pushing it but so was Germany. The trouble with brinkmanship is that it is easy to accidentally cross the line. And anytime you have ships within gun range of each other you have a problem. The German commander can NOT be so stupid that he thinks that he can go in and randomly start sinking ships within gun range of US battleships. And that goes double for US flagged ships.

And frankly the legal bs is besides the point. The real question is how does this look to Joe average? And it looks bad for Germany. This is getting sold in the US and the rest of the neutral world as the US was doing a Nutrality patrol to insure the right of neutral shipping to sail the international high seas when the German navy deliberately intercepted the US ships and a group of neutral unarmed innocents merchants and demanded that the US ships leave the poor merchants to be destroyed by the evil Germans.

Who shot first is beside the point. If you have a gun and a bad guy has a gun pointed at you are you going to wait for the bad guy to shot first? No and nobody is going to expect you to. And being out gunned and out numbered just makes that worse. No one is going to have problems with the US shooting first in this case.

The poor Americans trying to protect the innocent neutral merchants never had a chance but they went down swinging. And tha crew of the one merchant ship that got away that just happened to only have food and baby supplies onboard are going to Be paraded through every main street in the US as the face of the people that America’s sons died to protect.

This is going down the same as the following would. Gang A is in a street war with Gang B. A cop walking the street is in the area of a group of folks that are not part of either gang but are friends with gang B. Two Gang A members come up with guns drawn and tell the cop to get lost. And surprise surprise the cop shoots first.
Is the perfectly the same? Not really as legally it is an interesting argument with the ships but it is sure they way it will be seen everywhere but in Germany, and the end result is a pissed off US declaring war on Germany. And unlike OTL the whole country is going to be fighting made. Basically you just created a WW1 Peril Harbor.

By your own example:

Is like if police is in a shooting with gang A and suddenly friends of that gang appear with more weapons for the gang. When police tries to stop them they shoot back in response. The police then shoot to kill and they end badly.

 

[DougM]

I think your missing the point. The legalities are besides the point. FDR is not standing in front of congress discussing the legality of the situation. He is standing in front of them talking about the infamy of the dastardly attack and how the brave nave crews went down swinging
So who had the league right to do what is frankly besides the point.

The other points you are all missing is.

Unless I didn’t see it the Germans are I assume still conducting some form of unrestricted submarine warfare and are thus sinking ships without searching them or protecting the crews. Yes IOTL the USN does the same in the Pacific but that has not happened yet as as far as I know.

This appears to be happening someplace beyond Territorial waters. Therefore this is happening in neutral water. So where does the Germans get off demanding anything? They have 0 evidence that these ships are going to England for all the actual know these ships could be traveling to Spain or out on a pleasure cruise. And without a declared exclusion zone then these are neutral ships in neutral waters and no they don’t have a right to stop and search. If I have a ship leaving New York bound for Brazil the Germans have no reason to search it. This is the same situation. This is why in the Cuban MC the US spicificly said where the zen was and why England did the same in the Falkland Islands. You can’t declare all of the Atlantic your personal pond.

Add in the mess with the English (if that happens) and they will be arguing who did what to whom for the next 100 years.

Yes assuming the Germans where playing by all the rules (something not truly stated in the op) and Assuming the ships are wishing some exclusion zone then technically the USN is in the wrong. But only an absolute idiot approach’s another counties battleships in an aggressive manor while outgunning and out numbering them and does not expect that this could lead to a shooting war. I have the legal right to have my gun in my hand while on my property too but I would have to be a suicidel idiot to approach the front road where a cop is standing with my gun out. No matter what legally have the right to do.

So you have two issues. One you need to establish why the Germans had the right to intercept the convoy (that exclusion zone). And you still have the issue that as far as 90% of the people in the US are concerned they willl either not know, not understand or not care about what the Germans legally could do. It WILL be sold as the Brave USN was ensuring that those Evil German subs did not butcher innocent Merchant Sailers with no warning. When the Dispicible dastardly Germany Fleat. A much bigger much more powerful fleat jumped the poor USN ships in the middle of international waters. Things got dangerous and confusing and the end result is that the USN lost its ships and thousands of men. And many innocent merchant sailers died when their ships where “Blown out of the water”

The end result is that the US is in the war and most US citizens are pissed and think the underhanded Germans started it all.

Personally if I am Hittler unless I personally ordered the Navy to start blowing US warships out of the water I am going to have the Officer in charge taken out and shot for getting me into a shooting war with the US. Because only a complete MORON does not see that this was highly likely to happen. Approaching enemy battleships with an equal or slightly more powerful battle feet of your own is brinksmanship of the absolute worse most dangerous kind. And is only made that much worse if your submarine fleet has been sinking non com flagged ships.
So either the Admiral has orders to start a war. Or he was grossly incompetent or he is the biggest idiot to command a fleet ever.

Frankly the whole thing is one step this side of ASB as I can’t see any Admral being willing to take this chance without orders to do so. In which case the reality is that Germany was trying to start a war and wanted to make it look like the US started it. For whatever reason.

 

[miketr]

With a declared state of war Germans have 100% right to force any civilian vessels they encounter on the high seas to stop and be inspected. If the vessel is flying under the flag of belligerent nation the vessel can be seized or sunk as the Germans decide. The Germans are fully within their rights here. By inspect they board the vessel, ask to see the vessels registration papers and the ships log. This would tell the Germans who owns it, what flag its flying under, what cargo and passengers it carries.

If the vessels is flying under a neutral flag, things get very messy. Using the British own standard, what the Germans could do but clearly were not, is the Germans could take a vessel carrying contraband to a port to face an admiralty prize court possible condemnation of the vessel and its cargo.

To be clear if a civilian vessel on the high seas refuses to stop the Germans are 100% within their right to sink the vessel.

 

[miketr]

Elbeübung (Operation Elbe) Part 3, October 5th and 6th 1941



At the start of the battle with HX-152 the makeup of Trägergruppe 186 was as follows.

1./TrGr-186 (12 Bf-109) (one down for repairs)

2./TrGr-186 (12 Bf-109) (one down for repairs)

3./TrGr-186 (10 Fi-167) (two down for repairs)

4./TrGr-186 (12 Ju-87)

5./TrGr-186 (12 Ju-87)

6./TrGr-186 (12 Ju-87) (two down for repairs)


As Graf Zeppelin turned into the wind eight Fi-167s took to the air. The bi-plane torpedo bombers were scheduled for retirement but they were still the longest range carrier based aircraft available to the Germans. Also Ju-87s delivers to the Kriegsmarine were running behind schedule. With two of the bi-planes down for maintenance the rest went out in search of the British. Each of the bi-planes carried additional fuel for the search.



At 1:15 one of the German scouts located their quarry, the British carrier task force, approximately 150 miles to the east. The British were steaming hard west. With a clear target Admiral Ciliax ordered his aircraft into the air. This would be a maximum effort attack, holding nothing back. While doctrine called for a mixed attack made up of torpedo and dive bombers Ciliax elected to make the attack solely with dive bombers. The strike would come in at high altitude in the hope of achieving surprise.



XXX



HMS Furious and Victorious hanger decks were swarming with activity as the crews tried to prep their aircraft for another attack on the Germans. Fighters and Torpedo bombers were already moved to the deck as the Germans arrived.



The three Gruppe of German Stuka’s began their attack from 20,000 feet with a gentle dive before at 10,000 feet when the dive turned very steep. The German dive bomber attack was textbook in its execution with the Stuka’s holding their formation tight. The Bf-109s followed behind ready to pounce on the British Combat Air Patrol.



The only problem was the perfectly executed dive-bombing attack made the Germans equally perfect targets for British Anti-Aircraft fire. Of the 34 Ju-87Es that started the attack, 12 didn’t return to their carrier.


The Ju-87Es pulled out of their dives around 1,500 feet and released their loads of PC-1600 armored piercing bombs that weighed in at over 3,500 lbs. The new longer ranged and up engined Ju-87Es could carry these massive weapons. Weapons that were far more powerful than the British deck armor was rated against.



HMS Victorious was struck four times, one smashed through the bow, ripping through five decks before coming to rest in the anchor chain locker. The weapon failed to explode as it lay among shattered chain links. The second smashed through the flight deck and hanger deck. The bombs path smashed a loaded torpedo bomber starting an inferno on the hanger deck but its final resting place was floor of deck 6, directly above the aft aviation fuel bunkers. As the 1,600 kg bomb detonated it sent shared smashing into the fuel bunkers. Soon another fire and a far more serious fire was raging on the British carrier. The third bomb passed through the flight deck, hanger deck, out the side of the hull to explode 10 feet away. Shrapnel punched several holes in the hull and causing flooding. The forth and last bomb also made it to the floor of deck six to explore just like the second bomb but this was midships, directly over the main machinery space. One of Admiralty boilers is wrecked by bomb fragments and flying deck splinters.



HMS Furious is hit five times by the wrathful Stuka’s. The first bomb passes nearly all the way through the ship and lodges in the double hull just before it explodes. Location is a key stress point and the Great War veterans back is broken as the keel snaps under the load. A twenty-foot crack opens in the hull. As so few survived the resulting conflagration its not clear where exactly bombs two and three landed but the most likely guess is the one or both landed in the forward magazine. The resulting explosion blows out the bottom of the hull and sent a column of smoke high above the dying carrier. The forth and fifth bombs deflect off a beam to ricochet into the ocean and pass through the flight deck, hanger deck, out the side of the ship and then into the water towards the ocean floor.



Before midnight the fires on Victorious have gutted the great carrier and one of her escorts puts a spread of fish into the side to assure she sinks.



***


On one hand the Luftwaffe crews on Graf Zeppelin are ecstatic having utterly smashed the British carrier task group. At the same time their own air groups has been savaged with half the fighters out of action and Stuka Gruppe will need some time to repair damaged craft.

Bismarck now has taken on 8,000 tons of water from the British torpedoes and American shells. Another 2,000 tons to counter flood and keep the list manageable. What’s worse is the flooding is continuing. Captain Lindemann reports he can make perhaps 10 knots otherwise the flooding becomes unmanageable and it will be some time to control the flooding. Lütjens orders Bismarck’s crew to abandon ship and the battleship to be scuttled. Despite a brief protest from Lindemann to be allowed to try to make to France on his own the admiral refuses to budget.

The American and British crews from the convoy’s escorts are allowed to be taken aboard several of the merchant ships Lütjens doesn’t have sunk. Still the loss of life is the greatest since the loss of USS Maine in 1898 with over 1,750 of the crews dead or missing in action from the two battleships.

***

In the United States the newspapers are just starting to react to events at sea. Meanwhile the US Navy already has its orders. Battleship division three made up of USS Idaho, USS Mississippi and USS New Mexico under Rear Admiral William R. Munroe puts to sea. Munroe is to link up with Rear Admiral Arthur B. Cook flying his flag from USS Yorktown sailing with USS Wasp. The two divisions are to locate and destroy the German battlegroup.



To be continued…

 

[Gudestein]

Very thrilling, a British miniature midway, but then the similarities end I suppose.

 

[Gudestein]

Just a few more questions. What kind of air wings would these two carriers have at this time?
And tactics? Weave not invented yet right?
Was the US AAA up to later performance levels at this time?
Logically speaking, its a powerfull hunting group out there, but they need to find the Germans, and avoid being found. Otherwise, they might suffer disproportionately high losses.

 

[Tannenberg]

How is the war going on other fronts?

 

[Gallienus]

SPAM deleted

 

[Petr K.]

I think changes in this time axis were not that big, Mikert did not allow to influence the ratio of forces until the Elbeübung operation. First great success was destroying of PQ 1. In this scenario, there will be a possible suspension of other arctic convoys to Russia. Even this success is not enough for a change of ratio of forces for battles in the Soviet Union. Admiral Lütjens was not able to sink any larger amount of trading ships in his operations. Miketr described two attacks on convoys: OB 325 + HX128. Neither of them was destroyed and the second one was a fiasco. The sinking of Hood, temporary damaging of KGV, PoW (both in the long run excluded from fight), Revenge, Victorious, Ark Royal (shortly excluded from fight), can hardly influence operations in the Atlantic or in the Mediterranean, maybe only Malta will have less defence fighter planes because of missing aircraft carrier in the area of the central Mediterranean ... The fact remains, that the disruption of supply of Britain is really not done. Miketr did not write, that the production of submarines was greatly increased (and especially at the expense of what weapon programs, Germany built three Bismarck class ships and two big aircraft carriers. Where can you get steel and workers? Shipyards would not handle construction program that big.), there was a problem with fuel, most of the reserves would be consumed by the Elbeübung operation, which has Kriegsmarine for its own need. Either Lütjens succeeds in this operation and sinks at least 500 000 British trading ships, or it all results in a catastrophy for Germany, but most likely the second scenario is probable; Miketr let sink Bismarck already, however prestigiously it may look, the sinking of two big British aircraft carriers, it is probably a long term success and Kriegsmarine, respectively Germany, needs immediate overwhelming victory...

I think Miketr wrote a good scenario of alternative history. Just a shame that it is not more detailed... Maybe Marschall would be a suitable German commander, I consider him more proficient in tactics and braver, but it is just my opinion.
I'm looking forward to reading more of your story.

 

[22000 Kevin]

SINP

Well I can say the Germans got all that Iron to build the last Bismarck-class Battleship from Sweden after winning the battle of Narvik Norway most likely there be less Panzer's but Hitler would not want to waste all his resources on the ship. And then what is all this talk of a "two" Aircraft Carriers No Germany has a converted Merchant ship that the Luftwaffe love to "borrow" without asking the Kriegsmarine and then the proper Aircraft Carrier the KM Graf Zeppelin and to sort out the fuel issue there probably getting it from Romania or from that coal to oil system I forgot to name. Maybe the Germans found all that oil in Austria that if exploited fully can produce 30 million barrels per year back in the 1930s but the pod had no mention of Oil at all so extremely unlikely to happen.

 

[DougM]

I am not saying that Germany is not within its rights (but you are going to have to be very spicific about said rights as the interpretation has changed radically over the years). I don’t realy care about the German Navy abd it’s rights. The problem is reality and the perception of the thing.
Reality is NO US Navy Admiral is going to let a German vessel sink a US flaged ship within the range of his guns any absolutely MO German skipper would be stupid enough to try it. Legally the Germans maybe covered but that is of slim value after your blown out of the water. Only a complete idiot uses a weapon within range of someone and expects the other side to not use theirs. It is insane to think you can use a bomb, gun or torpedo witching efective range of someone and not have them shoot back even if you are not shooting at them. First off misses and accidents do happen so you could very easily actually hit the wrong ship. It is even easier for your weapon to LOOK like it is going to hit. And then you have the simple nervousness issue that a bunch of people with hands on the trigger are all so nervous that someone is almost sure to fire in response.
So yes the German Navy (May) be within its legal right but that is not going to stop the 16” shells from the US battle wagon from blowing them to kingdom come.
As for perception. That is even worse. You are not going to be able to convince the average American that thier country was in the wrong because it’s Navy protected a bunch of innocent citizens/merchant marines on international waters from m getting killed by those “EVIL Germans” (tm) And perception is everything. And if you don’t think so explain the mess with the Lusitainia. The Germans even took out an add warning them the ship could be attacked and it still to this day has people thinking the Germans were wrong.
So the point is and was that Germany can not win in this instance, the story will be sold to the US (by the US and Britain and its allies) that Germany is a bunch of big evil meanies and it will end with the US upset with Germany and if enough folks get killed it will end up in war.
I have taken a lot of history classes at all levels and I have read a lot of history books and watch a lot of general interest history shows and basically none of these ever spend much time talking about who was legally right at Peril Harbor, or with the Lusitania or the start of the War of 1812 or the war against Spain. They spend a LOT of time on things like “To hell with Spain! Remember the Maine!” Not “Legaly the USS Maine was in the port under its own athority and Spain had no legal requirements to......blah blah blah..
So arguments about who is legally right are 100% besides the point in discussions of what will happen.
It is funny but this site seams to absolutely LOVE to discuss absolute minutia of events but at the same time we tend to lose site of what the average citizen in the US is thinking or how they will react.